Author Topic: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops  (Read 856 times)

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Anonymous

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Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
« on: April 15, 2019, 06:35:18 AM »
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  • Is anyone aware of Rome (or Romans) ever having addressed this issue?



    Anonymous

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #2 on: April 15, 2019, 07:00:31 AM »
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  • Interesting:

    The first paragraph calls the consecrations (at least these specific ones) illicit, not invalid.

    That’s interesting because it is those Palmarian consecrations which comprise a substantial portion of the argument against Thuc validity (ie., they are supposed to suffice for introducing positive doubt into Thuc’s capacity to form proper sacramental intent), yet that argument seems to be implicitly rejected in declaring those consecrations  illicit, not invalid.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #3 on: April 15, 2019, 07:16:40 AM »
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  • What about this confusing statement from the same Vatican document:

    “3) Finally, as regards those who have already received ordination in this illicit manner, or who will perhaps receive ordination from them, whatever about the validity of the orders, the Church does not nor shall it recognize their ordination, and as regards all juridical effects, it considers them in the state which each one had previously, and the above-mentioned penal sanctions remain in forceuntil repentance.”

    Is not that the Vatican expressing doubt?

    Anonymous

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #4 on: April 15, 2019, 07:38:40 AM »
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  • What about this confusing statement from the same Vatican document:

    “3) Finally, as regards those who have already received ordination in this illicit manner, or who will perhaps receive ordination from them, whatever about the validity of the orders, the Church does not nor shall it recognize their ordination, and as regards all juridical effects, it considers them in the state which each one had previously, and the above-mentioned penal sanctions remain in forceuntil repentance.”

    Is not that the Vatican expressing doubt?
    No, that’s the Vatican clearly refusing to recognize the validity of Thuc consecrations.



    Anonymous

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #5 on: April 15, 2019, 07:51:24 AM »
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  • No, that is not the case. The Thuc line is indeed valid, although it is illicit. If someone outside the Church is consecrated a Bishop or ordained a Priest without what is called canonical fitness, when he returns to the Church he is not allowed to exercise that Order. 

    The statement in 2 makes it clear that this is what is being spoken of, "2) In accordance with canon 2374 priests illicitly ordained in this way are ipso facto suspended from the order received, and they are also irregular should they exercise the order (canon 985, 7)."

    Sometimes, it may be dispensed later on, by the competent authority, when the person is received; or the person may be deemed fit.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #6 on: April 15, 2019, 08:26:22 AM »
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  • No, that is not the case. The Thuc line is indeed valid, although it is illicit. If someone outside the Church is consecrated a Bishop or ordained a Priest without what is called canonical fitness, when he returns to the Church he is not allowed to exercise that Order.

    The statement in 2 makes it clear that this is what is being spoken of, "2) In accordance with canon 2374 priests illicitly ordained in this way are ipso facto suspended from the order received, and they are also irregular should they exercise the order (canon 985, 7)."

    Sometimes, it may be dispensed later on, by the competent authority, when the person is received; or the person may be deemed fit.
    “3)...the Church does not nor shall it recognize their ordination...”

    Anonymous

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #7 on: April 15, 2019, 09:18:11 AM »
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  • SEVENTH LINEAGE_____
    .
    The second complex lineage case is that of Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin, a brother of Ngo Dinh Diem Jean Baptiste, the first President of the Republic of Viet Nam, who was murdered in November 1963.
    In the mid-1970s, while living in exile in Italy, the lonely, depressed and impoverished Msgr. Ngo was befriended by Rev. Maurice Revaz, a Swiss priest who, at that time, was teaching canon law at the traditionalist seminary of the Sacerdotal Society of St. Pius X which Archbishop-Bishop Emeritus Marcel Lefebvre has established in Ecône, Switzerland.
    Throughout the 1970s many traditionalist clergy and laity in Europe and America were expressing impatience over Msgr. Lefebvre's then reluctance to consecrate traditionalist bishops.
    Canon Revaz, for his part, had even become convinced that the real Pope Paul VI was being held prisoner in a Vatican dungeon, with an imposter playing his rôle as Pope.
    Around 1976 Canon Revaz heard there was a lay group near Seville, Spain, that was also convinced that Paul VI either was a prisoner in the Vatican or was being kept in a drugged state in order to manipulate him. Canon Revaz began corresponding with its two leaders, Clemente Dominguez Gómez and Manuel Alonso Corral, both of whom for several years had been saying that they were receiving visions of Our Lord and Our Lady.
    Canon Revaz, after a trip to Rome and an unsuccessful attempt to find, and liberate, the imprisoned and/or drugged Pope Paul VI, left the Ecône seminary permanently, and went to Spain along with two companions, an Irish woman visionary who claimed to be receiving mesages from the incarcerated and/or drugged Pope, and a German nun, Sr. Cherubina, who for some time had been working at the SSPX seminary.
    Canon Revaz had gotten to know Msgr. Ngo, both from making many visits to Rome, where the exiled Archbishop had been living since 1963, and from a trip that Msgr. Ngo had once made to the seminary in Ecône. Revaz convinced the Archbishop to go to Spain and to consecrate priests and bishops for the Dominguez/Alonso group.
    There are reports, from sources very hostile to Msgr. Ngo, that Canon Revaz and his companions persuaded Msgr. Ngo to perform the ordinations and consecrations by convincing him that a bi-locating Pope Paul VI (the real, imprisoned, one, not the imposter) had appeared in Spain and approved the idea.
    At any event, within days of the ordinations and the consecrations that Msgr. Ngo performed in Spain, the Vatican announced publicly that Archbishop Ngo had been automatically excommunicated for attempting to consecrate bishops without a Papal mandate. Msgr. Ngo, however, quickly expressed regret for his actions in Spain and sought forgiveness from the Vatican. The excommunication was then lifted.
    The Dominguez/Alonso group, however, went on without him. Its newly made bishops within weeks started ordaining priests and consecrating bishops and, at the death of Paul VI in 1978, they declared themselves the Holy Palmarian Church (the "Iglesia Una, Santa, Católica, Apostólica y Palmariana").
    But, right after the lifting of his excommunication, Archbishop Ngo was again back to consecrating independent bishops. This time, the consecrations were for a wide variety of groups, including sedevacantists loosely grouped under the name Tridentine Latin Rite Church.
    Finally, some years before his death, Msgr. Ngo agreed also to perform consecrations for a wide assortment of splinter groups, some of them not even Roman Catholic.
    Excommunicated a second time for these later consecrations, Msgr. Ngo moved to Rochester, NY, where for a few years he lived with an independent bishop (who had been consecrated by one of those bishops whom Msgr. Ngo had earlier consecrated for the Tridentine Latin Rite Church).
    While he was living in upstate New York, Msgr. Ngo was invited to New York City to attend a conference of exiled Vietnamese. While there, he was persuaded to join (some say, was kidnapped by) some emigré Vietnamese who were living in a monastery in Missouri and were loyal to the Vatican. Shortly after arriving there, Msgr. Ngo died. Upon his death, the Vatican released a statement saying that he had recently asked for, and had received, John Paul II's forgiveness.
    Msgr. Ngo's lineage includes the broadest conceivable spectrum of theologies likely ever to be held by men all claiming to possess valid "Catholic" priestly and episcopal orders that are derived from a single prelate alive in their lifetimes. The spectrum ranges from the head of a French Satanist sect all the way to the strictest of Traditional Roman Catholics.
    Needless to say, there are critics of both the liceity and validity of the various "Thuc lineage" episcopal consecrations. Click here for a web site comprising arguments favoring and opposing the validity of the Thuc consecrations and another web site posting a recent essay denying validity. Also of interest is "Document sur la mort de Mgr Thuc"
    .
    • 05/04/1938 Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin (b. in 1897; d. in 1984).
       Ordained a Roman Catholic priest on 10/20/1925 at xxxxx, Viet Nam, by Msgr. xxxxx, Bishop of xxxxx.
       Consecrated a Roman Catholic bishop on 05/04/1938 at Hué, Viet Nam, by the Apostolic Delegate in Indochina, Msgr. Antonin Drapier, O.P., Titular Archbishop of Neocaesarea in Pontus, assisted by Msgr. Isidore Dumortier, M.E.P., Titular Bishop of Lipara, and by Msgr. Dominique Ngo Ngoc Can Titular, Titular Bishop of Zenobias.
       Msgr. Ngo was Titular Bishop of Saesina, 1938-60, Archbishop of Hué, Viet Nam, 1960-68, and Titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia, 1968-1984.
    .

    .
    Quote
    • 01/11/1976 Clemente Ferdinand Dominguez Gómez (b in 1946; still living).
       Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 01/01/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Msgr. Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin, Titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia.
       Consecrated a bishop on 01/11/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Msgr. Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin, Titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia.
       He formed in 1978 the Holy Palmarian Church. He has been, since August 1978, Pope Gregory XVII of the Holy Palmarian Church. A SPANIARD
      • 01/28/1976 Francis Gabriel Coll (b ca. 1946; still living).
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 12/31/1975 at El Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Msgr. Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc, Titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/28/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of xxxx, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx.
         He was reconciled, as a layman, with the Vatican in JUne 1978. AN IRISHMAN
         Bp Coll never consecrated anyone a bishop.
        •  
      • 01/28/1976 Paul Gerald Abraham Fox (b ca. 1955; still living).
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 12/31/1975 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Msgr. Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin, Titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/28/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of xxxx, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx.
         Bp Fox never consecrated anyone a bishop
        •  
      • 01/28/1976 Louis Henri Zacarias Moulins (b ca. 1955; still living).
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 12/31/1975 at El Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Msgr. Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc, Titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/28/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of xxxx, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. He disassociated himself from the Palmarian movement in May 1976. A FRENCHMAN
        •  
      • 01/28/1976 Maurice Hermenegildo Revaz (b in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a Roman Catholic priest for the Canons Regular of Great Saint Bernard's Pass on xx/xx/19xx at xxxx, Switzerland, by Msgr. xxxxx, Bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/28/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of xxxx, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A SWISS
         Msgr. Revaz left the Palmarian movement in 1978 and in the late 1990s was reconciled with the Vatican, laicized, and is now living in Switzerland. His address is:
         Maurice Revaz
         Les Sondzons
         Ch-1904 Vernayaz
        • 10/20/1976 Manfred Damaso Zewell (see below).
          •  
        • 01/06/1978 Josef Xavier Gregor xxxx Berghofer (see below).
          •  
        • xx/xx/1981 John xxxx Quinn (b. in 19xx; still living).
           Ordained a Roman Catholic priest for at xxxxx by xxxxx, Roman Catholic bishop of xxxxx..
           Consecrated a bishop on xx/xx/1981 at Necedah, Wisconsin, by Maurice Hermenegildo Revaz, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by William Daly, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, and by Richard Corr, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church. He later left the Holy Palmarian Church and ceased exercising episcopal functions. He is now a co-director of the Tridentine Rite Conference. An AMERICAN.
        •  
      • 02/01/1976 Vincent Josaphat Fearson (b ca. 1925; still living).
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 01/28/1976 at El Paklmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of xxxx. He had been a brother in the Capuchins.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/01/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 02/01/1976 Lucien xxxx Moulins (b ca. 1955; still living).
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 01/28/1976 at El Paklmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of xxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/01/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A Frenchman
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Juan xxxx Amado (b ca. 1955; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 01/28/1976 at El Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of xxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/06/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx.. A SPANIARD
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Brendan xxxx Brian (b. ca. 1955; still living).
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 01/28/1976 at El Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of xxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/06/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Richard xxxx Mitchell-Cotts (b. ca. 1946; still living).
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 01/28/1976 at El Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of xxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/06/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN ENGLISHMAN
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Richard xxxx Delaney (b. in 19xx; still living).
         e-mail address: richarddelaney@ireland.com
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 01/28/1976 at El Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of xxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/06/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Francis Cristobal Byrne (b in 1928; still living).
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 02/01/1976 at El Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of xxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/13/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx.
         He left the Palmarian movement in 1997. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Geoffrey Francis Estanislao Luc Eifer Lucifer Legionnaire Mayne (b in 1950; still living).
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 02/01/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx..
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/13/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx.
         He left the Palmarian movement in 1990 and was reconciled with the Roman Catholic Church. In 1998 he became AN AUSTRALIAN
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Peter Serafin McCann (b in 19xx; still living).
         e-mail address: societystjohn@hotmail.com
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 01/28/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/13/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Miguel Tereso Salado (b ca. 1935; still living).
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 02/06/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/13/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A SPANIARD
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Richard Subiron xxxx Fernandis (b in 1953; still living).
         Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 02/01/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/13/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A SPANIARD
        •  
      • 02/27/1976 Felix A. xxxx Arenal (b ca. 1935; still living).
         Ordained a Roman Catholic priest on 09/23/1949 at xxxx by Msgr. xxxx, Roman Catholic Bishop of xxxx. He was laicized in 1958
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/27/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx.
         He left the Palmarian movement a few months after his consecration. A SPANIARD
        •  
      • 03/04/1976 Ronald Pascual Cameron-Brown (b ca. 1950; still living).
         Ordained a priest on xx/xx19xx at xxxxx by xxxxx, bishop of xxxxx. Later ordained sub conditione a priest on xx/xx197x at xxxxx by Clemente Dominguez Geomez, bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 03/04/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN AMERICAN
        •  
      • 03/18/1976 Michel F. xxxx Main (b ca. 1955; still living).
         Ordained a priest on xx/xx/19xx by Jean Laborie, a bishop of Église Latine de Toulouse.
         Consecrated a bishop on 03/18/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. Reportedly, he was later consecrated sub conditione a bishop on 12/08/1987 in the USA by George J. Musey, a bishop of the Tridentine Latin Rite Church.
         He resides at Thiviers, France. A FRENCHMAN
        •  
      • 03/18/1976 Raymond Maurice xxxx Terrasson (b. in 1932; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 12/23/1974 at Toulouse, France, by Jean Laborie, bishop of the Église Latine de Toulouse.
         Consecrated a bishop on 03/18/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, b by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A FRENCHMAN
         He is the head of The Priory of St. John the Evangelist in Coussac-Benneval, near Limoges, France.
        • 08/28/1994 Timothy Hennebery (b. in 19xx; still living).
           Ordained a priest on 10/17/1990 at xxxx, by Moisés Carmona-Rivera, a bishop of the xxxxx Church.
           Consecrated a bishop on 08/28/1994 at Miami, Florida, by Raymond Maurice Terrasson, a bishop of the xxxxx Church.
          •  
        • 08/28/1998 Terence Dowling (b. in 19xx; still living).
           Ordained a priest on 06/27/1993 at Miami, Florida, by Jean Gérard de la Passion Antoine Laurent Charles Roux, a bishop in the Fraternité de Archéveque Ngô-dinh-Thuc. Later ordained a priest, sub conditione, on 08/xx/1994 at Miami, Florida, by Raymond Maurice Terrasson, a bishop of the xxxxx Church.
           Consecrated a bishop on 08/28/1998 at Coussac-Bonneval, France, by Raymond Maurice Terrasson, a bishop of the xxxxx Church.
          •  
      • 04/20/1976 Michael Celestino Power (b ca. 1955; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 04/05/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Geomez, bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 04/20/1976 at Coussac-Benneval, France, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, and by Francis Bernard Sandler, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Joseph Anastasio Ward (b ca. 1946; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 04/05/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 04/20/1976 at Coussac-Benneval, France, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, and by Francis Bernard Sandler, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church. AN ENGLISHMAN
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Manfred Damaso Zewell (b in 1939; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 04/05/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 04/20/1976 at Coussac-Benneval, France, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, and by Francis Bernard Sandler, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated, sub conditione, a bishop on 10/20/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Francis Sandler, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, and by Maurice Hermenegildo Revaz, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Bp. Zewell in 1980 left the Holy Palmarian Church and was reconciled with the Vatican. He now lives in Salzburg, Austria.
         AN AUSTRIAN
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Gerard Oliver McAdam (b in 1951; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 04/05/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 04/20/1976 at Coussac-Benneval, France, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, and by Francis Bernard Sandler, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 Jesus H. xxxx Jimenez (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 04/05/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on either 5/3/1976 or 04/20/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A SPANIARD
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 John Cirilo Martin (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 04/20/1976 at Coussac-Benneval, France, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 05/03/1976 at Sevilla Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN ENGLISHMAN
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 Seán Tomas O'Neill (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 04/05/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 05/03/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 Hugh Lucas Sandham (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 04/05/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 05/03/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 07/17/1976 Ignatius xxxx Beran (b ca. 1925; d in 2000).
         Ordained a Roman Catholic priest on xx/xx/19xx at xxxxx by Msgr. xxxxx, Roman Catholic Bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 07/17/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A YUGOSLAV
        •  
      • 07/28/1976 James Justo Williams (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a Roman Catholic priest for the White Fathers on xx/xx/19xx at xxxx by Msgr. xxxx, Roman Catholic Bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 07/28/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 08/13/1976 William Rufino Daly (b ca. 1925; d. in 1982).
         Ordained a priest on 06/16/1957 at xxxxx, Ireland, by xxxxx, Roman Catholic Bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 08/13/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. Shortly before his death, he was reconciled with the Roman Catholic Church. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 08/20/1976 Carmelo Elias Pacheco Sanchez (b. in 1949; d in 1997).
         Ordained a priest on 04/28/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 08/20/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A SPANIARD
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Marc Placide Ardinet (b ca. 1955; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 09/04/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 09/15/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. Église Nôtre Dame de Satonay. A FRENCHMAN
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Gary Melquisedec Beinecke (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 09/04/1976 at sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 09/15/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN AMERICAN
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Vernon Cornelio Beinecke (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 09/04/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 09/15/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN AMERICAN
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Hugh Pio Brady (b. in 19xx; sd in 1997).
         Ordained a priest on 09/04/1976 at sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 09/15/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Anthony B. Ambrosio Wadhams (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 09/04/1976 at sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         Consecrated a bishop on 09/15/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN ENGLISHMAN
        •  
      • 10/05/1976 Joseph-Marie Daniel Pasquier (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a Roman Catholic priest on 04/14/1929 at xxxxx by Msgr. xxxxx, Roman Catholic Bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 10/05/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A SWISS
        •  
      • 10/08/1976 Olan Malachias Healey (b ca. 1925; still living).
         Ordained a priest on xx/xx/19xx at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 10/08/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN IRISHMAN
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      • 10/08/1976 John L. xxxx McGrath (b. in 1960; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 04/05/1976 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 10/08/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A NORTHERN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Timothy J. Bernabe Atkins (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 11/12/1976 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/27/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN ENGLISHMAN
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Kieran B. Samule Clarke (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 11/12/1976 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/27/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Vincent Calixto Dalton (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 11/12/1976 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/27/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Terence B. Cipriano Maria Duffin (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 11/12/1976 at xxxxx by xxxxx, bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/27/1976 by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx. He became a Cardinal of the Holy Palmarian Church, but was excommunicated on 06/27/1980. A NORTHERN IRISHMAN
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 John Mary Martin Ebigbo (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 11/12/1976 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/27/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A NIGERIAN
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Richard A. Alejandro Jackson (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 11/12/1976 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/27/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN AMERICAN
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Juan S. F. xxxx Millan (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 11/12/1976 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/27/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A SPANIARD
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Silvero xxxx Peña Vazduez (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on xx/xx/1939 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/27/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A SPANIARD
        •  
      • 11/30/1976 Andrés Rafael Dombrosky (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 11/25/1945 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/30/1976 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN ARGENTINE
        • 01/06/1978 Josef Xavier Gregor Berghofer (see above).
          •  
      • 01/09/1977 John Escolastico Bradley (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a Roman Catholic priest for the White Fathers on xx/xx/19xx at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/09/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A SCOTSMAN
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Mattias S. Baltassar Escobar (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 01/20/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, Consecrated a bishop on 01/09/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A CANARY ISLANDER
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Augustine Tobias Gibson (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 01/14/1977 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/22/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN ARGENTINE
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Brian Raimundo Williams (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 01/09/1977 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/22/1977 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of the xxxxx. AN AUSTRALIAN
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Richard Sixto Corr (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 01/09/1977 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/22/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. In 1982 he was reconciled, as a layman, with the Roman Catholic Church. AN AMERICAN
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Joseph David O'Boyle (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 01/09/1977 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/22/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN AMERICAN
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Patrick Gervasio Tegtmeyer (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 01/09/1977 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/22/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN AMERICAN
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Alfred Tarsicio Zuckschwerdt (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 01/09/1977 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/22/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A GERMAN
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Gilbert xxxx Raymond (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 01/09/1977 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/22/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A CANADIAN
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Claude Juan DesGreseilliers (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 09/01/1977 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/22/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A CANADIAN
        •  
      • 02/13/1977 Manuel T. Benito Barreira (b. in 1950; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 11/12/1976 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/13/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A SPANIARD
        •  
      • 02/13/1977 James Michael Moises Beinecke (b. in 1959; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 11/12/1976 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/13/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. AN AMERICAN
        •  
      • 02/13/1977 José A. Isaac Perales Salvatella (bin 1960; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 09/01/1977 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/13/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A SPANIARD
        •  
      • 02/13/1977 Ferenc Estefan Egerszegi (b ca. 1925; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 05/25/1945 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 02/13/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx. A HUNGARIAN
        •  
      • 09/01/1977 Ciaran Bernardo Broadbery (b. in 1961; still living).
         e-mail address: cbroadbery@mail2.eircom.net
         Ordained a priest on 02/13/1977 at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 09/01/1977 at Sevilla, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Alonso Corral, a bishop of xxxx, and by Camilo Estevez Puga, a bishop of xxxx.
         He was reconciled with the Vatican in 1983. AN IRISHMAN
        • 04/xx/1982 Michael Patrick O'Connor Cox (b. in 1945; still living).
           e-mail address: _________________
           Ordained a priest on 01/01/1978 at xxxxx, by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
           Consecrated a bishop on 04/xx/1982 at Dublin, Ireland, by Ciaran Broadbery, a bishop the Holy Palmarian Church. AN IRISHMAN
           Archbp. Cox left the Holy Palmarian Church in the early 1980s, since 1977 has been a member of the Ordo Mater Dei, and, since April 2000, has been the Archbishop and head of that Order.
          • 05/19/1998 Patrick Buckley (b. in 1952; still living).
             e-mail address: ________________
             Ordained a Roman Catholic priest for the Diocese of Cardiff, Wales, on xx/xx/1976 at Waterford, Ireland, by Msgr. Michael Russell, Bishop of Waterford and Lismore, Ireland.
             Consecrated a bishop on 05/19/1998 at Larne, Co. Antrim, Ireland, by Michael Patrick O'Connor Cox. a bishop of the Ordo Mater Dei. AN IRISHMAN
             Bp. Bukley is the head of the Oratory , in Larne, Co. Antrim, Ireland, and the presiding bishop of the Society of St. Andrew.
            •  
          • xx/xx/19xx Martin Pius Kelly (b. in 1954; still living).
             e-mail address: _______________
             Ordained a priest on 06/07/1999 at xxxx, by Michael Patrick O'Connor Cox, a bishop of the Ordo Mater Dei.
             Consecrated a bishop on 09/03/1999 at xxxx, Ireland, by Michael Patrick O'Connor Cox, a bishop of the Ordo Mater Dei.
             Bp. Kelly is the Bishop of Leinster for, and since April 2000 the Dean of, the Ordo Mater Dei. AN IRISHMAN
            •  
          • 09/xx/1999 Dennis Gerard Ward (b. in 19xx; still living).
             e-mail address: ____________
             Ordained a priest on 06/xx/1999 at xxxx, by xxxx, a bishop of the Ordo Mater Dei.
             Consecrated a bishop on xx/xx/19xx at xxxx, Ireland, by Michael Patrick O'Connor Cox.
             Bp Ward is the Auxiliary Nishop of Ulster and Cooley Peninsula for the Ordo Mater Dei. AN IRISHMAN
            •  
          • 09/09/1999 William Kelman Mackie (b. in 1954; still living).
             e-mail address: bill.mackie@live.co.uk
             Ordained a priest on 06/13/1999 at Cree, County Offaly, Ireland, by Michael Patrick O'Connor Cox, a bishop of the Ordo Mater Dei.
             Consecrated a bishop on 09/09/1999 at Cree, County Offaly, Ireland, by Michael Patrick O'Connor Cox, a bishop of the Ordo Mater Dei.
             Bo Mackie was the Archbishop of Alba for, and from April to August 2000 was the Chancellor of, the Ordo Mater Dei. In 2004 he made contact with Cardinal O'Brien, abandonned any claim to priestly or episcopal orders, and reconciled with the Vatican. A SCOTSMAN.
            •  
          • 01/11/2000 Michael Desmond Hynes (b. in 1947; still living).
             e-mail address: archbishophynes@utvinternet.com
             Ordained a priest on 10/21/1999 at Greenore, County Louth, Ireland, by Dennis Gerard Ward, a bishop of the Ordo Mater Dei, and again on that same day at Saint Colman Church, Cree, Birr, County Offaly, Ireland, by Michael Patrick O'Connor Cox, a bishop of the Ordo Mater Dei,
             Consecrated a bishop on 01/11/2000 at Cree, Birr, County Offaly, Ireland, by Michael Patrick O'Connor Cox, an archbishop and the Patriarch of the Ordo Mater Dei, assisted by Martin Pius Kelly, a bishop of the Order Mater Dei, and by William Kelman Mackie, a bishop of Ordo Mater Dei.   Archbp. Hynes is the Archbishop Superior of the Ordo Maria Apostolorum, http://clik.to/archbishophynes. AN IRISHMAN
             
            •  
          • xx/xx/19xx Thomas Daly (b. in 19xx; still living).
             e-mail address: ______________
             Ordained a priest on xx/xx/19xx at xxxx, by xxxx Bishop of xxxx.
             Consecrated a bishop on xx/xx/19xx at xxxx, Ireland, by Michael Patrick Cox. a bishop of the xxxxx Church. AN IRISHMAN
            •  
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      • 11/1/1978 Benedikt Lorenz Magnus Alberto Gunthner (b. in 1936; still living).
         Ordained a priest on xx/xx/19xx at xxxx, xxxx, by xxxx,. a bishio of xxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/01/1978 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez ("Pope Gregory XVII"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Isidoro Maria Alonso Corral ("Cardinal Isidoro"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, and by xxxx ("Cardinal Leander"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
        •  
      • 11/1/1978 Dario Luis Isaias Cacciavillani (b. in 1923; still living).
         Ordained a priest on xx/xx/19xx at xxxx, xxxx, by xxxx,. a bishio of xxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/01/1978 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez ("Pope Gregory XVII"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Isidoro Maria Alonso Corral ("Cardinal Isidoro"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, and by xxxx ("Cardinal Leander"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
        •  
      • 11/1/1978 Josef Gregor Bernardo Wirtz (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on xx/xx/19xx at xxxx, xxxx, by xxxx,. a bishio of xxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/01/1978 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez ("Pope Gregory XVII"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Isidoro Maria Alonso Corral ("Cardinal Isidoro"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, and by xxxx ("Cardinal Leander"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
        •  
      • 11/01/1978 Alfred Paul Athanasius Maria Seiwert-Fleige (b. in 1939; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 01/01/1976 at xxxxx, Spain, by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on 11/01/1978 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, ("Pope Gregory XVII"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Manuel Isidoro Maria Alonso Corral ("Cardinal Isidoro"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, and by xxxx ("Cardinal Leander"), a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church. He was later onsecrated sub conditione a bishop on 04/08/1994 at Chaillac, France, by Jean Gérard de la Passion Antoine Laurent Charles Roux, a bishop of xxxxx.
         He resides at Rosenheim, Germany (SEE BELOW).
        • 06/26/1994 Charles Ignanga (b. in 19xx; still living).
           Ordained a priest on xx/xx/19xx at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
           Consecrated a bishop on 06/26/1994 at xxxxx, Gabon, by Alfred Paul Athanasius Maria Seiwert-Fleige, a bishop of xxxxx.
           He resides at Libréville, Gabon.
           .
      •  
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      • xx/xx/197x Alvaro Ernest Andrés Bejenaro-Quesada (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 01/01/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Msgr. Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin, Titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia.
         Consecrated a bishop on xx/xx/197x at xxxxx, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
        • 09/09/197x Manfred Bleile (see below).
          •  
      • xx/xx/197x K. J. Francisco Zechmeister (b. in 19xx; still living).
         Ordained a priest on xx/xx/197x at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
         Consecrated a bishop on xx/xx/197x at xxxxx, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
        • 09/09/197x Manfred Bleile (b. in 1944; still living).
           Ordained a priest on xx/xx/19xx at xxxxx by xxxxx, a bishop of xxxxx.
           Consecrated a bishop on xx/xx/197x at xxxxx by K. J. Francisco Zechmeister, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
          •  
      • 01/06/1978 Josef Xavier Gregor Berghofer (b. in 1954; still living).
         Ordained a priest on 12/08/1977 at xxxxx by Clemente Dominguez Gomez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church . A few months later, on 04/30/1978, at Munich, Germany, he was ordained sub conditione a priest by Helmut Norbert Maas, a bishop of the Katholische Kirche der Mariaviten in Deutschland (the German Province of the Polish Mariavite Church).
         Consecrated a bishop on 01/06/1978 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Clemente Dominguez Gómez, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church, assisted by Andrés Dombrosky, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church.
         On 12/10/1978 he was consecrated sub conditione a bishop by Helmut Norbert Maas, a bishop of the Katholische Kirche der Mariaviten in Deutschland, assisted by Carl Ludwig Heigel and Edward Tadeusz Wajrot, both also bishops of the Katholische Kirche der Mariaviten in Deutschland.
         On 03/20/1980 he declared he would no longer exercise any priestly or episcopal function.
        •  
    • 01/11/1976 Manuel Isidoro Maria Alonso Corral (b. in 19xx; still living).
       Ordained a priest for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face on 01/01/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Msgr. Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin, Titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia.
       Consecrated a bishop on 01/11/1976 at xxxxx, Spain, by Msgr. Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin, Titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia.
       Bishop Alonso Corral became a Cardinal and the Secretary of State for the Holy Palmarian Church. A SPANIARD
      • 01/28/1976 Francis Gabriel Coll (see above).
        •  
      • 01/28/1976 Paul Gerald Abraham Fox (see above).
        •  
      • 01/28/1976 Louis Henri Zacarias Moulins (see above).
        •  
      • 01/28/1976 Maurice Hermenegildo Revaz (see above).
        •  
      • 02/01/1976 Vincent Josaphat Fearson (see above).
        •  
      • 02/01/1976 Lucien xxxx Moulins (see above).
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Juan xxxx Amado (see above).
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Brendan xxxx O'Brian (see above).
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Richard Eduardo Mitchell-Cotts (see above).
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Richard xxxx Delaney (see above).
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Francis Cristobal Byrne (see above).
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Geoffrey Francis Estanislao Luc Eifer Lucifer Legionnaire Mayne (see above).
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Peter Serafin McCann (see above).
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Miguel Tereso Salado (see above).
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Richard Subiron Fernandis (see above).
        •  
      • 02/27/1976 Felix A. xxxx Arenal (see above).
        •  
      • 03/04/1976 Ronald Pascual Cameron-Brown (see above).
        •  
      • 03/18/1976 Michel F. xxxx Main (see above).
        •  
      • 03/18/1976 Raymond Maurice xxxx Terrasson (see above).
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Michael Celestino Power (see above).
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Joseph Anastasio Ward (see above).
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Manfred Damaso Zewell (see above).
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Gerard Oliver McAdam (see above).
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Joseph Anastasio Ward
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Manfred Damaso Zewell
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Gerard Oliver McAdam
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 Jesus H. xxxx Jimenez
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 John Cirilo Martin
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 Seán Tomas O'Neill
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 Hugh Lucas Sandham
        •  
      • 07/17/1976 Ignatius xxxx Beran
        •  
      • 07/28/1976 James Justo Williams
        •  
      • 08/13/1976 William Rufino Daly
        •  
      • 08/20/1976 Carmelo Elias Pacheco Sanchez
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Marc Placide Ardinet
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Gary Melquisedec Beinecke
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Vernon Cornelio Beinecke
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Hugh Pio Brady
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Anthony B. Ambrosio Wadhams
        •  
      • 10/05/1976 Joseph-Marie Daniel Pasquier
        •  
      • 10/08/1976 Olan Malachias Healey
        •  
      • 10/08/1976 John L. xxxx McGrath
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Timothy J. Bernabe Atkins
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Kieran B. Samule Clarke
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Vincent Calixto Dalton
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Terence B. Cipriano Maria Duffin
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 John Mary Martin Ebigbo
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Richard A. Alejandro Jackson
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Juan S. F. xxxx Millan
        •  
      • 11/27/1976 Silvero xxxx Peña Vazduez
        •  
      • 11/30/1976 Andrés Rafael Dombrosky
        •  
      • 01/09/1977 John Escolastico Bradley
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Mattias S. Baltassar Escobar
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Augustine Tobias Gibson
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Brian Raimundo Williams
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Richard Sixto Corr
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Joseph David O'Boyle
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Patrick Gervasio Tegtmeyer
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Alfred Tarsicio Zuckschwerdt
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Gilbert xxxx Raymond
        •  
      • 01/22/1977 Claude Juan DesGreseilliers
        •  
      • 02/13/1977 Manuel T. Benito Barreira
        •  
      • 02/13/1977 James Michael Moises Beinecke
        •  
      • 02/13/1977 José A. Isaac Perales Salvatella
        •  
      • 02/13/1977 Ferenc Estefan Egerszegi
        •  
      • 09/01/1977 Ciaran Bernardo Broadbery
        •  
    • 01/11/1976 Camilo Leandro Estevez Puga de Maside (b. in 19xx; d. in 1999).
       Ordained a Roman Catholic priest on 01/01/19xx at xxxx, Galicia, Spain, by Msgr. xxxxx, Roman Catholic Bishop of xxxx.
       Consecrated a bishop on 01/11/1976 at Palmar de Troya, Spain, by Msgr. Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin, Titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia. A SPANIARD
      • 01/28/1976 Francis Gabriel Coll (see above).
        •  
      • 01/28/1976 Paul Gerald Abraham Fox (see above).
        •  
      • 01/28/1976 Louis Henri Zacarias Moulins (see above).
        •  
      • 01/28/1976 Maurice Hermenegildo Revaz (see above).
        •  
      • 02/01/1976 Lucien xxxx Moulins (see above).
        •  
      • 02/01/1976 Vincent Josaphat Fearson (see above).
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Juan xxxx Amado (see above).
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Brendan xxxx O'Brian (see above).
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Richard Eduardo Mitchell-Cotts (see above).
        •  
      • 02/06/1976 Richard xxxx Delaney (see above).
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Francis Cristobal Byrne (see above).
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Geoffrey Francis Estanislao Luc Eifer Lucifer Legionnaire Mayne (see above).
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Peter Serafin McCann (see above).
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Miguel Tereso Salado (see above).
        •  
      • 02/13/1976 Richard Subiron Fernandis (see above).
        •  
      • 02/27/1976 Felix A. xxxx Arenal (see above).
        •  
      • 03/04/1976 Ronald Pascual Cameron-Brown (see above).
        •  
      • 03/18/1976 Michel F. xxxx Main (see above).
        •  
      • 03/18/1976 Raymond Maurice xxxx Terrasson (see above).
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Michael Celestino Power (see above).
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Joseph Anastasio Ward (see above).
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Manfred Damaso Zewell (see above).
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Gerard Oliver McAdam (see above).
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Joseph Anastasio Ward
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Manfred Damaso Zewell
        •  
      • 04/20/1976 Gerard Oliver McAdam
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 Jesus H. xxxx Jimenez
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 John Cirilo Martin
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 Seán Tomas O'Neill
        •  
      • 05/03/1976 Hugh Lucas Sandham
        •  
      • 07/17/1976 Ignatius xxxx Beran
        •  
      • 07/28/1976 James Justo Williams
        •  
      • 08/13/1976 William Rufino Daly
        •  
      • 08/20/1976 Carmelo Elias Pacheco Sanchez
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Marc Placide Ardinet
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Gary Melquisedec Beinecke
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Vernon Cornelio Beinecke
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Hugh Pio Brady
        •  
      • 09/15/1976 Anthony B. Ambrosio Wadhams
        •  


    Anonymous

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #8 on: April 15, 2019, 09:21:20 AM »
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  • Quote
    Canon Revaz, for his part, had even become convinced that the real Pope Paul VI was being held prisoner in a Vatican dungeon, with an imposter playing his rôle as Pope.

    :facepalm:

    Anonymous

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #9 on: April 15, 2019, 09:22:58 AM »
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  • "...as regards those who have already received ordination in this illicit manner..."


    Basically, licit means without approval.  Valid Catholic means Catholic matter, form, and intent were satisfied.

    All four bishops ABL consecrated were done validly Catholic but illicitly.  That is, they are bishops of the Catholic Church but their consecrations were done without approval from the Holy See.


    Rome takes in ex-sspx priests without conditionally ordaining them.  This makes it clear that sspx ordinations are valid.  (Sspx used to conditionally ordain NO priests who join them, but they haven't done so for some time.)


    The same can be applied to a.b. Thuc, God rest his soul. They are illicit but validly Catholic.


    However, a.b. Thuc later regretted all the consecrations he did except the last four.  This is why the Thuc line is squishy.  For safety sake, i stick with the lines of the last four.
    In other words, per #3 Rome does not recognize the validity of any of the illicitly consecrated/ordained Thuc bishops or priests.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #10 on: April 15, 2019, 09:47:54 AM »
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  • This is an abuse of the anonymous forum.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #11 on: April 15, 2019, 09:51:30 AM »
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  • Quote
    In other words, per #3 Rome does not recognize the validity of any of the illicitly consecrated/ordained Thuc bishops or priests.
    No.  The Thuc line is illicit, just like the sspx bishops are illicit.  The Thuc line is valid, just like the sspx bishops are valid.
    Per Quo Primum and Canon Law's emergency canons, it is easy to argue that both the Thuc line and the sspx bishops are legal, due to the crisis in the Church.  But per new-rome's modernistic mindset, they say both are illicit. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #12 on: April 15, 2019, 10:13:43 AM »
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  • “3)...the Church does not nor shall it recognize their ordination...”

    Uhm, no.  What it's clearly saying is that the Vatican doesn't care about the validity of the orders since it considers them canonically illicit.  Regardless of the validity of their orders, etc.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #13 on: April 15, 2019, 10:15:05 AM »
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  • There's an at least tacit recognition of validity, since the excommunication would not technically apply if the orders were not validly conferred.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Rome and the Validity of Thuc Bishops
    « Reply #14 on: April 15, 2019, 10:20:47 AM »
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  • Uhm, no.  What it's clearly saying is that the Vatican doesn't care about the validity of the orders since it considers them canonically illicit.  Regardless of the validity of their orders, etc.
    ...which it explicitly stated it does not recognize 

     

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