Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on May 17, 2023, 09:20:26 PM
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I've recently been invited to attend my niece's confirmation party.
It doesn't appear that I've been invited to the confirmation ceremony itself but I assume that since it's a novus ordo confirmation it would be a sin to attend due to the new mass?
But what about the "after Church, drinks and lunch"? Would this be fine to attend? Or would I be implying that by attending that I would be supporting the dubious confirmation sacrament of the novus ordo?
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You would be implying that you like "drinks and lunch". Could I come too? :cowboy:
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I say go to your niece’s confirmation party. Make sure to give a special holy gift.
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Give her a special Douay Rheims bible with her name and confirmation date engraved on it.
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You would be implying that you like "drinks and lunch". Could I come too? :cowboy:
I say go to your niece’s confirmation party. Make sure to give a special holy gift.
I am conflicted on going, as by going I don't want to be implicit in testifying that I think the sacrament was valid.
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Give her a special Douay Rheims bible with her name and confirmation date engraved on it.
It's a novus ordo confirmation which is the problem here. I don't want they are valid.
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It's a novus ordo confirmation which is the problem here. I don't believe they are valid.
fixed
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Does she or her parents know about your position? If you think that they would be polite enough to listen to you, you could take a minute or two to explain to them what Traditional Catholicism is all about, and why the right thing to do would be to get a confirmation done by a Traditionalist bishop.
As far as I know, Catholics can even attend Protestant services, if they don't actively participate on it, and just watch it. I believe that we can apply the same principles to the Novus Ordo sacraments in general.
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Does she or her parents know about your position? If you think that they would be polite enough to listen to you, you could take a minute or two to explain to them what Traditional Catholicism is all about, and why the right thing to do would be to get a confirmation done by a Traditionalist bishop.
As far as I know, Catholics can even attend Protestant services, if they don't actively participate on it, and just watch it. I believe that we can apply the same principles to the Novus Ordo sacraments in general.
I don't think they are interested in traditional Catholic teaching. From what I'm aware it's a sin for Catholics to attend non-catholic services, even if it's just watching.
I wasn't invited to the service, just the after party. They seem to be aware of my 'change' in religious beliefs but unfortunately most of my family are not serious about their faith.
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Let's put it like this. Not attending is definitely not a sin. Attending is at the very least an occasion of sin and probably scandalous and sinful in itself.
When you come there with your gift what are you going to say? Congratulations? On what? You'll either lie or you're going to have to cause a scene.
Consider also what kind of credibility you will have later when you try to convert those people. They won't think it's that important since you attended the celebration of a non-Catholic's invalid confirmation.
By going you're putting yourself in an occasion of sin, you'll be compelled to pretend like everything's fine and good.
Don't be a coward, stand up for your beliefs.
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I don't think they are interested in traditional Catholic teaching. From what I'm aware it's a sin for Catholics to attend non-catholic services, even if it's just watching.
I wasn't invited to the service, just the after party. They seem to be aware of my 'change' in religious beliefs but unfortunately most of my family are not serious about their faith.
It is not a sin to attend a non-Catholic religious service for a proportionally good reason. It would be a sin to actively participate in the service. It is certainly not a sin to go to the party. If the topic of religion comes up, it will give you a chance to explain why you are a traditional Catholic.
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This is your niece. If you don’t go to the party, it will just upset your family which will be lack of charity. They invited you to only the party; not the confirmation. At least your family has some faith. My family not so much. At least you can be a good Aunt. At least your family invited you. (Our family has ostracized us.).
Give her a Douay Rheims bible with just her name engraved on it then. Give her an inexpensive rosary bracelet. Get it blessed by a traditional Catholic priest.
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This is your niece. If you don’t go to the party, it will just upset your family which will be lack of charity. They invited you to only the party; not the confirmation. At least your family has some faith. My family not so much. At least you can be a good Aunt. At least your family invited you. (Our family has ostracized us.).
Give her a Douay Rheims bible with just her name engraved on it then. Give her an inexpensive rosary bracelet. Get it blessed by a traditional Catholic priest.
"For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
I am not concerned with displeasing them if I don't go. I am just unsure if going would be implying that I support a doubtful sacrament, personally I don't believe it's (novus ordo ordination) valid.
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This is your niece. If you don’t go to the party, it will just upset your family which will be lack of charity. They invited you to only the party; not the confirmation. At least your family has some faith. My family not so much. At least you can be a good Aunt. At least your family invited you. (Our family has ostracized us.).
Give her a Douay Rheims bible with just her name engraved on it then. Give her an inexpensive rosary bracelet. Get it blessed by a traditional Catholic priest.
I disagree with giving her a bible or rosary bracelet, those things are our pearls, they are very holy things. We are told by Our Lord to not cast our pearls before swine or give that which is holy to dogs. And I do not think it's a good sign you were even invited unless they invited you planning that you would not attend anyway.
Whether one considers it a sin or not, prudence dictates the OP not go. After all, what exactly are you celebrating if not a NO ceremony? You can fool yourself and say "well, I'm going to, in some way, try to be an instrument of conversion for my niece or family." If that's the case then bring a podium with you and get to preaching.
Otherwise, know that by going you are celebrating a NO ceremony.
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When you come there with your gift what are you going to say? Congratulations? On what? You'll either lie or you're going to have to cause a scene.
This is something that bothers me. Since I don't believe it's valid then obviously I shouldn't bring a gift to congratulate her.
The other things too, either way it's going to cause some kind of scandal.
If I don't go and explain my reasons - scandal privately
If i go without a gift - scandal at the scene
If I go with a gift - scandal implying I support the doubtful new rites
I'm leaning towards not going atm. It's always good to seek counsel with the just.
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I disagree with giving her a bible or rosary bracelet, those things are our pearls, they are very holy things. We are told by Our Lord to not cast our pearls before swine or give that which is holy to dogs. And I do not think it's a good sign you were even invited unless they invited you planning that you would not attend anyway.
Whether one considers it a sin or not, prudence dictates the OP not go. After all, what exactly are you celebrating if not a NO ceremony? You can fool yourself and say "well, I'm going to, in some way, try to be an instrument of conversion for my niece or family." If that's the case then bring a podium with you and get to preaching.
Otherwise, know that by going you are celebrating a NO ceremony.
Yes I was thinking along these lines. Since the party represents the ceremony....
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I tend to agree with the OP on this. Let's say this was the party after her Bat Mitzvah (if she were Jєωιѕн). Would those who are saying you should attend say that you should attend that party? Isn't the party about celebrating what happened at the ceremony?
As a side note (I know you're not invited to the ceremony): I'm not sure if it would be sinful or not to attend the actual ceremony because I was always under the impression that passive attendance was allowed for non-Catholic weddings and funerals (not specific religious ceremonies in the non-Catholic religion).
This is so hard OP. Maybe you don't have to reject it based on the doubtful Novus Ordo confirmation. Maybe some other (true) reason? And leave the confirmation issue for another time? Because even most Novus Ordos don't know that Traditional Catholics take issue with the doubtful sacraments. Heck, even some Traditional Catholics don't take issue with the doubtful sacraments.
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As a side note (I know you're not invited to the ceremony): I'm not sure if it would be sinful or not to attend the actual ceremony because I was always under the impression that passive attendance was allowed for non-Catholic weddings and funerals (not specific religious ceremonies in the non-Catholic religion).
I disagree with this. Valid Marriage is between 2 baptism Catholics. Everything else is fornication.
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I disagree with this. Valid Marriage is between 2 baptism Catholics. Everything else is fornication.
Except that's not what the Church teaches. You are allowed to witness a non-Catholic wedding.
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I disagree with this. Valid Marriage is between 2 baptism Catholics. Everything else is fornication.
Wrong.
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"For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
I am not concerned with displeasing them if I don't go. I am just unsure if going would be implying that I support a doubtful sacrament, personally I don't believe it's (novus ordo ordination) valid.
You sound scrupulous. You were invited to a family gathering. You have a great opportunity to evangelize.
Giving a bible or rosary bracelet as a gift is a great way to evangelize and encourage. Tons of cute Catholic t shirts on line too.
Also, take that log out of your eye before you judge others. Who are you to judge them?
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That’s your niece. Traditional Catholicism isn’t a rigid occult. Bringing her a gift is to encourage her in her Catholic Faith. It’s out of charity. Your wacky actions are going to turn off many from seeking Traditional Catholicism.
Do you celebrate birthdays? After all, they were baptized novus Ordo.
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You would scandalize your niece if you don't attend and bring a nice age appropriate gift. Who is at greater risk of their faith being damaged...you or your niece? It would be a sin for you to not attend unless there is a grave reason to avoid the party.
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This is your niece. If you don’t go to the party, it will just upset your family which will be lack of charity.
Upsetting someone doesn't mean you lack charity. Truth is the measure of charity.
Caritas in veritatis.
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You can fool yourself and say "well, I'm going to, in some way, try to be an instrument of conversion for my niece or family." If that's the case then bring a podium with you and get to preaching.
Otherwise, know that by going you are celebrating a NO ceremony.
Seconded.
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The most important question hasn't been asked, which is (something like): What does this confirmation mean to your niece and her family? Are they under the impression that the girl is being confirmed as a soldier for Christ, growing in grace and being fortified in her resolve to stand firm against the enemies of religion?
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If they are, then setting aside the invalidity of the sacrament, they have good Catholic impulses which should be affirmed and can be affirmed without giving scandal. Attending the reception seems like a good idea at least. You can use mental reservations to avoid agreeing with the invalidity of the sacrament and of the Conciliar Institution.
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If, on the other hand (and probably more likely, unfortunately) this occasion is viewed as just some vague, cultural rite of passage, the only real reason to attend the reception would be to be a positive influence to correct that. If you have a good relationship with the people in question then you can use that and talk to them about the true meaning of the sacrament of confirmation. You don't have to bullrush in there and grab the microphone to announce its invalidity. But you can tell them the traditional doctrine, see how they react, see if it piques their interest.
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There is also a middle ground between the two-- that the niece and family do have some vague understanding that confirmation is an important religious ritual, to be done for its own sake rather than just for the maintenance of culture/custom, but are very ignorant of what it actually means. In that situation you could justify going to hopefully find yourself in a position to instruct or edify by sharing the traditional doctrine.
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This occasion may be one for fraternal correction, but bear in mind that fraternal correction is something that is governed by prudence. We do not have an obligation to compulsively and severely correct all errors at all times; on the contrary, sometimes we have an obligation to refrain from fraternal correction. One of the factors St. Thomas requires, when discussing whether we should correct others, is if our correction can be predicted to do any good. And when issuing fraternal correction, our goal is to succeed in converting hearts. So don't just go there and start flapping your lips about Novus Ordo this and Novus Ordo that, as though it were a box you needed to check. That would be rash, and would probably jeopardize future opportunities to positively influence these people.
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It is not a sin to attend a non-Catholic religious service for a proportionally good reason. It would be a sin to actively participate in the service. It is certainly not a sin to go to the party. If the topic of religion comes up, it will give you a chance to explain why you are a traditional Catholic.
It would definitely be a "teachable moment".
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"For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
I am not concerned with displeasing them if I don't go. I am just unsure if going would be implying that I support a doubtful sacrament, personally I don't believe it's (novus ordo ordination) valid.
She's not going to the service, she's just going to the party. This is a no-brainer
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I disagree with giving her a bible or rosary bracelet, those things are our pearls, they are very holy things. We are told by Our Lord to not cast our pearls before swine or give that which is holy to dogs. And I do not think it's a good sign you were even invited unless they invited you planning that you would not attend anyway.
I can't believe what I just read. You do realize this is OPs small niece? She could use both and rosary and a traditional Bible even if she is currently being raised by her parents as NO.
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I can't believe there are people who are suggesting she/he take this opportunity to teach (not to mention the subjective advice like well, if they think this way then....but if they think that way, then....). No, this is not the time to "teach". And this is not something that we should treat subjectively.
OP: If you feel strongly that attending this event would effectively mean celebrating a lie/false religion, then just don't go. Will it be easy to do that? Of course not. But that doesn't mean you should go.
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I keep it simple. The following is my directive to my family: I do not do Novus Ordo weddings and funerals, so do not ask me. Usually once you tell them this, they will get a clue and not invite you to Holy Communion and Confirmation parties, unless they are mentally vacuous. I do not do "celebrations of life," because if you are in hell, there is nothing to celebrate. I tell my pigeons who try to get sober, "If you die of alcoholism or a drug overdose, I am not coming to your funeral, and make sure you tell your parents and all your relatives what I said." This will usually make them try harder, at least for a time.
I remember a lady once asked Fr. Wathen if he would stop by the funeral home and say a few words about her husband. What a mistake that was. Fr Wathen showed up and said, "Well, ...(insert name) would have had the greatest difficulty making it to heaven."
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I can't believe what I just read. You do realize this is OPs small niece? She could use both and rosary and a traditional Bible even if she is currently being raised by her parents as NO.
Being raised as a NO, she wouldn't.
The whole point of separating one's self from even close family members (let alone those more distant), is two fold. First, to keep yourself from falling into error and to show Our Lord exactly where you stand (with Him). Next, your absence is with purpose because it sends the message that if they really want to you there then they have to go your way, they are wrong and no other option exists for them if they want to save their souls.
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Being raised as a NO, she wouldn't.
The whole point of separating one's self from even close family members (let alone those more distant), is two fold. First, to keep yourself from falling into error and to show Our Lord exactly where you stand (with Him). Next, your absence is with purpose because it sends the message that if they really want to you there then they have to go your way, they are wrong and no other option exists for them if they want to save their souls.
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This seems like terrible advice, and I can't imagine it's done anything but needlessly drive people away. I am sure there are times when a severance (even from close family) is the best way of managing the problems we're discussing, but as a general rule or first resort it is plainly rash. We are called to be candles on top of hills; we are called to instruct the ignorant and comfort the afflicted, to let our charity shine forth before all men, etc.. The way you put it-- "they have to go your way... if they want to save their souls"-- shows that you have the wrong priorities when making these decisions. The blind leading the blind into a pit.
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Being raised as a NO, she wouldn't.
The whole point of separating one's self from even close family members (let alone those more distant), is two fold. First, to keep yourself from falling into error and to show Our Lord exactly where you stand (with Him). Next, your absence is with purpose because it sends the message that if they really want to you there then they have to go your way, they are wrong and no other option exists for them if they want to save their souls.
Dimond much?
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This seems like terrible advice, and I can't imagine it's done anything but needlessly drive people away. I am sure there are times when a severance (even from close family) is the best way of managing the problems we're discussing, but as a general rule or first resort it is plainly rash. We are called to be candles on top of hills; we are called to instruct the ignorant and comfort the afflicted, to let our charity shine forth before all men, etc.. The way you put it-- "they have to go your way... if they want to save their souls"-- shows that you have the wrong priorities when making these decisions. The blind leading the blind into a pit.
It seems like terrible advice for libs I agree. But if one is going to live the faith in this crisis, then one must live their convictions in spite of worldly, NO misconceptions of being rash - and this is most especially important when it comes to hoping to convert family.
The expectation is for the candle on top of the hill to go out when it walks into a NO celebration, get snuffed right out, after all there is a danger there, which is why it is a bad idea to keep company with NOers, let alone attend NO celebrations. If that's rash then so be it, but it's what is best for all involved.
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Dimond much?
Liberal much?
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It seems like terrible advice for libs I agree. But if one is going to live the faith in this crisis, then one must live their convictions in spite of worldly, NO misconceptions of being rash - and this is most especially important when it comes to hoping to convert family.
The expectation is for the candle on top of the hill to go out when it walks into a NO celebration, get snuffed right out, after all there is a danger there, which is why it is a bad idea to keep company with NOers, let alone attend NO celebrations. If that's rash then so be it, but it's what is best for all involved.
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You sound insecure, and I think you are projecting your insecurities. If you are at risk of losing your faith due to whatever temptations the Novus Ordo gives you, then you do well to avoid attending such events even when they could be justified. But you do equally well to not assume that everyone shares these insecurities. Plenty of trads can attend a Novus Ordo wedding, or a funeral, or go to a reception, or whatever, without even a remote risk of feeling an irresistible urge to go kiss an icon of JPII or spontaneously announce that the death penalty is inadmissible and that the Church needs to reform her teaching on sɛҳuąƖ morality.
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You sound insecure, and I think you are projecting your insecurities. If you are at risk of losing your faith due to whatever temptations the Novus Ordo gives you, then you do well to avoid attending such events even when they could be justified. But you do equally well to not assume that everyone shares these insecurities. Plenty of trads can attend a Novus Ordo wedding, or a funeral, or go to a reception, or whatever, without even a remote risk of feeling an irresistible urge to go kiss an icon of JPII or spontaneously announce that the death penalty is inadmissible and that the Church needs to reform her teaching on sɛҳuąƖ morality.
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You sound invincible and I think you are projecting your invincibility. If you are at no risk whatsoever of losing your faith due to whatever temptations the Novus Ordo gives others, then you do well to go right ahead and consider yourself justified to join in the NO celebration. But you do equally well to not assume that everyone shares your invincibility. Plenty of trads who attend a Novus Ordo wedding, or a funeral, or go to a reception, or whatever, without even a remote risk of feeling they've compromised in any way, have ended up either loosing their faith or discovered that the Novus Ordo is really not so bad, at least not so bad that it should keep them from attending it's celebrations for convenience sake when the occasion arises.
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Liberal much?
No, just on special occasions.
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One way to handle this would be to write them a gracious letter explaining the quandary you are in and why.
Something that tells them how much you love your niece and what qualities you appreciate about her and how much you love them and know how hard they have worked raising her.
Then saying that while it appears we share a lot of similar beliefs, because the church after VII now teaches that all religions lead to Heaven and Allah is the same god as Jesus' Father you simply can't take part in it.
Something like:
"It grieves me to say this because I care about you guys and would love to spend time with you and everyone (and especially eat cake!)
but my conscience simply won't allow me to celebrate that belief.
Allah is not Jesus' Father and I will have to stand before Him one day and explain why I celebrated that denial of Him.
I have to follow the First Commandment."
You could send a rosary to your niece and without mentioning the confirmation tell her how much Mary loves her and how she should always turn to Mary for help in life...
That kind of thing.
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Just an update, I haven't made a decision yet but I have received an invitation to the ceremony.
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Just an update, I haven't made a decision yet but I have received an invitation to the ceremony.
Although it’s not a sin to attend (as long as you don’t participate), I wouldn’t go. I would just go to the party afterwards.
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I think the OP should speak with his/her priest. Since this is not just a wedding but a non Catholic religious ceremony and party to celebrate same, he would be better suited to advise.
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I think the OP should speak with his/her priest. Since this is not just a wedding but a non Catholic religious ceremony and party to celebrate same, he would be better suited to advise.
This should always be the top advice. When in doubt, ask your confessor or another priest that you trust. They are better equipped to morally guide you through challenging situations than random laymen online.
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This should always be the top advice. When in doubt, ask your confessor or another priest that you trust. They are better equipped to morally guide you through challenging situations than random laymen online.
Most sspx priests will tell you it's fine to go since they believe the new rites of ordination is valid. So depending on which priest you ask you will get different answers.
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Are you the sponsor?
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Are you the sponsor?
No
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I went no contact with my mother the last 3 years of her life. This was after consulting with half a dozen priests. It was so hard because it FELT wrong. Yes she was toxic and manipulative but the separation was based on her being a New Ager (tarot, crystals, fortune tellers, etc). I sent her money the last year but there was no relationship left. I gave her eulogy when she passed away. Difficult and painful situation.
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After much consideration I decided to go to neither the ceremony nor the party. It is a difficult choice. On one hand is family unity. On the other hand is a very doubtful sacrament. I have messaged a few people and even priests on this issue but have received conflicting advice (similar to this thread). One says the new rites are valid and it's fine to go, another says it's most like not valid but to go for family unity. Others say not to go as to not cause scandal.
Personally I would rather not risk my soul on a doubtful sacrament (and i've seen strong information regarding the positive doubt on the new rites for ordination and consecration). Vatican II definitely appears to be a new religion, with a new mass and new sacraments...I have messaged the family members in question, but I hear they aren't happy with me.
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After much consideration I decided to go to neither the ceremony nor the party. It is a difficult choice. On one hand is family unity. On the other hand is a very doubtful sacrament. I have messaged a few people and even priests on this issue but have received conflicting advice (similar to this thread). One says the new rites are valid and it's fine to go, another says it's most like not valid but to go for family unity. Others say not to go as to not cause scandal.
Personally I would rather not risk my soul on a doubtful sacrament (and i've seen strong information regarding the positive doubt on the new rites for ordination and consecration). Vatican II definitely appears to be a new religion, with a new mass and new sacraments...I have messaged the family members in question, but I hear they aren't happy with me.
Well done.