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Poll

Do you wear sleeves above the elbow? Do you let your kids wear sleeves above the elbow?

Yes
29 (74.4%)
No
10 (25.6%)

Total Members Voted: 39

Author Topic: Sleeves Above the Elbow  (Read 10757 times)

1 Member and 14 Guests are viewing this topic.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Sleeves Above the Elbow
« Reply #135 on: April 02, 2026, 09:32:19 PM »
That's not a fair comparison, because modesty pertains to the Natural Law. Fasting pertains to Church Law.

I view it as Providential that more dense food is allowed than before, because with the Industrial Revolution and modern technologies, soils have become so depleted that food does not nourish as it used to.

If you speak to people who grew up on wholesome farms with mineral-dense soils, they will tell you that vegetables can be quite filling, while mainstream grocery store vegetables do not come close to being satiating.

As a result, my point is that the amount of discipline or self-denial it takes to fast today as opposed to back then is probably not much different.

Sounds like shifting the goal posts. Change is still change. Just like how Pius X condemned women in the choir but then Pius XII allowed for it. You're telling me that doesn't involve occasions of sin regarding the 6th and 9th commandment? That certainly involves the natural law.

Your last statement is curious. You say the discipline is not much different and yet you excuse the current agricultural climate to tolerate the looser penance laws. By that logic, you should have no problems next year eating no meat and diary for all meals the entirety of lent.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Sleeves Above the Elbow
« Reply #136 on: April 02, 2026, 10:18:28 PM »
Sounds like shifting the goal posts. Change is still change. Just like how Pius X condemned women in the choir but then Pius XII allowed for it. You're telling me that doesn't involve occasions of sin regarding the 6th and 9th commandment? That certainly involves the natural law.

Your last statement is curious. You say the discipline is not much different and yet you excuse the current agricultural climate to tolerate the looser penance laws. By that logic, you should have no problems next year eating no meat and diary for all meals the entirety of lent.
Is what I said true or not? Basic catechesis will tell you that Church Laws can change or be dispensed with, but the Natural Law cannot. The principle behind the Church Law cannot be dispensed with, however. Hence if a sick person is dispensed from the law of fast, they are not thereby dispensed from the universal law of penance, because in this case, their illness is their penance, so they do not lose any merit.

Pius XII was a liberal Pope who made poor decisions. But for the sake of argument, how would the mere presence of a woman be an occasion of sin? That's like saying attending Mass necessarily involves an occasion of sin, or going out in public anywhere. The occasion of sin for men comes from thinking of the women present and staring at them, not women simply being there. 

You misunderstood the last statement. I am not saying the disciplinary law itself is not different. I will illustrate for you examples. Eating a plate of vegetables from a good farm can be filling like a plate of meat from the grocery store. Both can involve the same satiation. Hence, the self-denial required today for fasting and abstinence is not much different than before, in terms of the fatigue that it brings. The same amount of fatigue could come from one meal and two collations with low quality food today, as opposed to one meal taken after 5pm with higher quality food from the middle ages. 

The personal physician of Pope Leo XIII, for example, visited country people who did farm work from sunrise to sunset, and they not only survived but thrived on a diet of mostly raw milk, potatoes and bread, with little meat. I doubt that kind of situation would be possible today because of how low quality the food is now.


Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Sleeves Above the Elbow
« Reply #137 on: April 02, 2026, 10:23:18 PM »
There is a certain standard of modesty that has to be kept always, a certain line that can never be crossed. We have been given that line. It is not for us to assess it ourselves and find reasons for and against, but to simply listen and follow. 

Re: Sleeves Above the Elbow
« Reply #138 on: April 02, 2026, 10:35:17 PM »
The Bishop of Belleville, Ill., June 15th, 1933, interpreted Pope Pius XI's directives on modesty as involving sleeves that extend to the wrists ideally, or at the very least, "reaches slightly below the elbow":



Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Sleeves Above the Elbow
« Reply #139 on: April 02, 2026, 10:54:29 PM »

This is blasphemous. Seriously? On Maundy Thursday?