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Author Topic: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?  (Read 9514 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
« on: April 28, 2018, 08:07:21 AM »
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  • I see people here focusing on Billot, which is good.

    But what about Billuart, who said:

    "Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church." 
    (Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757) Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith, Article 3)

    Doesn't that corroborate Siscoe/Salza/Johnson/Loeman/Pax Vobis/Drew that the sedes have misunderstood St. Roberet Bellarmine?


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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #1 on: April 28, 2018, 08:53:12 AM »
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  • I'm not sure what Billuart's position has to do with an "interpretation of Bellarmine".  Billuart is his own theologian.

    This actually sounds a bit more like Father Ringrose's position.  He talks about jurisdiction, but doesn't say what the status of his "teaching authority" would be.  It would be interesting to read more, that's for sure.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #2 on: April 28, 2018, 08:54:35 AM »
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  • I'm not sure what Billuart's position has to do with an "interpretation of Bellarmine".  Billuart is his own theologian.

    This actually sounds a bit more like Father Ringrose's position ... or even a variant on sedevacantism.  He talks about jurisdiction, but doesn't say what the status of his "teaching authority" would be.  It would be interesting to read more, that's for sure.

    This was my post.  Not sure why this is in the "Anonymous" forum.

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #3 on: April 28, 2018, 09:05:53 AM »
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  • The relevance of Billuart's quote is that sedevacantists interpret St. Bellarmine as proposing a manifest heretic is deprived of office ipso facto (without any judgment or declaration of the Church).

    Billuart is saying exactly the opposite, and more than this, is saying that it is the more common position of approved theologians (i.e., not just his own opinion).

    Billuart explains the reason for this more common opinion a couple paragraphs earlier in the same article: "...the law and praxis of the Church require that a heretic be denounced before he loses his jurisdiction, not for his own benefit, but for the benefit and tranquility of the faithful.

    Even more importantly, this more common opinion (which opposes the erroneous and univocal sedevacantist interpretation of St. Bellarmine's words) is sanctioned by the magisterial teaching of the Church itself in the Papal Bull of Pope Martin V, Ad Evitanda Scandala ("To avoid scandal"), as Billuart once again teaches in the same article:

    "I say that manifest heretics, unless they are denounced by name, or themselves depart from the Church, retain their jurisdiction and validly absolve.  

    This is proved by the Bull of Martin V, Ad evitanda scandala, [which reads thus]:
    Quote
    'To avoid the scandals and the many perils that can befall timorous consciences, we mercifully grant to the faithful of Christ, by the force of this decree (tenore praesentium), that henceforth no one will be obliged, under the pretext of any sentence or ecclesiastical censure generally promulgated by law or by man, to avoid the communion of any person, in the administration or reception of the Sacraments, or in any other matters sacred or profane, or to eschew the person, or to observe any ecclesiastical interdict, unless a sentence or censure of this kind shall have been published by a judge, and denounced specially and expressly, whether against a person, or a college, or university, or church, or a certain place or territory.  Neither the Apostolic Constitutions, nor any other laws remain in force to the contrary.'
    Note that when Billuart says "or themselves depart from the Church," he means they themselves leave the Church of their own accord (not that by endorsing some heresy, they have departed from the Church):

    "If manifest heretics had to be avoided before their denunciation, this would endanger souls and generate anxiety of conscience, since there would be uncertainty as to who are manifest heretics, some persons affirming, and others denying, as actually happened in the case of Jansenism.  It is very difficult for lay people to know with certainty if someone is a manifest heretic or not, since in most cases the subject-matter of the heresy surpasses their understanding.  For all these reasons, the Council prudently decided that only those who have been denounced would have to be avoided.  These reasons, however, do not apply anymore once the heretic leaves the Church of his own accord."

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #4 on: April 28, 2018, 09:11:53 AM »
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  • PS: I started this thread in the anonymous forum because I wish to participate, but also wish to remain anonymous (which I think it not precluded by the rules of this forum).


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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #5 on: April 28, 2018, 09:17:57 AM »
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  • Here is a translation I found on the website of Mr. Siscoe and Mr. Salza (and no, I am neither one):

    Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P.

    The following excerpt from Charles Rene Billuart’s celebrated book, Summa S. Thomae, explains that heretical prelates retain their jurisdiction, unless a declaratory sentence has been issued by the proper authorities, or the prelate has openly left the Church. And to be clear, he doesn't say such prelates legally retain their office, yet lose jurisdiction (which is the position of Bishop Sanborn), but states that they retain their jurisdiction. Billuart also refutes a common Sedevacantist error which maintains the Catholics are forbidden to receive the sacraments from undeclared heretics – that is, heretical clerics who are being tolerated by the Church.  This is founded on his teaching that they retain their jurisdiction.


    Summa S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757)

    Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith.

    ~ Article 3 ~

    "I say that manifest heretics, unless they are denounced by name, or themselves depart from the Church, retain their jurisdiction and validly absolve.  This is proved by the Bull of Martin V, Ad evitanda scandala, [which reads thus]:

    Quote
    'To avoid the scandals and the many perils that can befall timorous consciences, we mercifully grant to the faithful of Christ, by the force of this decree (tenore praesentium), that henceforth no one will be obliged, under the pretext of any sentence or ecclesiastical censure generally promulgated by law or by man, to avoid the communion of any person, in the administration or reception of the Sacraments, or in any other matters sacred or profane, or to eschew the person, or to observe any ecclesiastical interdict, unless a sentence or censure of this kind shall have been published by a judge, and denounced specially and expressly, whether against a person, or a college, or university, or church, or a certain place or territory.  Neither the Apostolic Constitutions, nor any other laws remain in force to the contrary.'


    "Then [the Bull] lists, as the only exception, those who are notorious for having inflicted violence on the clergy.  From these lines, we argue that the Church is granting permission to the faithful to receive the sacraments from heretics who have not yet been expressly denounced by name; and, therefore, that she allows the latter to retain their jurisdiction for the valid administration of the sacraments, since otherwise the concession granted to the faithful would mean nothing.

    "Our argument is confirmed by the current praxis of the entire Church; for no one today ... avoids his pastor, even for the reception of the sacraments, as long as he is allowed to remain in his benefice, even if the man is, in the judgment of all or at least of the majority, a manifest Jansenist, and rebellious against the definitions of the Church; and so on with the rest.


    "I have said in my thesis, 'unless they depart from the Church of their own accord'; for, by the fact that they depart from the Church, they renounce her jurisdiction, and as a result we infer that the Church does not continue to give it to them.  ...  If manifest heretics had to be avoided before their denunciation, this would endanger souls and generate anxiety of conscience, since there would be uncertainty as to who are manifest heretics, some persons affirming, and others denying, as actually happened in the case of Jansenism.  It is very difficult for lay people to know with certainty if someone is a manifest heretic or not, since in most cases the subject-matter of the heresy surpasses their understanding.  For all these reasons, the Council prudently decided that only those who have been denounced would have to be avoided.  These reasons, however, do not apply anymore once the heretic leaves the Church of his own accord.


    "Nor does it follow from thisas if there were paritythat no one should be considered a public sinner unless denounced; or that, consequently, the Eucharist cannot be denied to any sinners except those who have been denounced.  The difference is, first of all, that the law and praxis of the Church require that a heretic be denounced before he loses his jurisdiction, not for his own benefit, but for the benefit and tranquility of the faithful.  But the Church does not require a denunciation for someone to be considered a public sinner, or to be repelled from Communion, because the welfare and tranquility of the faithful do not require that.  Also, it is not the business of the faithful to pass judgment on the jurisdiction of their ministers, and often it is impossible for them to do so; but this pertains to the superiors who grant the ministers their jurisdiction.  It pertains to the ministers, however, to pass judgment on those who receive the sacraments. ...


    "The pope… does not have his jurisdiction from the Church, but from Christ.  Nowhere has it been declared that Christ would continue to give jurisdiction to a manifestly heretical Pope, since his heresy could become known to the Church, and the Church could provide another pastor for herself.  Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #6 on: April 28, 2018, 09:18:57 AM »
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  • The thing about having this conversation in the anonymous forum is that it is hard to keep track of who is saying what.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #7 on: April 28, 2018, 09:33:26 AM »
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  • The thing about having this conversation in the anonymous forum is that it is hard to keep track of who is saying what.

    Indeed, I would prefer to move this to the main forum.  Any reason we can't, OP.  I keep forgetting to check the "NOT ANONYMOUS" option each time.


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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #8 on: April 28, 2018, 09:37:29 AM »
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  • Indeed, I would prefer to move this to the main forum.  Any reason we can't, OP.  I keep forgetting to check the "NOT ANONYMOUS" option each time.
    I am the OP:
    Sure, that is fine with me, presuming moving the conversation out of the anonymous forum will not reveal my identity.
    Doing so will end my participation, but I am curious to see what people have to say regarding what has been said thus far.

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #9 on: April 28, 2018, 09:42:23 AM »
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  • I am the OP:
    Sure, that is fine with me, presuming moving the conversation out of the anonymous forum will not reveal my identity.
    Doing so will end my participation, but I am curious to see what people have to say regarding what has been said thus far.

    Why so?  Just register for an account with an assumed screen name.  Or do you already have one and are refusing to reveal it?  Why are you afraid of your identity being revealed?  It's not as if this is some sensitive issue of a personal nature.

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #10 on: April 28, 2018, 09:48:50 AM »
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  • Why so?  Just register for an account with an assumed screen name.  Or do you already have one and are refusing to reveal it?  Why are you afraid of your identity being revealed?  It's not as if this is some sensitive issue of a personal nature.
    If my identity were revealed, it would color the conversation, and for that reason I prefer to keep the conversation "clean," without the baggage that would come with revealing my identity.


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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #11 on: April 28, 2018, 09:56:25 AM »
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  • If my identity were revealed, it would color the conversation, and for that reason I prefer to keep the conversation "clean," without the baggage that would come with revealing my identity.
    Then make a new account. It'll be just as anonymous. 

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #12 on: April 28, 2018, 12:27:28 PM »
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  • If my identity were revealed, it would color the conversation, and for that reason I prefer to keep the conversation "clean," without the baggage that would come with revealing my identity.

    Well, I'm not all that interested in discussing this with someone who feels that his/her identity would color the conversation.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #13 on: April 28, 2018, 12:42:54 PM »
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  • I see people here focusing on Billot, which is good.

    But what about Billuart, who said:

    "Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church."
    Why would anyone take the bolded text at face value?  How would the common good be served by a manifest heretic having jurisdiction?  How would that situation be preferable to a vacancy?

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #14 on: April 28, 2018, 12:49:34 PM »
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  • I suspect Billuart, like G-L, is simply arguing that jurisdiction would be supplied. This is not denied by sedevacantists in principle. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).