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Author Topic: Scrupulous husband again  (Read 2346 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Scrupulous husband again
« on: October 09, 2022, 04:51:45 PM »
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  • Hi all,

    I've posted before asking about my scrupulous husband. Today he actually requested that I post. 

    He went to confession today after becoming more or less convinced that he is actually lax and not scrupulous. He told the priest at the beginning of his confession "I think I am lax, can you give me advice for someone who is lax?"

    The priest did so. A while after this my husband did add that others think he is scrupulous. 

    He told me that he wanted the priest to think he was lax and that he thinks he lied and had bad will and that his confession and communion were actually sacrilegious because of this. He says that this just shows he doesn't actually love God. This is obviously upsetting for both of us and will not be a good thing for children to see as they get older. 

    Is this even a mortal sin? Did it make confession/communion sacrilegious?

    Also we live over 2 hours away from mass but he frequently is compelled to drive (sometimes in the middle of the night) all the way to the city in which there is a chapel, where he waits for a confession time. This is obviously also disruptive and expensive and I don't know how to convince him that he's not actually in sin and he should wait for Sunday.

    Additionally, when he gets very upset (probably 2 or so times per week) he cannot be focused in his prayers and so he thinks it's sinful to pray. This results in skipped rosaries... I feel that his understanding of this is incorrect but don't know how to back that up. 

    He basically thinks everything he does is sinful. If you give him 2 choices, he will think both are bad and he gets paralyzed trying to choose which one is the acceptable option. 
     
    Just not really sure what to do here but pray... 

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #1 on: October 09, 2022, 05:03:45 PM »
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  • He needs to do manual labor or something useful with his hands. Something tangible to get himself back to reality.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #2 on: October 09, 2022, 05:08:59 PM »
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  • He needs to do manual labor or something useful with his hands. Something tangible to get himself back to reality.
    He is logging and building and keeping busy every day right now. He has been for a while now. I'd say that helps his appetite more than anything else lol...

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #3 on: October 09, 2022, 05:22:36 PM »
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  • Hi all,

    I've posted before asking about my scrupulous husband. Today he actually requested that I post.

    He went to confession today after becoming more or less convinced that he is actually lax and not scrupulous. He told the priest at the beginning of his confession "I think I am lax, can you give me advice for someone who is lax?"

    The priest did so. A while after this my husband did add that others think he is scrupulous.

    He told me that he wanted the priest to think he was lax and that he thinks he lied and had bad will and that his confession and communion were actually sacrilegious because of this. He says that this just shows he doesn't actually love God. This is obviously upsetting for both of us and will not be a good thing for children to see as they get older.

    Is this even a mortal sin? Did it make confession/communion sacrilegious?

    Also we live over 2 hours away from mass but he frequently is compelled to drive (sometimes in the middle of the night) all the way to the city in which there is a chapel, where he waits for a confession time. This is obviously also disruptive and expensive and I don't know how to convince him that he's not actually in sin and he should wait for Sunday.

    Additionally, when he gets very upset (probably 2 or so times per week) he cannot be focused in his prayers and so he thinks it's sinful to pray. This results in skipped rosaries... I feel that his understanding of this is incorrect but don't know how to back that up.

    He basically thinks everything he does is sinful. If you give him 2 choices, he will think both are bad and he gets paralyzed trying to choose which one is the acceptable option.
     
    Just not really sure what to do here but pray...
    I think he needs to speak with this priest. 

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #4 on: October 09, 2022, 05:36:59 PM »
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  • I think he needs to speak with this priest.

    This^^^^. He needs to get a spiritual director and listen to him without argument.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #5 on: October 09, 2022, 06:19:08 PM »
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  • Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #6 on: October 09, 2022, 07:00:54 PM »
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  • At first you said that he was "more or less convinced" that he was lax, but then later stated that he wanted the priest to think he was lax, implying that he deliberately lied about it.  Sounds to me more as if he was uncertain.  But that is precisely the hallmark of scrupulosity, the inability to form a practical judgment ... so the scrupulous always spin ambivalence as certainty that he had sinned.  So, in his warped mind, being unsure that he was lax, by telling the priest this, he was lying.

    As to whether it invalidates the Confession, it would either 1) have to bear directly on some sin confessed (usually to make it seem less serious than it was) or 2) have to be done deliberately so that there was no intention to repudiate sin (how can there be when you are intending to sin).  But my guess is that, as per the usual modus operandi of a scrupulous person, he's deciding after the fact that he "lied" when in point of fact he was uncertain ... and the scrupulous spin on uncertainty is "If I wasn't 100% certain, that means I lied."

    So, this is indeed where the arrogance of the scrupulous is their biggest obstacle.  They absolutely refuse to listen to people who tell them that they're scrupulous.  Instead, they decide that these others are lax.  Here, by telling the priest he's lax, he's going to get the exact opposite of the advice he really needs.  But that's what he wanted.  He secretly wants confirmation that what others call scrupulosity is in fact the true reality (because his pride makes him cling to it).

    Bottom line.  HE IS NOT TO DECIDE WHETHER HE IS SCRUPLOUS OR LAX.  That must be left entirely up to the priest to decide.  And your husband MUST SUBMIT to the priest's judgment.  Period.  If he refuses to do so and to simply resign himelf to the judgment of the priest, he will end up losing his soul over it.

    There's some truth, unfortunately, in his assessment that he does not love God enough.  He's absolutely self-absorbed.  He's got to focus on loving God and not on sin and punishment and his own personal state of soul.

    As for not praying because he thinks he would be distracted, distraction is only sinful when it's completely deliberate (the chief problem scrupulous have, discerning whether something was deliberate).  Deliberate should be understood by a scrupulous person as:  "I'm saying the Rosary and I turn on the TV."  ... so some very deliberate intent.  Otherwise, the scrupulous should no be allowed to get away with fancying every inability to dispel distraction as being deliberate.  If the prayer is not required (i.e. such as assisting at Mass), it is better to pray distracted than to not pray at all.  There's a story I heard from a Jesuit.  So, a Jesuit asked his Confessor, "Is it permitted for me to smoke while I pray?"  His Confessor said, "No, of course not."  So this Jesuit then went to a different Confessor and asked, "Is it permitted to pray while I smoke?"  This time he gets the answer, "Of course.  We are to pray always."  So, if the prayer is not required, such as assisting at Mass on Sunday, it is better to pray even while distracted than to not pray at all ... as per the second category.

    At this point, since he's obviously refusing to submit to the judgment of his confessor, the only remedy for scruples, I think that your intervention is required.  I think that you need to go with him to the priest, make an appointment, and tell him everything you've written here.  Your husband can then try to argue his case that he's not scrupulous or whatever, while you give details to the priest about your perspective on the matter.  There's no doubt but that the priest will decide that he's scrupulous.  This would work similar to marriage counseling, where both present their perspective and let the priest try to make a determination regarding the objective reality.  Then your husband must submit and accept the fact that he's scrupulous.  He must submit to the priest's judgment.  This priest needs to command him never to refrain from the Sacraments unless he can swear before God that he committed a mortal sin.  Earlier when your husband implied that the priest needed to command him "under pain of sin," that speaks again to his arrogance.  No priest would add another layer of "sin" on a person who already thinks everything is a sin.  So he would then struggle with whether he sinned by disobeying the priest.  It would be an infinite loop.  He simply has to submit, without it being required under pain of sin.



    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #7 on: October 09, 2022, 07:16:56 PM »
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  • There's a story I heard from a Jesuit.  So, a Jesuit asked his Confessor, "Is it permitted for me to smoke while I pray?"  His Confessor said, "No, of course not."  So this Jesuit then went to a different Confessor and asked, "Is it permitted to pray while I smoke?"  This time he gets the answer, "Of course.  We are to pray always."  

    The way I heard the story, a person went to a Jesuit priest (and only one priest) and said "may I smoke while I pray?".  The Jesuit told him "well, look at it this, may you pray while you smoke? --- there you have your answer".

    Once while I was a nicotine vaper (I only vape nicotine-free fluid now), my confessor directed me to engage in daily lectio divina for a period of time, to address a spiritual issue.  I vaped while I read.  My conscience is clear.  (I didn't ask, I saw no need, as I had in mind the story as described above.  LD is not strictly "praying" but my point should be clear.)


    Offline shimano

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #8 on: October 10, 2022, 08:36:17 AM »
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  • How old is he? Are you fulfilling your marital obligation to him? If any spouse isn't getting what they need in that department, that could make them go cuckoo to some degree.

    If you're fulfilling his needs, then it sounds like he needs to get roughed up. He needs two or three men to give him a beating at the same time to snap him out of it. Seriously. A good old fashion beating should set him straight. :popcorn: 

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #9 on: October 11, 2022, 11:06:36 PM »
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  • He went to confession today after becoming more or less convinced that he is actually lax and not scrupulous. He told the priest at the beginning of his confession "I think I am lax, can you give me advice for someone who is lax?"

    The priest did so. A while after this my husband did add that others think he is scrupulous.
    .
    In general, your husband shouldn't be telling people what he was told in confession, but with that disclaimer ... I'd suggest having a discussion with this priest who heard his confession and telling him a lot of the same things you have posted about your husband on here. This would give the priest a more accurate idea of what is going on with him, and he could use that knowledge to help him provide better guidance to your husband.

    Scruples can be a scourge. Don't give up, but your husband has to accept what he is told to do without question, otherwise he will not get better. I would remind him of this often.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #10 on: October 12, 2022, 10:00:44 AM »
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  • How old is he? Are you fulfilling your marital obligation to him? If any spouse isn't getting what they need in that department, that could make them go cuckoo to some degree.

    If you're fulfilling his needs, then it sounds like he needs to get roughed up. He needs two or three men to give him a beating at the same time to snap him out of it. Seriously. A good old fashion beating should set him straight. :popcorn:

    :laugh1:  While this is partly a joke, there's some truth to it.  Sometimes people who get scrupulous do so because they spend too much time introverted and brooding over their own thoughts.  Some kind of physical challenge (akin to getting roughed up above LOL) would in fact potentially snap him out of it.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #11 on: October 12, 2022, 11:15:10 AM »
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  • His scrupulosity sounds to me like a temptation of the devil to get his mind on himself all the time and off of Our Lord and Our Lady.  He needs to keep himself occupied with various tasks, work, hobbies, spend time doing works of charity.  I suggest he pray also to his guardian angel and to St. Francis de Sales as he went through a time of temptation where he was absolutely sure he was condemned!  Read Surrender to Divine Providence.  It’s very encouraging in such matters, especially if your husband has a strongly melancholic temperament.  (Lax souls don’t normally worry about being lax!  The nature of laxity is not taking one’s spiritual state and sin seriously enough.)

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #12 on: October 12, 2022, 12:52:10 PM »
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  • His scrupulosity sounds to me like a temptation of the devil to get his mind on himself all the time and off of Our Lord and Our Lady.  He needs to keep himself occupied with various tasks, work, hobbies, spend time doing works of charity.  I suggest he pray also to his guardian angel and to St. Francis de Sales as he went through a time of temptation where he was absolutely sure he was condemned!  Read Surrender to Divine Providence.  It’s very encouraging in such matters, especially if your husband has a strongly melancholic temperament.  (Lax souls don’t normally worry about being lax!  The nature of laxity is not taking one’s spiritual state and sin seriously enough.)

    Indeed, St. Francis de Sales was given the grace to snap out of it by ceasing to focus on himself, almost saying that even if he is condemned, he's going to strive to do the best he can ANYWAY to love God.  At the root of scruples is self-absorption, focusing on self, rather than focusing on God.  "I wish to do good because I love God and wish to please Him." vs. "I don't wish to do bad because I don't want to go to hell."

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #13 on: October 12, 2022, 11:31:42 PM »
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  • He needs to do manual labor or something useful with his hands. Something tangible to get himself back to reality.
    This.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Scrupulous husband again
    « Reply #14 on: October 13, 2022, 05:35:28 AM »
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  • (Lax souls don’t normally worry about being lax!  The nature of laxity is not taking one’s spiritual state and sin seriously enough.)

    That's a good point.  If I were a priest and a penitent told me, "I'm lax," that should immediately raise eyebrows.