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Author Topic: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy  (Read 2617 times)

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Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2024, 09:54:44 AM »
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  • I've always wondered how Constantinople could claim to be a "patriarchate" as it was not one of the original apostolic sees (the others being Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria).

    I claim relative ignorance here.  Can someone shed light on this?
    Constantinople's claim to be a patriarchate was a journey in itself.  In culminated in the passage of canon 28 at the Council of Chalcedon (which almost entirely consisted of eastern bishops), which placed Constantinople over all the other patriarchates except Rome.  Canon 28 is the linchpin to their claims of being all that and a bag of chips, and came about because of the growing ambition of Constantinople.  It was the center of the empire, and they figured they had a right to consolidate and appropriate power.  What they will never tell you, however, is that the papal representatives at the council objected to Canon 28, it was passed in the middle of the night when the papal representatives weren't present, and Pope Leo the Great nullified that canon "by the authority of blessed Peter".  

    Read the acts of the council of Chalcedon itself, as well as the letters of Leo the Great to Emperor Marcian, Empress Pulcharia, Patriarch Anatolius, and John of Cos.  It paints a vivid picture of what really happened.

    Letter 132, which is a letter of Anatolius (Patriarch of Constantinople) to Leo, is pure gold.  In it, Anatolius acknowledges Pope Leo's right to approve or disapprove any part of the council, he protests that his great desire is to "obey" Leo in all things, and he accedes to Leo's commands to correct two unjust administrative changes involving two individuals at the local level in Constantinople (the restoration of a Catholic who unjustly lost his job, and the dismissal of a heretic who had been protected by Anatolius). 

    The end result is that Canon 28 pretty much disappeared for the next several centuries, being resurrected by Photius and, to a greater extent, by Michael Cerularius in the 11th century.  Michael was worse than Photius, in that it was his actions that were responsible for the more permanent separation of Rome and Constantinople. 

    It's important to note that, while Constantinople dropped Canon 28 after Leo nullified it, they continued to behave as if it was in force. 

    The Greeks returned to the Faith and submission to Rome twice after Cerularius.  Once at the second council of Lyons (1274), and the other at the Council of Florence (1439). Florence was the biggest, and it had amazing results. The last two emperors of the Byzantine empire (John VIII Palaiologos and Constantine XI Palaiologos) died as Catholics in submission to the Pope, and the entire reason they went into schism again after the Council of Florence is because of the Turks.  Mehmet the II took Constantinople on Pentecost in 1453, and installed a new patriarch (while the Catholic Patriarch was in Rome) named Gennadius Scholarius, who was the most anti-Catholic bishop he could find.  Scholarius was a protege of Mark of Ephesus, who was the only bishop in the east who refused to sign the docuмents of the Council of Florence.  Mark went back to Constantinople after the council and caused all sorts of trouble, stirring the people up against the reunion.

    Gennadius Scholarius, on being chosen as the new Patriarch, processed through the streets of Constantinople and received the symbols of his new office directly from the hands of Mehmet II, an Ottoman Turk.  This scene is immortalized in a number of Greek icons.

    Why anyone would look at the claims of Orthodoxy seriously is beyond me.


    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #31 on: April 25, 2024, 09:55:07 AM »
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #32 on: April 25, 2024, 09:57:56 AM »
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  • It's important to note that the original Patriarchates, specifically Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch, were all Petrine sees.  St. Peter founded Antioch, St. Mark (Peter's secretary) founded Alexandria, and of course, St. Peter founded and died in Rome.  The others, Jerusalem, Constantinople, etc., came later.  

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #33 on: April 25, 2024, 09:58:10 AM »
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  • Again, that last post was me
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #34 on: April 25, 2024, 10:19:45 AM »
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  • Oh, and in that letter 132 of Anatolius to Leo, he claims he had nothing to do with passing Canon 28.  He blamed that entirely on the clergy of Constantinople (of which he as the head).  ::)
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #35 on: April 25, 2024, 10:26:36 AM »
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  • Constantinople's claim to be a patriarchate was a journey in itself.  In culminated in the passage of canon 28 at the Council of Chalcedon (which almost entirely consisted of eastern bishops), which placed Constantinople over all the other patriarchates except Rome.  Canon 28 is the linchpin to their claims of being all that and a bag of chips, and came about because of the growing ambition of Constantinople.  It was the center of the empire, and they figured they had a right to consolidate and appropriate power.  What they will never tell you, however, is that the papal representatives at the council objected to Canon 28, it was passed in the middle of the night when the papal representatives weren't present, and Pope Leo the Great nullified that canon "by the authority of blessed Peter". 

    Read the acts of the council of Chalcedon itself, as well as the letters of Leo the Great to Emperor Marcian, Empress Pulcharia, Patriarch Anatolius, and John of Cos.  It paints a vivid picture of what really happened.

    Letter 132, which is a letter of Anatolius (Patriarch of Constantinople) to Leo, is pure gold.  In it, Anatolius acknowledges Pope Leo's right to approve or disapprove any part of the council, he protests that his great desire is to "obey" Leo in all things, and he accedes to Leo's commands to correct two unjust administrative changes involving two individuals at the local level in Constantinople (the restoration of a Catholic who unjustly lost his job, and the dismissal of a heretic who had been protected by Anatolius). 

    The end result is that Canon 28 pretty much disappeared for the next several centuries, being resurrected by Photius and, to a greater extent, by Michael Cerularius in the 11th century.  Michael was worse than Photius, in that it was his actions that were responsible for the more permanent separation of Rome and Constantinople. 

    It's important to note that, while Constantinople dropped Canon 28 after Leo nullified it, they continued to behave as if it was in force. 

    The Greeks returned to the Faith and submission to Rome twice after Cerularius.  Once at the second council of Lyons (1274), and the other at the Council of Florence (1439). Florence was the biggest, and it had amazing results. The last two emperors of the Byzantine empire (John VIII Palaiologos and Constantine XI Palaiologos) died as Catholics in submission to the Pope, and the entire reason they went into schism again after the Council of Florence is because of the Turks.  Mehmet the II took Constantinople on Pentecost in 1453, and installed a new patriarch (while the Catholic Patriarch was in Rome) named Gennadius Scholarius, who was the most anti-Catholic bishop he could find.  Scholarius was a protege of Mark of Ephesus, who was the only bishop in the east who refused to sign the docuмents of the Council of Florence.  Mark went back to Constantinople after the council and caused all sorts of trouble, stirring the people up against the reunion.

    Gennadius Scholarius, on being chosen as the new Patriarch, processed through the streets of Constantinople and received the symbols of his new office directly from the hands of Mehmet II, an Ottoman Turk.  This scene is immortalized in a number of Greek icons.

    Why anyone would look at the claims of Orthodoxy seriously is beyond me.

    And there are some Orthodox who want to take it one step further, and proclaim Moscow to be the "Third Rome", in that Constantinople doesn't really exist anymore as a center of Orthodoxy (the Ottoman Turks took care of that).

    Constantinople is almost what we Latins would call a "titular see".

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #36 on: April 25, 2024, 01:28:55 PM »
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  • After the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the Patriarchs of that city have lived in complete subjugation to their Turkish overlords, even to this day.  The Patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch shared a similar fate.  Moscow was made a patriarchate by Constantinople in 1589, was suppressed under Tsar Peter the Great in 1721, being replaced by "The Holy Synod" (under complete government control), and later resurrected in 1917 in time for the communist revolution.

    None of them have any missionary spirit, since under the Turks they were forbidden to evangelize.  That only seems to have changed now, not because the Greeks are worthy of attention, but because of the catastrophe of the current crisis.   In other words, the Novus Ordo church is so bad, it makes the Greeks look good.  No one would seriously consider the Orthodox as a viable option in 1950.  The main reason people are struggling with it now is because they don't believe the words of Christ: "Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall never prevail against it." 
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #37 on: April 25, 2024, 02:23:44 PM »
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  • Here is a list of books I have purchased and read over the last year that are related to this topic:  Most of them are available on Archive.org for free.


    The History of Heresies and Their Refutation Paperback - St. Alphonsus
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0976911809/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0976911809&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    The Primacy of the Apostolic See Vindicated - 1848
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1313537446/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1313537446&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    The Papacy and the First Councils of the Church - 1910
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1331097614/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1331097614&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    The Primitive Church and the See of Peter - 1894
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1530097878/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1530097878&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    The Pope: The Vicar of Christ, the Head of the Church - 1885
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    The Faith of Catholics Volume 2 - 1910
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    The Tradition Of The Syriac Church Of Antioch: Concerning The Primacy And The Prerogatives Of St. Peter And Of His Successors The Roman Pontiffs - 1871
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    Vindicating the Filioque: The Church Fathers at the Council of Florence - 2023
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    On the Apostolical and Infallible Authority of the Pope: When Teaching the Faithful and His Relation to a General Council - 1869
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    What you will find on the Orthodox side is a complete inability to explain how for the first thousand years, they submitted to Rome, obeyed Rome, and acknowledged Rome's supremacy over the whole Christian world.  This is so clearly and profoundly docuмented, it takes a truly dishonest man to deny it.  But dishonesty is the essence of the Orthodox apologist.

    The reason I've had to do so much reading on this is because my brother did exactly what you are considering, he abandoned the wave-tossed Barque of Peter in favor of the loose confederation of waring tribes that is Orthodoxy.  He lost his faith eight or nine years ago, and hid it very well.  Two years ago, he surprised all of us by becoming a catechumen at the local Antiochian Orthodox Church. 

    He ceased to believe the words and promises of Christ, and in the midst of the storm, he chose to jump ship rather than patiently endure the passion of the Mystical Body of Christ.  The temptation to gaze upon the crucified Church, held up to the whole world as an object of ridicule, and to doubt that this truly is the Church Christ founded is a tremendous trap.  My brother can't fathom how this could happen to the True Church, in the same way that so many of the apostles and Jєωs couldn't fathom how God Himself could be crucified.  Is the servant above his Master?  Do we deserve anything less?

    His church was not founded on the Rock of Peter.  His church does not have the keys.  His church does not have the promise of Christ, that the gates of hell will never prevail against it.

    You seek safety and security, peace and tranquility.  You will not find it in Orthodoxy.  Not only because it is a false religion, but because they have nothing but stagnation and disunity to offer.  They are the tattered remnants of a long-dead empire, a decaying corpse that should have been buried centuries ago.

    And you will have to be prepared to deny the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady.  You will have to reject the true nature of original sin, taking on a Pelagian view of it instead.  You must be prepared to deny the distinction between mortal and venial sin, the concepts of purgatory, indulgences, and reparation.  Hell to the orthodox mind is undefined.  Prepare yourself to embrace Palamism, and an unending string of other errors.  And because of a lack of scholasticism and truth, you must be prepared to accept "it's a mystery" as an answer to any question they don't have an answer for, which are considerable. 

    No, you will not find what you're looking for there.
     
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #38 on: April 25, 2024, 03:45:01 PM »
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  • Some of the links above weren't working.  I'll try again.  If these don't work, just search for the titles on Amazon or Archive.org

    The History of Heresies and Their Refutation Paperback - St. Alphonsus
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0976911809/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0976911809&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Primacy of the Apostolic See Vindicated - 1848
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1313537446/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1313537446&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Papacy and the First Councils of the Church - 1910
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1331097614/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1331097614&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Primitive Church and the See of Peter - 1894
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1530097878/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1530097878&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Pope: The Vicar of Christ, the Head of the Church - 1885
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Faith of Catholics Volume 2 - 1910
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Tradition Of The Syriac Church Of Antioch: Concerning The Primacy And The Prerogatives Of St. Peter And Of His Successors The Roman Pontiffs - 1871
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    Vindicating the Filioque: The Church Fathers at the Council of Florence - 2023
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    On the Apostolical and Infallible Authority of the Pope: When Teaching the Faithful and His Relation to a General Council - 1869
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #39 on: April 26, 2024, 02:11:06 AM »
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  • Some of the links above weren't working.  I'll try again.  If these don't work, just search for the titles on Amazon or Archive.org

    The History of Heresies and Their Refutation Paperback - St. Alphonsus
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0976911809/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0976911809&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Primacy of the Apostolic See Vindicated - 1848
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1313537446/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1313537446&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Papacy and the First Councils of the Church - 1910
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1331097614/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1331097614&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Primitive Church and the See of Peter - 1894
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1530097878/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1530097878&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Pope: The Vicar of Christ, the Head of the Church - 1885
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Faith of Catholics Volume 2 - 1910
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    The Tradition Of The Syriac Church Of Antioch: Concerning The Primacy And The Prerogatives Of St. Peter And Of His Successors The Roman Pontiffs - 1871
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    Vindicating the Filioque: The Church Fathers at the Council of Florence - 2023
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    On the Apostolical and Infallible Authority of the Pope: When Teaching the Faithful and His Relation to a General Council - 1869
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/on.com/gp//ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=on.com/gp/&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    OP here.  Wow thank you very much for your thorough posts and recommendations!  As there are quite a few books listed here, are there 2 or 3 which you found most useful or preferable to the others?  I have to start somewhere after all, and would like to have the most forceful arguments and evidence presented.  Thank you again. God bless you.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #40 on: April 26, 2024, 05:44:09 AM »
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  • After the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the Patriarchs of that city have lived in complete subjugation to their Turkish overlords, even to this day.  The Patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch shared a similar fate.  Moscow was made a patriarchate by Constantinople in 1589, was suppressed under Tsar Peter the Great in 1721, being replaced by "The Holy Synod" (under complete government control), and later resurrected in 1917 in time for the communist revolution.

    None of them have any missionary spirit, since under the Turks they were forbidden to evangelize.  That only seems to have changed now, not because the Greeks are worthy of attention, but because of the catastrophe of the current crisis.  In other words, the Novus Ordo church is so bad, it makes the Greeks look good.  No one would seriously consider the Orthodox as a viable option in 1950.  The main reason people are struggling with it now is because they don't believe the words of Christ: "Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall never prevail against it."

    I have to think that the typical Catholic in the pew, in 1950, would have thought of the Orthodox as occupying quaint ethnic enclaves which, as I noted above, basically functioned as social clubs (and possibly aid societies as well) for non-mainstream nationalities.  I have a vague memory of, in my boyhood (which, sadly, was not Catholic), thinking of Greeks and Lebanese as "maybe being like Jєωs or something".


    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #41 on: April 26, 2024, 02:23:11 PM »
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  • OP here.  Wow thank you very much for your thorough posts and recommendations!  As there are quite a few books listed here, are there 2 or 3 which you found most useful or preferable to the others?  I have to start somewhere after all, and would like to have the most forceful arguments and evidence presented.  Thank you again. God bless you.
    That depends on what information you're looking for.  As you can tell, most of the selections above deal with the Papacy and the early Church, and not even specifically Orthodoxy.  I focused on that because that was at the heart of my discussions with my brother.  He made broad claims that the papacy as we know it didn't exist in the first millennium, which is a complete load of rubbish.  What I discovered in my reading is that nearly all of the Orthodox arguments/apologetics in this area come from the Anglicans, particularly as a result of the Oxford movement.  The Anglicans started reading the early fathers, and once they realized those fathers were thoroughly Catholic, there were two responses:  1) pour through the history books and try to come up with excuses for why they can avoid converting and continue justifying their schism, or 2) accept reality and convert to Catholicism.  

    The evidence for the claims of the papacy are so overwhelming in the early Church as to be a source of draw-dropping amazement that anyone can deny it.  I even challenged my brother to find a SINGLE SOURCE in the early Church that argues that the pope was simply first among equals, or that argues the pope is not the visible head of the Church, or that he is not infallible, or that he does not have universal jurisdiction, etc.  He couldn't find one father, or one historical source that agrees with his assessment of the papacy.  Not even the heretics and schismatics at the time argued such things.

    But the claims of the papacy, including infallibility, universal jurisdiction, being visible head of the Church, and wielding the power of the keys is present in undeniable fashion from the writings of the fathers, the popes, in the acts of the councils, the private letters and public statements of patriarchs, emperors, bishops, popes and kings.  It was accepted as a matter of course.  It was never challenged; it was ignored at times, but was never challenged.  

    Nearly every objection to the Papacy is dealt with in extraordinary depth and completeness by St. Robert Bellarmine in his work "On the Roman Pontiff" (available from Mediatrix Press).  

    My brother has no good will.  I have shown him docuмent after docuмent, from popes, councils and patriarchs, that express in the clearest terms the claims of the papacy, and he is blind and deaf to it.  I showed him Pope Leo the Great's letter 10, as one of many examples, and read it to him.  It had about as much effect as rain on a duck's back.

    But if he will not believe the words of Christ in Matthew 16:18, then why would he accept the words of men?  He has made up his mind, and has hardened his heart.  

    The bottom line is this:  I don't quite know what information you're looking for.



    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #42 on: April 26, 2024, 02:41:40 PM »
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  • I suppose one of the first ones I would recommend would be The Primitive Church and the See of Peter, since it deals with many of the Anglican arguments against the papacy.

    St. Robert Bellarmine's "On the Roman Pontiff" mentioned above is excellent, but lengthy.  

    Fr. Adrian Fortescue's work on the Orthodox Church (mentioned by another poster) is an excellent overview of the historical situation.  And he is refreshingly fair in his treatment of the Greeks.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #43 on: April 26, 2024, 08:57:07 PM »
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  • That depends on what information you're looking for.  As you can tell, most of the selections above deal with the Papacy and the early Church, and not even specifically Orthodoxy.  I focused on that because that was at the heart of my discussions with my brother.  He made broad claims that the papacy as we know it didn't exist in the first millennium, which is a complete load of rubbish.  What I discovered in my reading is that nearly all of the Orthodox arguments/apologetics in this area come from the Anglicans, particularly as a result of the Oxford movement.  The Anglicans started reading the early fathers, and once they realized those fathers were thoroughly Catholic, there were two responses:  1) pour through the history books and try to come up with excuses for why they can avoid converting and continue justifying their schism, or 2) accept reality and convert to Catholicism. 

    The evidence for the claims of the papacy are so overwhelming in the early Church as to be a source of draw-dropping amazement that anyone can deny it.  I even challenged my brother to find a SINGLE SOURCE in the early Church that argues that the pope was simply first among equals, or that argues the pope is not the visible head of the Church, or that he is not infallible, or that he does not have universal jurisdiction, etc.  He couldn't find one father, or one historical source that agrees with his assessment of the papacy.  Not even the heretics and schismatics at the time argued such things.

    But the claims of the papacy, including infallibility, universal jurisdiction, being visible head of the Church, and wielding the power of the keys is present in undeniable fashion from the writings of the fathers, the popes, in the acts of the councils, the private letters and public statements of patriarchs, emperors, bishops, popes and kings.  It was accepted as a matter of course.  It was never challenged; it was ignored at times, but was never challenged. 

    Nearly every objection to the Papacy is dealt with in extraordinary depth and completeness by St. Robert Bellarmine in his work "On the Roman Pontiff" (available from Mediatrix Press). 

    My brother has no good will.  I have shown him docuмent after docuмent, from popes, councils and patriarchs, that express in the clearest terms the claims of the papacy, and he is blind and deaf to it.  I showed him Pope Leo the Great's letter 10, as one of many examples, and read it to him.  It had about as much effect as rain on a duck's back.

    But if he will not believe the words of Christ in Matthew 16:18, then why would he accept the words of men?  He has made up his mind, and has hardened his heart. 

    The bottom line is this:  I don't quite know what information you're looking for.

    Your posts in this thread have been excellent and informative. I always think of the orthodox as the first protestants. 

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Reputations of Eastern Orthodoxy
    « Reply #44 on: April 26, 2024, 09:41:16 PM »
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  • And there are some Orthodox who want to take it one step further, and proclaim Moscow to be the "Third Rome", in that Constantinople doesn't really exist anymore as a center of Orthodoxy (the Ottoman Turks took care of that).


    Rome isn't a center of "orthodoxy" today either, so......