Author Topic: Sedevacantism?  (Read 550 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Sedevacantism?
« on: March 20, 2021, 09:13:46 AM »
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  • True or false?

    Sedevacantism is leaving the Church because one does not like the Pope.

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #1 on: March 20, 2021, 09:21:07 AM »
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  • True or false?

    Sedevacantism is leaving the Church because one does not like the Pope.
    :facepalm:
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #2 on: March 20, 2021, 09:25:49 AM »
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  • True or false?

    Sedevacantism is leaving the Church because one does not like the Pope.

    Ridiculous should be a category. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #3 on: March 20, 2021, 09:35:20 AM »
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  • Not sure if this is a sincere question or trolliing, but ..

    That definition is closer to R&R than to sedevacantism.

    So, the difference between Sedevacantism and R&R is like the difference between an annulment and a divorce from an abusive spouse.

    SVs hold that the V2 papal claimants are not legitimate, so the obligation to submit to them doesn't exist.  R&R hold that the obligation to submit remains in principle, but does not bind them to submit to unjust or evil commands.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #4 on: March 20, 2021, 09:35:55 AM »
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  • Xavier, that you?   :laugh1:


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #5 on: March 20, 2021, 09:37:54 AM »
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  • Not sure if this is a sincere question or trolliing, but ..

    That definition is closer to R&R than to sedevacantism.

    So, the difference between Sedevacantism and R&R is like the difference between an annulment and a divorce from an abusive spouse.

    SVs hold that the V2 papal claimants are not legitimate, so the obligation to submit to them doesn't exist.  R&R hold that the obligation to submit remains in principle, but does not bind them to submit to unjust or evil commands.
    I think this is a fair analogy for the Sede side, but I don't think its really fair to the R and R side.

    R and R is more like staying married to the abusive spouse, but still not living together until they stop being abusive, or something like that.

    Divorce would be more like what Martin Luther did.  Muh Pope is corrupt so I guess I don't have to be united to him anymore.

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #6 on: March 20, 2021, 09:39:57 AM »
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  • Xavier, that you?   :laugh1:
    Nah even XS wouldn't give such a lame definition.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #7 on: March 20, 2021, 09:40:46 AM »
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  • I think this is a fair analogy for the Sede side, but I don't think its really fair to the R and R side.

    R and R is more like staying married to the abusive spouse, but still not living together until they stop being abusive, or something like that.

    Divorce would be more like what Martin Luther did.  Muh Pope is corrupt so I guess I don't have to be united to him anymore.

    Well, R&R is only married on paper but separated ... although the SSPX is moving closer to the scenario that YOU describe.

    Martin Luther is more like divorce + remarriage.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #8 on: March 20, 2021, 09:46:18 AM »
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  • Well, R&R is only married on paper but separated ... although the SSPX is moving closer to the scenario that YOU describe.

    Martin Luther is more like divorce + remarriage.
    I will be honest this is kind of why the SSPX Resistance position doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as I currently understand it (and it is definitely possible that I don't understand it.)  I understand the EO position that a Pope simply isn't necessary (to be clear, I'm not saying its an *acceptable* position just that I get the internal logic.) I  get the NO/Indult position that there isn't a crisis or at least that the crisis comes down to misinterpretations and whatnot.  I get the so called "New SSPX" position of saying we're in a screwball situation so we keep as much unity with the Pope as we can without compromising (at least theoretically.)  And I get the Sede view that we don't have a Pope right now, and we need one, though I think David Bawden was right on the next step of "OK well then let's elect one" though I think the way he did it was kind of ridiculous (really the Sede bishops needed to do this.)  But I really don't get what I see from a lot of the Resistance which seems more like "OK, he's a Pope, but that means basically nothing?"  I know some people might say that's a strawman, and its possible my understanding is inadequate, but that's how this looks to me ATM

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #9 on: March 20, 2021, 09:48:20 AM »
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  • Ah, I see the source of confusion.  With "divorce" I had in mind like a civil divorce, where you recognize that you're still married but are separated.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #10 on: March 20, 2021, 09:50:02 AM »
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  • Ah, I see the source of confusion.  With "divorce" I had in mind like a civil divorce, where you recognize that you're still married but are separated.
    There's truth to that, so I guess current SSPX might be something like "still have irreconcilable differences but actively trying to find a way to reconcile"


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #11 on: March 20, 2021, 09:52:30 AM »
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  • There's truth to that, so I guess current SSPX might be something like "still have irreconcilable differences but actively trying to find a way to reconcile"

    Yes, perfect.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #12 on: March 20, 2021, 09:54:40 AM »
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  • Yes, perfect.
    Which, to be honest, is kind of the position that makes most sense to me, but leaving that aside, its definitely fundamentally different than that of FSSP.  

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #13 on: March 20, 2021, 10:15:01 AM »
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  • What's the difference between a sedevacantist and a Jew? A Jew can be saved by baptism of desire.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #14 on: March 20, 2021, 10:41:51 AM »
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  • What's the difference between a sedevacantist and a Jew? A Jew can be saved by baptism of desire.
    LOL yeah I think once you get to the point where you're literally saying people who disagree with you on any aspect of the crisis are in a worse salvific position than an out and out non Christian you've crossed into theological insanity.

    And yeah, this does happen, and its ridiculous, and I criticize it whenever I see it from any side or faction.

    The Dimonds, and the bloggers over at Where Peter Is, both have a better shot at heaven than a Jew.


     

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