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Author Topic: Seeking information about an independent bishop  (Read 10167 times)

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Offline JPaul

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Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2018, 09:26:30 PM »
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  • These threads which have the purpose of criticizing others should not be allowed to be anonymous. Have the courage to use your own name if you are going to do it.


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    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #16 on: May 19, 2018, 03:46:16 PM »
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  • Trophy Club and Fr. Francis Miller OFM have competing chapels in essentially the same town.  And, Fr. Francis Miller OFM and his group travel quite a way for this "mission" chapel.  It is a large, long established, and lovely group of faithful.  So, all of those faithful prefer Fr. Francis Miller OFM coming in and renting a strip mall to Trophy Club.  I don't know why, but facts are facts.


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    • Guest
    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #17 on: May 19, 2018, 03:48:38 PM »
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  • Since Williamson consecrated after he had been excommunicated, the consecration was not valid and therefore neither is the lineage.

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    • Guest
    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #18 on: May 19, 2018, 03:54:26 PM »
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  • According to several bishops and priests, the unanimous consensus is that the Lefebvre / Thuc / Eastern Orthodox lines are not Catholic.

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    • Guest
    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #19 on: May 19, 2018, 03:56:01 PM »
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  • Is fr. Francis Miller's lineage of sebastain or duarte-costa?
    No, Thuc through Vezelis. 


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    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #20 on: May 19, 2018, 03:59:54 PM »
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  • "Not to give heed to fables and endless genealogies [lineage of bishops]: which furnish questions rather than the edification of God, which is in faith. Now the end of the commandment is charity, from a pure heart, and a good conscience, and an unfeigned faith. From which things some going astray, are turned aside unto vain babbling: Desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither the things they say, nor whereof they affirm." (1 Timothy 1:4-7)


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    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #21 on: May 19, 2018, 04:00:40 PM »
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  • "It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain." (Titus 3:8-9)

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #22 on: May 19, 2018, 04:03:07 PM »
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  • Can someone explain how excommunication prevents valid sacraments? Validity = matter + form, yes?

    It's been brought up, a Cyprian understanding, as if it's held that those outside the Church cannot confer valid sacraments. . .

    Do not conflate what is illicit with what is invalid.

    I've never bothered to read texts on sacramental theology, but I'm guessing I get the gist of what's being argued.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


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    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #23 on: May 19, 2018, 04:06:00 PM »
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  • Saint Paul's advice was based upon his own experience of being challenged as a bishop by those who had doubts about his episcopal genealogy. The Corinthians, for example, would argue: "I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I am of Cephas; and I of Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:12) Saint Paul tried to explain to them that such distinctions are human ideas, which are far surpassed by divine wisdom. "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness. And again: The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Let no man therefore glory in men. For all things are yours, whether it be Paul, or Apollo, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; for all are yours; And you are Christ's; and Christ is God's." (1 Corinthians 3:19-23)

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    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #24 on: May 19, 2018, 04:07:15 PM »
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  • Then Saint Paul makes it very clear to the Corinthians: the requirements for good bishops are set by Christ, not by men, and it to Christ alone that bishops are accountable, it is Christ alone Who has any right to judge them: "Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. Here now it is required among the dispensers, that a man be found faithful. But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; but neither do I judge my own self. For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord. Therefore judge not before the time; until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall every man have praise from God. But these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollo, for your sakes; that in us you may learn, that one be not puffed up against the other for another, above that which is written." (1 Corinthians 4:1-6)

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    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #25 on: May 19, 2018, 04:33:20 PM »
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  • Can someone explain how excommunication prevents valid sacraments? Validity = matter + form, yes?

    It's been brought up, a Cyprian understanding, as if it's held that those outside the Church cannot confer valid sacraments. . .

    Do not conflate what is illicit with what is invalid.

    I've never bothered to read texts on sacramental theology, but I'm guessing I get the gist of what's being argued.
    Yes, you’ve essentially got it. 
    To really simplify it, in the Cyprianic view, one is ordained for the Church, and if one leaves the Church, the Holy Orders “disappear”, at it were.  There is no indelible mark.  This is what is believed by Eastern Orthodoxy, although not all Orthodox follow this as strictly as others.  The Greeks are the most ardent followers of this view.  They extend this even to baptism.. If a baptized person apostisizes, he must be baptized again upon returning to Orthodoxy. 
    The Russians are much more “liberal” in their interpretation.  So much so that some Novus Ordo priests are received into Russian Orthodoxy without being ordained, but only “vested.”  The Russians apparently do not have a problem with Novus Ordo ordinations..
    The Augustinian view, accepted by the Catholic Church, is that ordination leaves an indelible mark on the soul, and if one leaves the Church, he still retains this sacramental character. 


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    • Guest
    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #26 on: May 19, 2018, 07:18:17 PM »
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  • I have met Bishop Thomas in person.

    I also attended the conference he had with Father Hesse back in the early 2000s.

    Wow! What a small world! I remember that conference. It was in the north end of the San Fernando Valley, not far from the SDA church where Fr. Schell was. Fr. Schell was there, and Fr. Perez too, though he wasn't a bishop then. I didn't know Bishop Thomas, but Fr. Hesse and the others were all friendly to him and to each other. I asked Father Perez about the bishop, because I was suspicious and he scolded me to be respectful, because although he was independent, he was a real Catholic bishop. I remember he even led the prayer at the beginning of the conference. I think he might also have been at Fr. Schell's funeral. Wow, after all this time it was Bishop Thomas all along! Thank you for bringing back memories of such holy and heroic priests: Fr. Schell and Fr. Hesse, may they rest in peace, and the holy and heroic bishops Perez and Thomas. God bless 'em. I will pray for them every day.

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    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #27 on: May 19, 2018, 07:50:02 PM »
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  • A friend at church last week told me about CathInfo and how there is so much information on it, and now I know that it's all TRUE!

    Right from the home page I clicked on this recent post about seeking information and BOOM! right there on the first page there is a link to a page with all kinds of information about this bishop. His date of birth, his education, his churches, a description of his apostolic mission, with a dozen links to Catholic encyclicals, which all look great - at least at first glance - but I need to actually read them to see for myself. Even pictures! And another link with the bishop's own words and his direct email.

    And as if that weren't enough, there are even more posts with history and scripture and eyewitness accounts by people who have actually met the person.

    Wikipedia has nothing over CathInfo. They don't give direct email where you can contact the person directly yourself. I mean, if the person's alive, who better to tell you than himself, right? And there's even an address and a map and directions!

    Thanks CathInfo members. My friend is absolutely right, it's the BEST! I'm gonna click some more posts and discover even more!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #28 on: May 19, 2018, 08:23:09 PM »
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  • Since Williamson consecrated after he had been excommunicated, the consecration was not valid and therefore neither is the lineage.

    :facepalm:

    Even had the excommunication been legitimate, the bishops he consecrated would still be valid.

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    Re: Seeking information about an independent bishop
    « Reply #29 on: May 19, 2018, 09:58:16 PM »
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  • :facepalm:

    Even had the excommunication been legitimate, the bishops he consecrated would still be valid.
    Right. That is Sacramental Theology 101. 
    Also Msgr. Perez is not a bishop but was somehow given this honorary title by some bishop in India. That makes no sense because only the Pope can give such titles. You can't just make things up because there is a crisis. Similarly, and I don't mean this out of disrespect to the dead, but I never understood how Fr. Leonard Giardina was called an "Abbot" when he was never installed by the Pope. I digress though...