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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on April 24, 2017, 11:29:06 AM
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Should apostate relatives be disowned? Or should one tolerate their apostasy (as long as this does not set a bad example for one's children) in the hopes of converting the apostate relatives?
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Sounds like a false choice.
We should be careful not to burn bridges with family members unless they present some sort of danger to us or our own families. That doesn't mean you "tolerate" the apostasy.
Chances are, especially if there's been no serious effort to engage the person theologically, that being "disowned" by you would simply be further "proof" that they need that religion and religious people are bogus.
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Sounds like a false choice.
We should be careful not to burn bridges with family members unless they present some sort of danger to us or our own families. That doesn't mean you "tolerate" the apostasy.
Chances are, especially if there's been no serious effort to engage the person theologically, that being "disowned" by you would simply be further "proof" that they need that religion and religious people are bogus.
Wrong.
"And a man's enemies shall be they of his own household." - Mat. 10:36
Their apostasy is the scandal, it's the "some sort of danger" that they present.
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What does 'disown' even mean? How would it be applied? Do you stop talking to them for the rest of your life? Or just not invite them over for cookouts? Who draws the line? If you take the extreme approach and cut them out of your life, do you also cut out all the OTHER non-catholics in your life - co-workers, neighbors, random people at the grocery store, etc? Should one even WORK at a non-trad-catholic business? Should you buy, sell or trade with non-trad-catholics? This would be the logical conclusion of your ridiculousness.
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Being a traditional catholic, means you are a follower of Christ. You are disowned by your family and friends and not the other way around. You are to be yourself. Think of it this way, you have the truth (like 1 plus 1 is two). So, the others are burning bridges. You don't change, you don't compromise. You still wish them happy birthday and etc.
Those of us who have been there and done it, know how it goes. It was my siblings who told me what I have is mine and not for them. So, they are saying, don't try to convert me. Now this is my family brought up as cradle catholics! I had one tell me she would have nothing to do with me. Another who told me I lost my faith. ( a protestant) Others who just plan don't communicate. That is their choice. And they come from no religion to New Order and they call that Loving your neighbor. At first it hurts and as the years go, you are used to it, sad to say. Yes, they do become a cold enemy and we pray for them.
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In order to disown someone, you must be first in a position of ownership, meaning having authority over them in terms of their relationship to you. If such is the case, you may indeed disown them. If, however, you have no positional authority, then disowning them is nonsensical. It's like firing a person who is not in your employ!
Just because you can disown a family member doesn't mean you should do so. Example, I can technically disown my nephews who were baptized Catholics and now, as young adults, live as if God doesn't exist, in a state of complete indifferentism. Since they were raised by a religiously ignorant Catholic mother and a "not-religious" Protestant, it is unwise to "disown" them. If they are to hear the Truth from any family member, it will be from me. Maybe your situation is different. Perhaps your relatives' behavior is blasphemous or seriously scandalous. Then it may be your duty to disown them.
When it comes to family or associates over whom you lack authority, you may choose to distance yourself, cut off all contact forever, or anything in between. What effect does the apostasy have upon you and upon those in your charge? Do you have an obligation to the apostates? Example, your elderly parents have denounced the Faith. If they are in need of physical sustenance, as their child, you may not disown them. You lack authority over them, and you're obligated by honor and charity to provide for them.
As for "disowning" colleagues, employers, dealings with non-Catholics, good luck to you! I hope you can be totally self-sufficient by yourself without any but homemade supplies, food, services, etc.
We are in the world, but of it.
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Should apostate relatives be disowned? Or should one tolerate their apostasy (as long as this does not set a bad example for one's children) in the hopes of converting the apostate relatives?
Tolerating apostasy will never convert an apostate. I wonder how you define apostasy?
More and more we have random, vague, incomplete, anonymous threads. Why don't you come back and at least identify yourself as "OP" and answer the questions? Otherwise it is all too confusing.
I agree with Songbird, because if the person was really an apostate they will "disown" you.
Have you discussed religion with alleged apostate?
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I think that different circuмstances and situations may require different answers to the seemingly same situation. What is required is much discernment, prudence, and prayer.
There was a story about St Dominic Savio. One day he was out with one of his friends and he heard someone say something very bad. He corrected the man and the man in question apologized and promised to me more careful in the future. Another time later that day he they heard some one else say the same thing and St Dominic said nothing. His friend asked him why he corrected the first man and not the other. St. Dominic answered that in the first case it did some good. The man heard him and he corrected himself. In the second case he said that he could see that id would do no good to say anything.
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Tolerating apostasy will never convert an apostate.
I'm the OP. It looks like "apostasy" is not the correct term I meant; I mean "bad Catholic" (see the (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/'lapsed-catholic'-apostate/msg548674/#msg548674)St. Peter Julian Eymard (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/'lapsed-catholic'-apostate/msg548674/#msg548674)quote here (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/'lapsed-catholic'-apostate/msg548674/#msg548674)).
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Should apostate relatives be disowned? Or should one tolerate their apostasy (as long as this does not set a bad example for one's children) in the hopes of converting the apostate relatives?
In that case the above should read
Should bad Catholic relatives be disowned? Or should one tolerate their bad Catholic modus operandi (as long as this does not set a bad example for one's children) in the hopes of converting the bad Catholic relatives?
I would say that it would say it is a matter of degrees and sins involved.
Don't allow your children to be scandalised,
neither should you cut off your nose to spite your face.
And remember that each relative is an individual person with different ways of acting and responding.
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I have a Catholic friend who left the Church, is now Protestant, and after much prayer and trying to help her come back to the Church (just even give me a hearing, which she refused to do) I have not contacted her in a couple years. The Scripture says in Titus "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid." She was always talking about her new "belief" being "born again" etc. I had to separate. It's quite sad, but necessary, I believe, sometimes.
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Being a traditional catholic, means you are a follower of Christ. You are disowned by your family and friends and not the other way around. You are to be yourself. Think of it this way, you have the truth (like 1 plus 1 is two). So, the others are burning bridges. You don't change, you don't compromise. You still wish them happy birthday and etc.
Those of us who have been there and done it, know how it goes. It was my siblings who told me what I have is mine and not for them. So, they are saying, don't try to convert me. Now this is my family brought up as cradle catholics! I had one tell me she would have nothing to do with me. Another who told me I lost my faith. ( a protestant) Others who just plan don't communicate. That is their choice. And they come from no religion to New Order and they call that Loving your neighbor. At first it hurts and as the years go, you are used to it, sad to say. Yes, they do become a cold enemy and we pray for them.
my whole family is against me and has been for many yrs. And that was before I even realized I really am a trad Catholic. Even when I was going to N.O Masses, which i have for the last several yrs, I felt I was different, more "old fashioned," didn't know what was "wrong w/ me" until I discovered, well, it really happened when i discovered this site. I began to realize I have been trad all my life, well, ever since I found (re-found) Jesus anyway. Maybe i never would have "lost Him" as it were (LOL) if I had been in the trad Church all this time. But anyhow, yeh, about family all hating you. Jesus said they would (Mk 13:13 and etc).
And yes, it does hurt at first but you get used to it. People who choose their family members or others over Jesus are not worthy of Him.. and He says this himself. I cannot even carry on a normal conversation w/ my N.O family.. which tells you everything you need to know about N.O, right?
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They disowned me and then I disowned them
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Being a traditional catholic, means you are a follower of Christ. You are disowned by your family and friends and not the other way around. You are to be yourself. Think of it this way, you have the truth (like 1 plus 1 is two). So, the others are burning bridges. You don't change, you don't compromise. You still wish them happy birthday and etc.
Those of us who have been there and done it, know how it goes. It was my siblings who told me what I have is mine and not for them. So, they are saying, don't try to convert me. Now this is my family brought up as cradle catholics! I had one tell me she would have nothing to do with me. Another who told me I lost my faith. ( a protestant) Others who just plan don't communicate. That is their choice. And they come from no religion to New Order and they call that Loving your neighbor. At first it hurts and as the years go, you are used to it, sad to say. Yes, they do become a cold enemy and we pray for them.
Do you go to SSPX? What aspect about your faith do your siblings find so troubling that they want to do nothing to do with you? If they are from the same family how can some of them be from no religion while some come from Novus Ordo?
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Alright, this is what makes me cringe in the SSPX. We have the hardliners that make it sound like its the truly Catholic thing to do. So does a father disown his own adult son and grandchildren because he won't leave the Novus Ordo? Does a son disown his mother and father because they went once to a SSPX parish, but haven't returned yet because they struggle with accepting the truth about the state of the Church? Does a brother disown a brother because he joined the Sadavicantists, the "Resistance" SSPX-MC, or another traditional group. What constitutes an apostate? What constitutes drifting away?
Do you need your priest's approval/guidance before you call them an apostate and cut ties? Does it mean when someone stops driving 2+ hours to Mass every week? Does it mean someone who has had a bad situation with in the SSPX and stopped coming? Does this mean someone who left the SSPX or followed their fav priest elsewhere? I am not asking because I want an answer, but rather so people will just think. Its really easy to give someone else advice and draw a hard line, but come on. You get one family. Is this the way we want the SSPX community to be? We are the parishioners. People are influenced by the way others in the community act as well as what we see here online. This obviously was a question in earnest. Do you want to be shunned by your family or community when you have to make a hard moral decision and your feel you are doing the right thing?
There are MANY reason's why one might drift away. We have heard some pretty weird things from Bishop Williamson, Fr. Pfieffer. We have been told...things such as denim is too masculine of a fabric for girls to be around, one SSPX priest claimed that as priests they were part Christ and the parishioners carried the sin of pride of they questioned the priest's directives....but I would still be Novus Ordo if that was the case. If there was a clear line, priests wouldn't be leaving the SSPX. There are stories of sɛҳuąƖ abuse in Australia and Europe. There was the incident with Fr. Pfeiffer and the pedo priest Fr. Tetherow in PA. There are some scary stories within the SSPX, so why disown your family.
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Be as St. Monica as she was with St. Augustine, her son. You keep it to prayer and prayer can be consoling, guiding, instructing. I asked Our Lady if she would give me a dream, like St. Bosco. A dream to help me to see where our daughter was coming from when she "was" on drugs. I got a dream, and it made me cry, but I thanked My Lady, for she did help me to see where she was. We pray for everyone, as like Christ, forgive them, they do not know what they are doing.
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St. Francis of Assisi basically disowned his own biological father, saying that the bishop was his true father.
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St. Francis of Assisi basically disowned his own biological father, saying that the bishop was his true father.
“Hitherto I have called Pietro Bernardone father; but now I am the servant of God.”
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From Lord of the World by Fr. Robert Hugh Benson
Father Francis, who had been sitting in a lax kind of huddle, seemed to know his thoughts, and sat up suddenly.
"You are tired of me," he said. "I will go."
"I am not tired of you, my dear father," said Percy simply. "I am only terribly sorry. You see I know that it is all true."
The other looked at him heavily.
"And I know that it is not," he said. "It is very beautiful; I wish I could believe it. I don't think I shall be ever happy again—but—but there it is."
Percy sighed. He had told him so often that the heart is as divine a gift as the mind, and that to neglect it in the search for God is to seek ruin, but this priest had scarcely seen the application to himself. He had answered with the old psychological arguments that the suggestions of education accounted for everything.
"I suppose you will cast me off," said the other.
"It is you who are leaving me," said Percy. "I cannot follow, if you mean that."
"But—but cannot we be friends?"
A sudden heat touched the elder priest's heart.
"Friends?" he said. "Is sentimentality all you mean by friendship? What kind of friends can we be?"
The other's face became suddenly heavy.
"I thought so."
"John!" cried Percy. "You see that, do you not? How can we pretend anything when you do not believe in God? For I do you the honour of thinking that you do not."
Francis sprang up.
"Well—-" he snapped. "I could not have believed—I am going."
He wheeled towards the door.
"John!" said Percy again. "Are you going like this? Can you not shake hands?"
The other wheeled again, with heavy anger in his face.
"Why, you said you could not be friends with me!"
Percy's mouth opened. Then he understood, and smiled. "Oh! that is all you mean by friendship, is it?—I beg your pardon. Oh! we can be polite to one another, if you like."
He still stood holding out his hand. Father Francis looked at it a moment, his lips shook: then once more he turned, and went out without a word.
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All my immediate relatives who were raised Traditional Catholic to some degree....
"Traditional Catholic" is a relative term. Case in point are the numerous women on this forum.
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should they be disowned if they convert to Judaism or marry a Jєω?
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It's sad. If you are asking this question, then you have already written then it if your hearts. You are more list then they are.
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Charity requires us to pray for family members who have gone astray from the Catholic Faith.
There is no requirement to associate with those who have left the Faith though. If anything, to do so would be like ignoring the giant elephant in the room.
The only exception would be that in getting together the discussion would be solely centered on the apostate recovering their Faith.