"Augustine says . . . (Enchiridion lxxxiii) that 'he who dies in a state of obstinacy is guilty of the sin against the Holy Ghost,' ...
I'm not sure what is is.Starting topics on the anonymous forum.
As the church's teachings on it are not clear?
what's the unforgivable sin?Final impennitence. You cannot be forgiven a sin when you die and are not sorry for committing the sin.
Final impennitence. You cannot be forgiven a sin when you die and are not sorry for committing the sin.Well surely that's because you're dead. very hard to go to confession as a corpse.
Well surely that's because you're dead. very hard to go to confession as a corpse.That's my point. Presuming the OP is still alive (and I think this is probably a real, real good presumption), I know of no sin that cannot be forgiven in confession if he/she is truly sorry for committing the sin. In any event, a forum isn't the place to confess it and he/she needs to see a true priest.
but I meant what did OP consider an unforgivable sin, seeing as he's presumably alive
Final impennitence. You cannot be forgiven a sin when you die and are not sorry for committing the sin.
People can in fact read the Scripture passage in question and misunderstand it to be saying that if you blaspheme Our Lord or speak ill of the Holy Spirit ... in a way that a Satanist might, the sin is unforgivable. But not so; that's not what Our Lord means here.My priest says that when people say that Christ is a sorcerer or that He works miracles through the devil, that is the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Typically, Jєωs sin in this manner as they are brought up to believe that Christ was a sorcerer.
My priest says that when people say that Christ is a sorcerer or that He works miracles through the devil, that is the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Typically, Jєωs sin in this manner as they are brought up to believe that Christ was a sorcerer.
My priest has had many years experience as a confessor. When people say that Christ is a sorcerer or that He works miracles through the devil, this is the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. They cannot repent of this sin, thus they cannot be forgiven in this life or in the next. When a person confesses this sin, often in jest, thinking that it is funny, they do not show any signs of repentance, thus they cannot be granted absolution. My priest has spoken often about this in his sermons warning people to avoid this deadly sin and to avoid those who joke about Christ or take His Holy Name in vain.
When I used to contribute to a Christian forum, which had a Catholic section, a man started a thread saying that he was quite certain that he had blasphemed against the Holy Spirit and he admitted to it. He asked for prayers as he was not able to repent, nor was he able to enter a church to go to confession. It was as if a strong invisible man prevented him from entering any church for the purpose of going to confession. Furthermore, he had nightly nightmares in which the devil was laughing at him and telling him that he was going to hell for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Thank you for providing this quote from St. Matthew 12. Reading this chapter in context, we can clearly see that Christ condemns these Pharisees who are committing the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.[31] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=12&l=31-#x) Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [32] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=12&l=32-#x) And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=12&l=32-32&q=1#x) [33] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=12&l=33-#x) Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known. [34] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=12&l=34-#x) O generation of vipers, how can you speak good things, whereas you are evil? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. [35] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=12&l=35-#x) A good man out of a good treasure bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of an evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.[31] "The blasphemy of the Spirit": The sin here spoken of is that blasphemy, by which the Pharisees attributed the miracles of Christ, wrought by the Spirit of God, to Beelzebub the prince of devils. Now this kind of sin is usually accompanied with so much obstinacy, and such wilful opposing the Spirit of God, and the known truth, that men who are guilty of it, are seldom or never converted: and therefore are never forgiven, because they will not repent. Otherwise there is no sin, which God cannot or will not forgive to such as sincerely repent, and have recourse to the keys of the church.[32] "Nor in the world to come": From these words St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. 21, c. 13) and St. Gregory (Dialog., 4, c. 39) gather, that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and, consequently, that there is a purgatory or a middle place.
When a person confesses this sin, often in jest, thinking that it is funny...Do people really go to confession and confess sins "in jest"?
Do people really go to confession and confess sins "in jest"?My sister did. When she was in middle school, there was a confession challenge. She even admitted that she confessed the sin of adultery when she was only 10 years old, and the priest told her to say a Rosary. He did not even challenge her. You would have thought that the confessor could tell the difference between a 10 year old and an adult, but apparently not.
My sister did. When she was in middle school, there was a confession challenge. She even admitted that she confessed the sin of adultery when she was only 10 years old, and the priest told her to say a Rosary. He did not even challenge her. You would have thought that the confessor could tell the difference between a 10 year old and an adult, but apparently not.He was probably just not in the mood to deal with childish antics, so he just wanted to send her off on her way as soon as possible. It was good advice too, praying the Rosary to be forgiven her sin of not taking Confession seriously.
By the way, she went to a NO priest.
Sodomy is sin that isn't forgiven.Nonsense! Where did you get that idea?
Sodomy is sin that isn't forgiven.Not true. If the person who committed this sin is sorry and they go to confession then when the priest gives them absolution their sin is forgiven.
Sodomy is sin that isn't forgiven.
I thought the church taught that all sins are forgiven? How can sodomy not be forgiven, plus I think most married couple have committed that sin (oral on wife, which can been seen as sodomy)
It is sad to see so many trads defend and make excuses for mortal sin of sodomy.We are to flee from all sɛҳuąƖ immorality per the First Council of Jerusalem for only the pure in heart shall see God.
Sodomites have taken over the Church. There are more sodomite friendly parishes than Traditional Latin Masses worldwide.
It is sad to see so many trads defend and make excuses for mortal sin of sodomy.Please point out the post of one person who "defends and make excuses for mortal sin of sodomy".
I thought the church taught that all sins are forgiven? How can sodomy not be forgiven, plus I think most married couple have committed that sin (oral on wife, which can been seen as sodomy)I have never known a traditional priest or a NO priest who approves of oral sex, which is a form of sodomy, or even mutual masturbation as both are a form of sex similar to the sin of Onan. Both oral sex and mutual masturbation are not open to life.
20. Against this gratuitous gift, against this grace of God, does the impenitent heart speak. This impenitence then is "the blasphemy of the Spirit, which shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." For against the Holy Spirit, by whom they whose sins are all forgiven are baptized, and whom the Church has received, that "whosesoever sins she remits, they may be remitted," does he speak, whether in the thought only, or also in the tongue, a very heinous and exceedingly ungodly word, who "when the patience of God leads him to repentance, after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up unto himself wrath against the day of wrath, and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to every man according to his deeds." This impenitence then, for so by some one general name may we call both this blasphemy and the word against the Holy Ghost which has no forgiveness for ever; this impenitence, I say, against which both the herald and the Judge cried out, saying, "Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand;" against which the Lord first opened the mouth of the Gospel preaching, and against which He foretold that the same Gospel was to be preached in all the world, when He said to His disciples after His resurrection from the dead, "it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem:" this impenitence, in one word, has no forgiveness "neither in this world, nor in the world to come;" for that repentance only obtains forgiveness in this world, that it may have its effect in the world to come.
4. As therefore we abhor the Arians, who maintain a difference between the Father and the Son, so also we abhor the Macedonians , who, although they ascribe equality to the Father and the Son, yet think the Holy Ghost to be of a lower nature, not considering that they thus fall into that blasphemy, which is not to be forgiven either in the present age or in the judgment to come, as the Lord says: "whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him, but he that shall have spoken against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him either in this age or in the age to come Matthew 12:32 ." And so to persist in this impiety is unpardonable, because it cuts him off from Him, by Whom he could confess: nor will he ever attain to healing pardon, who has no Advocate to plead for him. For from Him comes the invocation of the Father, from Him come the tears of penitents, from Him come the groans of suppliants, and "no one can call Jesus the Lord save in the Holy Ghost 1 Corinthians 12:3-6," Whose Omnipotence as equal and Whose Godhead as one, with the Father and the Son, the Apostle most clearly proclaims, saying, "there are divisions of graces but the same Spirit; and the divisions of ministrations but the same Lord; and there are divisions of operations but the same God, Who works all things in all 1 Corinthians 12:3-6 ."
3.
(. . .)
For nothing is so displeasing to God as an impenitent heart. Impenitence is the one sin for which there is no forgiveness. For if one who ceases to sin is pardoned even after he has sinned, and if prayer has power to bend the judge; it follows that every impenitent sinner must provoke his judge to wrath. Thus despair is the one sin for which there is no remedy. By obstinate rejection of God's grace men turn His mercy into sternness and severity. Yet, that you may know that God does every day call sinners to repentance, hear Isaiah's words: "In that day," he says, "did the Lord God of Hosts call to weeping and to mourning and to baldness and to girding with sackcloth: and behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine; let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die." After these words filled with the recklessness of despair the Scripture goes on to say: "And it was revealed in my ears by the Lord of Hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till you die." Isaiah 22:12-14 Only when they become dead to sin, will their sin be forgiven them. For, so long as they live in sin, it cannot be put away.
83. Now the man who, not believing that sins are remitted in the Church, despises this great gift of God's mercy, and persists to the last day of his life in his obstinacy of heart, is guilty of the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost, in whom Christ forgives sins. But this difficult question I have discussed as clearly as I could in a book devoted exclusively to this one point.
4. And speak not to me of those who have committed small sins, but suppose the case of one who is filled full of all wickedness, and let him practice everything which excludes him from the kingdom, and let us suppose that this man is not one of those who were unbelievers from the beginning, but formerly belonged to the believers, and such as were well pleasing to God, but afterwards has become a fornicator, adulterer, effeminate, a thief, a drunkard, a sodomite, a reviler, and everything else of this kind; I will not approve even of this man despairing of himself, although he may have gone on to extreme old age in the practice of this great and unspeakable wickedness. For if the wrath of God were a passion, one might well despair as being unable to quench the flame which he had kindled by so many evil doings; but since the Divine nature is passionless, even if He punishes, even if He takes vengeance, he does this not with wrath, but with tender care, and much loving-kindness; wherefore it behooves us to be of much good courage, and to trust in the power of repentance. For even those who have sinned against Him He is not wont to visit with punishment for His own sake; for no harm can traverse that divine nature; but He acts with a view to our advantage, and to prevent our perverseness becoming worse by our making a practice of despising and neglecting Him. For even as one who places himself outside the light inflicts no loss on the light, but the greatest upon himself being shut up in darkness; even so he who has become accustomed to despise that almighty power, does no injury to the power, but inflicts the greatest possible injury upon himself. And for this reason God threatens us with punishments, and often inflicts them, not as avenging Himself, but by way of attracting us to Himself. For a physician also is not distressed or vexed at the insults of those who are out of their minds, but yet does and contrives everything for the purpose of stopping those who do such unseemly acts, not looking to his own interests but to their profit; and if they manifest some small degree of self-control and sobriety he rejoices and is glad, and applies his remedies much more earnestly, not as revenging himself upon them for their former conduct, but as wishing to increase their advantage, and to bring them back to a purely sound state of health. Even so God when we fall into the very extremity of madness, says and does everything, not by way of avenging Himself on account of our former deeds; but because He wishes to release us from our disorder; and by means of right reason it is quite possible to be convinced of this.
3. For as, among men, those sons who disobey their fathers, being disinherited, are still their sons in the course of nature, but by law are disinherited, for they do not become the heirs of their natural parents; so in the same way is it with God — those who do not obey Him being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. Wherefore they cannot receive His inheritance: as David says, "Sinners are alienated from the womb; their anger is after the likeness of a serpent." And therefore did the Lord term those whom He knew to be the offspring of men "a generation of vipers;" Matthew 23:33 because after the manner of these animals they go about in subtlety, and injure others. For He said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." Matthew 16:6 Speaking of Herod, too, He says, "Go and tell that fox," Luke 13:32 aiming at his wicked cunning and deceit. Wherefore the prophet David says, "Man, being placed in honour, is made like cattle." And again Jeremiah says, "They have become like horses, furious about females; each one neighed after his neighbour's wife." Jeremiah 5:8
And Isaiah, when preaching in Judea, and reasoning with Israel, termed them "rulers of Sodom" and "people of Gomorrha;" Isaiah 1:10 intimating that they were like the Sodomites in wickedness, and that the same description of sins was rife among them, calling them by the same name, because of the similarity of their conduct.
And inasmuch as they were not by nature so created by God, but had power also to act rightly, the same person said to them, giving them good counsel, "Wash, make you clean; take away iniquity from your souls before my eyes; cease from your iniquities." Isaiah 1:16
Thus, no doubt, since they had transgressed and sinned in the same manner, so did they receive the same reproof as did the Sodomites.
But when they should be converted and come to repentance, and cease from evil, they should have power to become the sons of God, and to receive the inheritance of immortality which is given by Him.
For this reason, therefore, He has termed those "angels of the devil," and "children of the wicked one," Matthew 25:41, Matthew 13:38 who give heed to the devil, and do his works. But these are, at the same time, all created by the one and the same God. When, however, they believe and are subject to God, and go on and keep His doctrine, they are the sons of God; but when they have apostatized and fallen into transgression, they are ascribed to their chief, the devil— to him who first became the cause of apostasy to himself, and afterwards to others.
Yes yes there is no forgiveness to impenitence, but how does that prove that there's no forgiveness for penitent sodomites? Believing that mortals sins can be forgiven through Confession is not saying they aren't mortals sins, it's just Catholic doctrine.I think that impenitence and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by calling the Spirit of God a devil, in other words, calling Christ a sorcerer are definitely related.
Yes yes there is no forgiveness to impenitence, but how does that prove that there's no forgiveness for penitent sodomites? Believing that mortals sins can be forgiven through Confession is not saying they aren't mortals sins, it's just Catholic doctrine.When one goes to confession and confesses his sins to the priest and the priest gives you absolution then your sins are forgiven. Yes, sodomy is a huge mortal sin, but if the priest forgives in confession then it is forgiven by Jesus Himself.
When one goes to confession and confesses his sins to the priest and the priest gives you absolution then your sins are forgiven. Yes, sodomy is a huge mortal sin, but if the priest forgives in confession then it is forgiven by Jesus Himself.I'm not a sodomite, I was just arguing against the notion that it was an unforgiveable sin even in penitence.
I will pray for you.
:pray: :pray: :pray:
I'm not a sodomite, I was just arguing against the notion that it was an unforgiveable sin even in penitence.The mercy of God is for everyone and for all sins committed in this life.
The mercy of God is for everyone and for all sins committed in this life...........with the exception, of course, of the unforgivable sin!
....with the exception, of course, of the unforgivable sin!Which would be final impenitence.
4. As therefore we abhor the Arians, who maintain a difference between the Father and the Son, so also we abhor the Macedonians , who, although they ascribe equality to the Father and the Son, yet think the Holy Ghost to be of a lower nature, not considering that they thus fall into that blasphemy, which is not to be forgiven either in the present age or in the judgment to come, as the Lord says: "whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him, but he that shall have spoken against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him either in this age or in the age to come Matthew 12:32 ." And so to persist in this impiety is unpardonable, because it cuts him off from Him, by Whom he could confess: nor will he ever attain to healing pardon, who has no Advocate to plead for him. For from Him comes the invocation of the Father, from Him come the tears of penitents, from Him come the groans of suppliants, and "no one can call Jesus the Lord save in the Holy Ghost 1 Corinthians 12:3-6," Whose Omnipotence as equal and Whose Godhead as one, with the Father and the Son, the Apostle most clearly proclaims, saying, "there are divisions of graces but the same Spirit; and the divisions of ministrations but the same Lord; and there are divisions of operations but the same God, Who works all things in all 1 Corinthians 12:3-6 ."
Anyone who curses Christ like this has committed the unpardonable sin, which cannot be forgiven in this life nor in the next.
Growing up I had heard, though not from ANY Catholic, that ѕυιcιdє is the unforgivable sin. I do not yet have what I have recently come to refer to as the Catholic way of thinking, reasoning. Maybe some one or more of you can expand on the teaching about ѕυιcιdє. And no, I am not in any way suicidal or having such thoughts.I was taught that ѕυιcιdє is an unforgivable sin because it makes the last action a mortal sin, and those with even one unconfessed mortal sin go to Hell. Since the person who commits ѕυιcιdє is unable to go to confession and receive absolution, ѕυιcιdє is a straight ticket to Hell.
Having read through these posts, it seems to me that the unforgivable sin of final impenitence is at its root a rejection of God. Do I have this right?
I was taught that ѕυιcιdє is an unforgivable sin because it makes the last action a mortal sin, and those with even one unconfessed mortal sin go to Hell. Since the person who commits ѕυιcιdє is unable to go to confession and receive absolution, ѕυιcιdє is a straight ticket to Hell.I have never heard of ѕυιcιdє being an unforgivable sin.
(https://www.cathinfo.com/anonymous-posts-allowed/scared-i-committed-the-unforgivable-sin/msg646361/#msg646361)While it is true we may pray for the soul of that person, we do not know with any certainty at all that "God would grant it" because whatever regret there may (or may not) have been on the part of the dead person, a mortal sin was committed but not confessed and absolved - there was no time for that - which is the only way we can say with any degree of certainty at all that "He would grant it".QuoteQuote from: 1st Mansion Tenant on Yesterday at 07:24:00 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/anonymous-posts-allowed/scared-i-committed-the-unforgivable-sin/msg646361/#msg646361)Rather it is a grave mortal sin that will send one to Hell. Say in the case of a person suiciding and the effect being fatal but not immediate, one could repent the action and sincerely ask God for forgiveness and He would grant it. Nobody would ever know the outcome for that person, and it still important to pray for his soul. But it certainly would be slim chance of grace at the last moment, maybe as a result of someone else's constant prayer, and definitely not to be banked on.
I was taught that ѕυιcιdє is an unforgivable sin because it makes the last action a mortal sin, and those with even one unconfessed mortal sin go to Hell. Since the person who commits ѕυιcιdє is unable to go to confession and receive absolution, ѕυιcιdє is a straight ticket to Hell. I have never heard of ѕυιcιdє being an unforgivable sin.
Nevertheless ѕυιcιdє is not the unforgivable sin.
I was taught that ѕυιcιdє is an unforgivable sin because it makes the last action a mortal sin, and those with even one unconfessed mortal sin go to Hell. Since the person who commits ѕυιcιdє is unable to go to confession and receive absolution, ѕυιcιdє is a straight ticket to Hell.What if someone were to jump off a bridge and then regret it and repent on the way down? They may still be saved. St. John Vianney commented on this possibility when a woman asked him about her husband who committed ѕυιcιdє. So while someone who committed ѕυιcιdє is *probably* damned, it still isn't certain and we can still pray for them.
Rather it is a grave mortal sin that will send one to Hell. Say in the case of a person suiciding and the effect being fatal but not immediate, one could repent the action and sincerely ask God for forgiveness and He would grant it. Nobody would ever know the outcome for that person, and it still important to pray for his soul. But it certainly would be slim chance of grace at the last moment, maybe as a result of someone else's constant prayer, and definitely not to be banked on.You're right, it's both unlikely that they regretted(or even had time to regret) their actions and it is also uncertain if God would absolve them due to their regret, that'd vary from case to case I'd imagine. But if it's still a possibility, however unbelievably slim, we can still pray for them. I don't think the Church has ever declared definitively that someone was damned(although those who committed ѕυιcιdє are usually buried in unconsecrated ground, that still doesn't declare that they were DEFINITELY damned).
Nevertheless ѕυιcιdє is not the unforgivable sin.
While it is true we may pray for the soul of that person, we do not know with any certainty at all that "God would grant it" because whatever regret there may (or may not) have been on the part of the dead person, a mortal sin was committed but not confessed and absolved - there was no time for that - which is the only way we can say with any degree of certainty at all that "He would grant it".
The unforgivable sin(s) is one such as adultery, (or any mortal sin really) where there is no forgiveness while one lives in the sin.
In the case of ѕυιcιdє, the mortal sin is committed only an instant before death, or unconsciousness then death. In each case, there was no time to repent, let alone confess to a priest.
If the person jumps from an airplane without a parachute to kill themself, a mortal sin has been committed the instant they jump from the plane. Death occurs say one minute later when they hit the ground - assuming they didn't die of a heart attach on the way down. Regardless of what's going through the mind of the person and no matter how you look at it, a mortal sin has been committed, then they die. Assuming the person was sane, the assumption is always that the person died in mortal sin. The hope is that "somehow" he repented and God forgave him before he crossed into eternity. There is possibly a glimmer, but not much hope for that soul.
The unforgivable sin(s) is one such as adultery, (or any mortal sin really) where there is no forgiveness while one lives in the sin.You are mistaken. Neither is divorce the unforgivable sin. You are confusing unforgivable with mortal. These words have two different meanings.
That was me and I pressed post before I was ready to post. Clicked the wrong button.That was my post. I always forget about clicking that box.QuoteThe unforgivable sin(s) is one such as adultery, (or any mortal sin really) where there is no forgiveness while one lives in the sin.
You are mistaken. Neither is divorce the unforgivable sin. You are confusing unforgivable with mortal. These words have two different meanings.
Also anon changed my word repent to regret. These also have different meanings. Be careful not to confuse people who are trying to learn.
Stubborn, I didn't miss it.
But again you are confusing terms. You are talking about unforgiven sins but the topic is THE Unforgivable sin.
I repeat that it would be a very slim chance that a person could survive a ѕυιcιdє just long enough to repent, (but nevertheless possible) and it would be presumptious to bank on it. Presumption on God's mercy would be a sin in itself to compound the mortal sin of ѕυιcιdє.
My point is that you spoke of divorce and other sins as being unforgivable, and I can only assume that you meant to say "unforgiven". All sins can be forgiven except etc.......Yes, of course all sins can be forgiven, including adultery - but not while living in the sin. If the sin be adultery, one must remove themselves from that situation before that sin can be forgiven.