Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on August 19, 2016, 04:27:16 PM
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What do you know about bishop Tom Sebastian of the SSCR? I have recently learned about him, and would like to know what your experience if any has been with him. I am getting mixed results from my research.
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The SSCR? What is that?
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Never heard of him, but I found this:
http://www.oratoryoftheimmaculata.org/clergy
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Found this on the Dimond Bros website:
http://www.SchismError.com/catholicchurch/bishop-tom-sebastian/
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His episcopal line comes from a bishop Duarte-Costa who was excommunicated in the 40s in Brazil:
http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/Costa_Consecrations.html
Msgr. Carlos Duarte Costa was a retired Brazilian diocesan bishop who in 1945 broke with the Roman Catholic Church to found the "Brazilian Apostolic Catholic Church." From him descend scores of independent bishops.
In the 1930s Msgr. Costa was the Brazilian bishop most outspoken in defending the poor. In 1937, at the insistence of the dictatorial Getúlio Vargas régime in Brazil, the Vatican forced Msgr. Costa to retire as Bishop of Botucatu.
Nonetheless, he continued in speaking out on behalf of the poor and, in 1944, was even imprisoned for several months.
Finally, in 1945, after protesting the Vatican's having assisted several nαzιs find refuge in Brazil at the end of World War II, Msgr. Costa broke with Rome and established his own independent church.
Over the next fifteen years, Msgr Costa, along with the first two bishops he consecrated for his new church, helped form in Latin America several other "National Apostolic Catholic Churches." Ultimately there were such churches throughout the Western Hemishere, from Chile to Canada, and even in The Philippines and Australia.
Msgr. Duarte Costa acted as (principal or co-) consecrator for several independent bishops, the first in 1945 and the last, shortly before his death, in 1961.
In the years since his death, however, the few bishops he consecrated have become the source of claimed episcopal orders for a immense number of clergymen (and even women!) saying they are validly consecrated "Catholic" bishops.
....11) Harold Norwood
.........a) John Christopher Simmons
..............I) Daniel Kanyiles
..............II) Thomas Joseph-Francis Patrick Sebastian
..............III) Michael George Charles
....12) Austin Randolph Adler
....13) Randolph Whitcomb Sly
....14) Richard W. Lipka
....15) Philip Charles Zampino
....16) Frederick G. Fick
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If you see an independent bishop, he's usually Duarte-Costa.
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The Duarte line bishops are, at best, doubtful; they are certainly non-Catholic in the same way the Old Catholics are non-Catholic.
I would stay as far away from Tom Sebastian as I could.
I would take issue with JezusDeKoning's comment, however. There are a number of Thuc-line bishops as well. If a bishop hides the source of his consecration, he is likely Duarte-line, but one should not assume this of any independent bishop.
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Someone wrote to me today with the following e-mail.
If anyone would like to have information about my Apostolic Succession or ministry, they may contact me directly:
MsgrSebastian@sscr.org (MsgrSebastian@sscr.org)
I have nothing to hide and while I am "independent" I and my clergy are fully Roman CATHOLIC and hold to no errors or heresy. We are certainly not "Old" Catholic who deny Papal Infallibility, etc.
[/pre]
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http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/bishop-tom-sebastian/
I'd double-check to make sure that it is the same person. Likely so.
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When I met him, he was just a simple lay person at Queen of Angeles Church in Newhall California.
He stopped coming to Mass there and very quickly I heard he was a priest just like that "Presto" next to a few months later we heard he was a Bishop just like that again
!
I got the feeling C.M.R.I. wanted nothing to do with him after that and I heard he got himself ordained in a questionable manner without any training.
If you are serious about wanting further information contact Fr. Dominic at Queen of Angeles in Newhall, California.
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I have met Bishop Thomas in person.
I also attended the conference he had with Father Hesse back in the early 2000s.
Stay away. He will sue any who expose him.
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To reply anonymous # 4: Wrong you are. Bishop Carlos Duarte Costa was a bad guy, a liberal. If he wasn't a Communist I would be surprised (which from the viewpoint of a true Catholic, is bad). For once, the pre-Vatican II authorities did something right, when they ejected him.
Regardless of his moral character, though, he had valid holy orders, and the men he consecrated bishop, and assumedly the men they consecrated, were likely valid as well. I don't consider having problems with the Liberal Pope Pius XII to be necessarily a bad thing. (https://www.cathinfo.com/Smileys/classic/farmer.gif)
Maybe there's another valid Catholic bishop who doesn't like Vatican II and Modernism (he is reputed to be traditionalist).
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Since Costa consecrated after he had been excommunicated, the consecration was not valid and therefore neither is the lineage.
This is absolutely INCORRECT and shows a complete LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of Sacramental Theology.
If excommunication means that one cannot validly ordain, then how are the Orthodox validly ordained?
This also implies a belief in the Cyprianic view of Holy Orders versus the Augustinian. The Cyprianic view is held by the schismatic East and is NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Do not speak of things of which you do not know.
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Show me citations, from moral and sacramental theologians, that state an excommunicate bishop cannot validly ordain or consecrate.
NOTA BENE! I explicitly said VALIDLY, not LICITLY.
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Dude. Breathe.
As I said, I talked the matter over with several bishops and priests, because I don't presume to know sacramental theology.
The unanimous consensus was that the costa line is not Catholic.
We aren’t talking about whether or not the Duarte-Costa line is Catholic.
The accusation is that the lineage is not VALID.
SHOW ME HOW IT IS NOT VALID. AGAIN THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE CATHOLICTY.
Am I clear?
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These threads which have the purpose of criticizing others should not be allowed to be anonymous. Have the courage to use your own name if you are going to do it.
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Trophy Club and Fr. Francis Miller OFM have competing chapels in essentially the same town. And, Fr. Francis Miller OFM and his group travel quite a way for this "mission" chapel. It is a large, long established, and lovely group of faithful. So, all of those faithful prefer Fr. Francis Miller OFM coming in and renting a strip mall to Trophy Club. I don't know why, but facts are facts.
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Since Williamson consecrated after he had been excommunicated, the consecration was not valid and therefore neither is the lineage.
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According to several bishops and priests, the unanimous consensus is that the Lefebvre / Thuc / Eastern Orthodox lines are not Catholic.
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Is fr. Francis Miller's lineage of sebastain or duarte-costa?
No, Thuc through Vezelis.
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"Not to give heed to fables and endless genealogies [lineage of bishops]: which furnish questions rather than the edification of God, which is in faith. Now the end of the commandment is charity, from a pure heart, and a good conscience, and an unfeigned faith. From which things some going astray, are turned aside unto vain babbling: Desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither the things they say, nor whereof they affirm." (1 Timothy 1:4-7 (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=61&ch=1&l=4#x))
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"It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain." (Titus 3:8-9 (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=63&ch=3&l=9#x))
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Can someone explain how excommunication prevents valid sacraments? Validity = matter + form, yes?
It's been brought up, a Cyprian understanding, as if it's held that those outside the Church cannot confer valid sacraments. . .
Do not conflate what is illicit with what is invalid.
I've never bothered to read texts on sacramental theology, but I'm guessing I get the gist of what's being argued.
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Saint Paul's advice was based upon his own experience of being challenged as a bishop by those who had doubts about his episcopal genealogy. The Corinthians, for example, would argue: "I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I am of Cephas; and I of Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:12 (http://drbo.org/chapter/53001.htm)) Saint Paul tried to explain to them that such distinctions are human ideas, which are far surpassed by divine wisdom. "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness. And again: The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Let no man therefore glory in men. For all things are yours, whether it be Paul, or Apollo, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; for all are yours; And you are Christ's; and Christ is God's." (1 Corinthians 3:19-23 (http://drbo.org/chapter/53003.htm))
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Then Saint Paul makes it very clear to the Corinthians: the requirements for good bishops are set by Christ, not by men, and it to Christ alone that bishops are accountable, it is Christ alone Who has any right to judge them: "Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. Here now it is required among the dispensers, that a man be found faithful. But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; but neither do I judge my own self. For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord. Therefore judge not before the time; until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall every man have praise from God. But these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollo, for your sakes; that in us you may learn, that one be not puffed up against the other for another, above that which is written." (1 Corinthians 4:1-6 (http://drbo.org/chapter/53004.htm))
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Can someone explain how excommunication prevents valid sacraments? Validity = matter + form, yes?
It's been brought up, a Cyprian understanding, as if it's held that those outside the Church cannot confer valid sacraments. . .
Do not conflate what is illicit with what is invalid.
I've never bothered to read texts on sacramental theology, but I'm guessing I get the gist of what's being argued.
Yes, you’ve essentially got it.
To really simplify it, in the Cyprianic view, one is ordained for the Church, and if one leaves the Church, the Holy Orders “disappear”, at it were. There is no indelible mark. This is what is believed by Eastern Orthodoxy, although not all Orthodox follow this as strictly as others. The Greeks are the most ardent followers of this view. They extend this even to baptism.. If a baptized person apostisizes, he must be baptized again upon returning to Orthodoxy.
The Russians are much more “liberal” in their interpretation. So much so that some Novus Ordo priests are received into Russian Orthodoxy without being ordained, but only “vested.” The Russians apparently do not have a problem with Novus Ordo ordinations..
The Augustinian view, accepted by the Catholic Church, is that ordination leaves an indelible mark on the soul, and if one leaves the Church, he still retains this sacramental character.
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I have met Bishop Thomas in person.
I also attended the conference he had with Father Hesse back in the early 2000s.
Wow! What a small world! I remember that conference. It was in the north end of the San Fernando Valley, not far from the SDA church where Fr. Schell was. Fr. Schell was there, and Fr. Perez too, though he wasn't a bishop then. I didn't know Bishop Thomas, but Fr. Hesse and the others were all friendly to him and to each other. I asked Father Perez about the bishop, because I was suspicious and he scolded me to be respectful, because although he was independent, he was a real Catholic bishop. I remember he even led the prayer at the beginning of the conference. I think he might also have been at Fr. Schell's funeral. Wow, after all this time it was Bishop Thomas all along! Thank you for bringing back memories of such holy and heroic priests: Fr. Schell and Fr. Hesse, may they rest in peace, and the holy and heroic bishops Perez and Thomas. God bless 'em. I will pray for them every day.
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A friend at church last week told me about CathInfo and how there is so much information on it, and now I know that it's all TRUE!
Right from the home page I clicked on this recent post about seeking information and BOOM! right there on the first page there is a link to a page with all kinds of information about this bishop. His date of birth, his education, his churches, a description of his apostolic mission, with a dozen links to Catholic encyclicals, which all look great - at least at first glance - but I need to actually read them to see for myself. Even pictures! And another link with the bishop's own words and his direct email.
And as if that weren't enough, there are even more posts with history and scripture and eyewitness accounts by people who have actually met the person.
Wikipedia has nothing over CathInfo. They don't give direct email where you can contact the person directly yourself. I mean, if the person's alive, who better to tell you than himself, right? And there's even an address and a map and directions!
Thanks CathInfo members. My friend is absolutely right, it's the BEST! I'm gonna click some more posts and discover even more!
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Since Williamson consecrated after he had been excommunicated, the consecration was not valid and therefore neither is the lineage.
:facepalm:
Even had the excommunication been legitimate, the bishops he consecrated would still be valid.
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:facepalm:
Even had the excommunication been legitimate, the bishops he consecrated would still be valid.
Right. That is Sacramental Theology 101.
Also Msgr. Perez is not a bishop but was somehow given this honorary title by some bishop in India. That makes no sense because only the Pope can give such titles. You can't just make things up because there is a crisis. Similarly, and I don't mean this out of disrespect to the dead, but I never understood how Fr. Leonard Giardina was called an "Abbot" when he was never installed by the Pope. I digress though...
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Right. That is Sacramental Theology 101.
Also Msgr. Perez is not a bishop but was somehow given this honorary title by some bishop in India. That makes no sense because only the Pope can give such titles. You can't just make things up because there is a crisis. Similarly, and I don't mean this out of disrespect to the dead, but I never understood how Fr. Leonard Giardina was called an "Abbot" when he was never installed by the Pope. I digress though...
I think Msgr Perez got his title from a bishop in the state of Kerala , India. And he'd probably say that St Thomas the Apostle gave them permission to issue honorific titles. How else could he have done so?
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I think Msgr Perez got his title from a bishop in the state of Kerala , India. And he'd probably say that St Thomas the Apostle gave them permission to issue honorific titles. How else could he have done so?
This is not the biggest issue in the world but a bishop can't just give someone the title. It ultimately has to be approved by the Pope...whatever.
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To Reply #19: I made a mistake, though I'm sure nobody noticed. The cathinfo staff sent me an e-mail that someone had responded to my reply. It sent me to Reply #19, which was actually responding to Replies #14 & #15, who retracted his (her) mistake anyway. Hope no one was offended. RCG.
Oh, Senior Member: good idea. If you want to talk loudly, identify yourself. I like it.
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Right. That is Sacramental Theology 101.
Also Msgr. Perez is not a bishop but was somehow given this honorary title by some bishop in India. That makes no sense because only the Pope can give such titles. You can't just make things up because there is a crisis. Similarly, and I don't mean this out of disrespect to the dead, but I never understood how Fr. Leonard Giardina was called an "Abbot" when he was never installed by the Pope. I digress though...
An Indian bishop incardinated Fr Gruner into his diocese knowing full well the impossibility of Gruner obtaining a visa to live and function as a priest in his diocese.
Traditional Catholic Bishops are least ensuring that people get valid sacraments.
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You have gotten off the topic here. The original question was,
What do you know about bishop Tom Sebastian of the SSCR? I have recently learned about him, and would like to know what your experience if any has been with him. I am getting mixed results from my research.
I went to the web site, The Oratory of the Immaculata and it says:
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His Excellency, the Most Reverend Bishop Thomas J.F. Sebastian, SSCR, is the Founder and Prior General of the Priestly Society of Christ the King (http://www.sscr.org/). Born on May 13, 1963, and raised in Southern California, he attended Saint John's Seminary College (http://www.stjohnsem.edu/) (for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles (http://www.la-archdiocese.org/)), then continued his studies at Mater Dei Seminary (https://www.materdeiseminary.org/) in Omaha, Nebraska. In response to a true and real need, His Excellency accepted the call to the Episcopacy and was consecrated in Kent, England, on the Feast of Saint Matthew, 1997.
The Oratory of the Immaculata web site does not give the name of the bishop who consecrated Bishop Thomas J.F. Sebastian, nor the church where the consecration took place.
Does anyone have this information please?
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You have gotten off the topic here. The original question was,
What do you know about bishop Tom Sebastian of the SSCR? I have recently learned about him, and would like to know what your experience if any has been with him. I am getting mixed results from my research.
I went to the web site, The Oratory of the Immaculata and it says:
,
His Excellency, the Most Reverend Bishop Thomas J.F. Sebastian, SSCR, is the Founder and Prior General of the Priestly Society of Christ the King (http://www.sscr.org/). Born on May 13, 1963, and raised in Southern California, he attended Saint John's Seminary College (http://www.stjohnsem.edu/) (for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles (http://www.la-archdiocese.org/)), then continued his studies at Mater Dei Seminary (https://www.materdeiseminary.org/) in Omaha, Nebraska. In response to a true and real need, His Excellency accepted the call to the Episcopacy and was consecrated in Kent, England, on the Feast of Saint Matthew, 1997.
The Oratory of the Immaculata web site does not give the name of the bishop who consecrated Bishop Thomas J.F. Sebastian, nor the church where the consecration took place.
Does anyone have this information please?
Stay far away from him. He is weird. I have met him in person, and so have some of my friends.
He has been known to threaten anyone with a lawsuit who reports anything bad about him. Hence, the silence.
All my friends who have associated with him and who have attended his Masses and retreats have now deserted him. That should speak volumes.
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Bp. Sebastian was consecrated by John Simmons.
The lineage is here: http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/The_Costa_lines-_P-T/The_Simmons_lineage.html
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We aren’t talking about whether or not the Duarte-Costa line is Catholic.
The accusation is that the lineage is not VALID.
SHOW ME HOW IT IS NOT VALID. AGAIN THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE CATHOLICTY.
Am I clear?
It could be that the Da Costa line is valid, but they are not Catholic.
However, if their line includes the ordination of women to the priesthood or the episcopacy then that placess their validity in question.
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According to several bishops and priests, the unanimous consensus is that the Lefebvre / Thuc / Eastern Orthodox lines are not Catholic.
That also appears to be the opinion of the Catholic Church.
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I saw on the Tradito Latin Mass Directory that a bishop(!) offers a TLM near my house. I went to the web site http://www.sscr.org/ It looked like it was from 1999 and was vague about the background of the organization and clergy. It says that he was "born and educated in Los Angeles" and "consecrated a Catholic bishop in Kent, England in 1997". This is irrelevant information for people who want to ensure validity. I recently emailed him asking for more information about himself. He didn't reply, which I find evasive. From what I've read in this thread, I'm glad I didn't go to that "Mass".
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I saw on the Tradito Latin Mass Directory that a bishop(!) offers a TLM near my house. I went to the web site http://www.sscr.org/ It looked like it was from 1999 and was vague about the background of the organization and clergy. It says that he was "born and educated in Los Angeles" and "consecrated a Catholic bishop in Kent, England in 1997". This is irrelevant information for people who want to ensure validity. I recently emailed him asking for more information about himself. He didn't reply, which I find evasive. From what I've read in this thread, I'm glad I didn't go to that "Mass".
The answer was already given on post # 4 and # 36
The website you linked even states it:
http://www.sscr.org/historyapostolate.html
In the fall on 1997 two of the Society’s members received Major Orders at Ashford, Kent in Great Britain, from the Most Reverend John Christopher Simmons (d. 2003), a traditional Catholic Bishop.
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Trophy Club and Fr. Francis Miller OFM have competing chapels in essentially the same town. And, Fr. Francis Miller OFM and his group travel quite a way for this "mission" chapel. It is a large, long established, and lovely group of faithful. So, all of those faithful prefer Fr. Francis Miller OFM coming in and renting a strip mall to Trophy Club. I don't know why, but facts are facts.
Aside from the town in Texas, what is "Trophy Club"?