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Author Topic: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?  (Read 9512 times)

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Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2018, 12:55:17 PM »
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  • I suspect there are many here who think they know better than Billiart, Billot, Pope Martin V, John of St Thomas, Cajetan, and the common opinion of approved theologians.

    Forgive me for having reservations in that regard!

    But if you would take the time to read the OP’s full quote of Billuart, the latter explains the precise answer to your question.

    How could you miss it?


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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #16 on: April 28, 2018, 01:01:20 PM »
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  • I suspect Billuart, like G-L, is simply arguing that jurisdiction would be supplied. This is not denied by sedevacantists in principle.
    I suspect Billuart is simply arguing exactly what he says he is arguing:
    That a manifestly heretical Pope is not 
    deprived of his jurisdiction without a declaration of the Church.


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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #17 on: April 28, 2018, 01:12:15 PM »
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  • It amazes me that anyone without at least a couple years of Latin would offer any opinion at all.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #18 on: April 28, 2018, 01:26:39 PM »
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  • The reasoning Billuart provides is identical to the reasoning provided by Miaskiewicz for juridical supplication in common error, for which he says there are no theoretical limits.  The idea is that someone who purports to hold an office (when they actually don't, but most believe they do) would have jurisdiction supplied to validate certain acts for the "common good and safety" of the Church, just as Billuart argues.  Why else would Biullart make the distinction that this is a special dispensation from Christ directly?  Keep in mind Billuart is writing prior to the codification of the Pio-Benedictine law.  At the time he was writing, it was still a matter of legitimate controversy whether or not supplied jurisdiction "was a thing," how it worked, under what conditions it worked, and so on.

    If it's an incorrect reading of Billuart then it's incorrect, but let's not pretend like it's obviously incorrect.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #19 on: April 28, 2018, 01:30:11 PM »
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  • The reasoning Billuart provides is identical to the reasoning provided by Miaskiewicz for juridical supplication in common error, for which he says there are no theoretical limits.  The idea is that someone who purports to hold an office (when they actually don't, but most believe they do) would have jurisdiction supplied to validate certain acts for the "common good and safety" of the Church, just as Billuart argues.  Why else would Biullart make the distinction that this is a special dispensation from Christ directly?  Keep in mind Billuart is writing prior to the codification of the Pio-Benedictine law.  At the time he was writing, it was still a matter of legitimate controversy whether or not supplied jurisdiction "was a thing," how it worked, under what conditions it worked, and so on.

    If it's an incorrect reading of Billuart then it's incorrect, but let's not pretend like it's obviously incorrect.
    Billuart is not here discussing suppletory jurisdiction, but whether a pope is deprived of his personal jurisdiction (I.e., ordinary) for manifest heresy, and concluding in the negative.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #20 on: April 28, 2018, 01:35:52 PM »
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  • Billuart is not here discussing suppletory jurisdiction, but whether a pope is deprived of his personal jurisdiction (I.e., ordinary) for manifest heresy, and concluding in the negative.
    .
    I realize he's not calling it supplied jurisdiction, but that's simply due to the lack of extant development regarding supplied jurisdiction among theologians and lawyers of the time, as I attempted to indicate in my previous post.  Why would Billaurt refer to what he's describing as something special if it were simply a matter of course that heretics (or heretical popes) don't lose their office?  Why is Christ's special intervention required if his position is (simply) that no jurisdiction is lost is in the first place? 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #21 on: April 28, 2018, 01:43:12 PM »
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  • .
    I realize he's not calling it supplied jurisdiction, but that's simply due to the lack of extant development regarding supplied jurisdiction among theologians and lawyers of the time, as I attempted to indicate in my previous post.  Why would Billaurt refer to what he's describing as something special if it were simply a matter of course that heretics (or heretical popes) don't lose their office?  Why is Christ's special intervention required if his position is (simply) that no jurisdiction is lost is in the first place?
    Supplied jurisdiction comes from the Church, and consequently had the pope lost his, there would be no special intervention of Christ to supply what the Church could have supplied without His intervention.
    That realization should indicate you are misreading Billuart.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #22 on: April 28, 2018, 02:17:03 PM »
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  • Supplied jurisdiction comes from the Church, and consequently had the pope lost his, there would be no special intervention of Christ to supply what the Church could have supplied without His intervention.
    That realization should indicate you are misreading Billuart.
    .
    We know that now, but it was uncertain when Billuart was writing. If you reference Miadkiewicz's historical survey on the development of supplied jurisdiction, it was not uncommon at all for pre-code authors (like Billuart) to argue that Christ directly supplied jurisdiction.
    .
    That such a supply comes from the Church was only clarified once the Pio-Benedictine code was promulgated. Up to that point authors argued for centuries whether or not a supply was possible, under what conditions, whether or not it came from Christ, the pope, the Church, etc. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #23 on: April 28, 2018, 02:34:15 PM »
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  • Supplied jurisdiction comes from the Church, and consequently had the pope lost his, there would be no special intervention of Christ to supply what the Church could have supplied without His intervention.

    This doesn't make any sense.  Mith seems to be correct.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #24 on: April 28, 2018, 03:05:35 PM »
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  • .
    I realize he's not calling it supplied jurisdiction, but that's simply due to the lack of extant development regarding supplied jurisdiction among theologians and lawyers of the time, as I attempted to indicate in my previous post.  Why would Billaurt refer to what he's describing as something special if it were simply a matter of course that heretics (or heretical popes) don't lose their office?  Why is Christ's special intervention required if his position is (simply) that no jurisdiction is lost is in the first place?
    .
    For that matter, I'm pretty sure that Miaskiewicz says that even after the promulgation of the code, a controversy persisted among canonists as to whether or not it was best to describe supplied jurisdiction as supplied directly by Christ or not.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #25 on: April 28, 2018, 03:07:16 PM »
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  • Mithrandylan's explanation does not wash: Supplied jurisdiction is discussed hundreds of years before BIlluart (e.g., at the Council of Trent, no less).

    Moreover, the title of Billuart's 4th discourse is "Vices Opposed to Faith" (i.e., heresy), and therefore the attempt to subvert and downplay Billuart's quote into some general discussion of supplied jurisdiction (against the plain words of the author who is clearly discussing whether and how a manifestly heretical pope can only be deposed by a declaration of the Church, lest the unity of the Church be fractured and divided).

    Yes, Billuart's meaning is plain and obvious.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #26 on: April 28, 2018, 03:37:09 PM »
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  • If I were you I would spend more time arguing the position, less time arguing it's obvious.  Maybe you're right, but I hardly think that you're clearly right, or that one couldn't reasonably read it otherwise.  For the record, I don't think what I'm saying is obvious either.  If you relaxed on the "obvious" schtick those who are unsure might be more compelled to see it your way.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #27 on: April 28, 2018, 08:19:22 PM »
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  • Perhaps Billuart is arguing in favor of the Cassicicuм Thesis.

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #28 on: April 29, 2018, 06:32:44 AM »
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  • Perhaps Billuart is arguing in favor of the Cassicicuм Thesis.

    What he's articulating sounds very much like it.

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    Re: Sedevacantism: What about Billuart?
    « Reply #29 on: April 29, 2018, 06:34:19 AM »
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  • Welcome back, Sean.

    Yeah, OP is clearly SeanJohnson here.  He told everyone he was done on the forum, but came back anonymously anyway.