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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on September 24, 2024, 10:06:28 PM
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I think I may be doing too much for a layperson.
Between morning/evening prayers, 3x rosary, daily spiritual reading, a few other small prayers and the Divine Office I am starting to feel very wearied. I think the Divine Office might be the biggest thing for me the cut out (not the first cut i've made), though I have only been saying it for over a year now, at first I was very fervent in my prayer life but was the years have gone by I have become much more lukewarm to the point that my prayers feel like a chore that I 'have to do' (and I do make sure I do them). I am also noticeably more distracted in prayer than when I started, even meditating on the mysteries of the rosary feel impossible, I can only think upon the same events so many times before it became dull and without new insights, and also between meditating and saying the Hail Marys it is difficult to focus on both.
I just feel so tired.
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Consult a good Traditional Priest. As a Lay Person, I say morning offering with 3 Hail Mary devotion. Wear Brown Scapular. Pray 5 decade Rosary daily. 10 to 15 min Meditation on the 7 Sorrows Mary devotion daily and 3 Hail Mary devotion before bed.
This gets in all of the requirements without interfering with my daily duties which is just as important in the eyes of God.
Everyone is different and needs to do what they feel like God is asking them and follow advice of a true Priest who is a good confessor.
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Consult a good Traditional Priest. As a Lay Person, I say morning offering with 3 Hail Mary devotion. Wear Brown Scapular. Pray 5 decade Rosary daily. 10 to 15 min Meditation on the 7 Sorrows Mary devotion daily and 3 Hail Mary devotion before bed.
This gets in all of the requirements without interfering with my daily duties which is just as important in the eyes of God.
Everyone is different and needs to do what they feel like God is asking them and follow advice of a true Priest who is a good confessor.
I guess I will, but he has mentioned in the past that lay people should try to have 2 hours of prayer life per day (counting everything).
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It is normal for prayer to feel difficult and arid a you progress in the spiritual life.
If you have the time, read the book "The Three Ages of the Interior Life" by Fr. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange. It is all thoroughly explained there.
You can find the book in its entirety here:
https://www.christianperfection.info/ (https://www.christianperfection.info/)
You probably are seeing this situation as a bad thing, but I believe that it can actually be a sign that you are progressing. God is testing you to see if you really love Him for what He is, and not for the solace that you find in spiritual things.
Don't be disheartened.
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It is normal for prayer to feel difficult and arid a you progress in the spiritual life.
If you have the time, read the book "The Three Ages of the Interior Life" by Fr. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange. It is all thoroughly explained there.
You can find the book in its entirety here:
https://www.christianperfection.info/ (https://www.christianperfection.info/)
You probably are seeing this situation as a bad thing, but I believe that it can actually be a sign that you are progressing. God is testing you to see if you really love Him for what He is, and not for the solace that you find in spiritual things.
Don't be disheartened.
So should I continue saying the divine office? If I were to ever get married I don't know how I would have time for this.
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So should I continue saying the divine office? If I were to ever get married I don't know how I would have time for this.
I presume that you know that you are not obliged to say the Divine Office, right?
Obviously, I am no one to tell you how much or what to pray. I am only offering a contribution that I believe that will help you.
If you have the time, I think that it is a good thing to pray the Breviary, but there might be other spiritual exercises that could be a better use of your time. I have the impression that the Breviary has become a source of anxiety to you. You could try to omit the shortest hours and do some meditation or some other exercise to see how it goes.
When you get married, you will have to reorganize your priorities. It is no good praying all the hours of the Breviary if it prevents you from giving the necessary attention to your family.
It would be very good if you could find a really holy Traditionalist priest to guide you, but I know how hard it is to find any Traditionalist priest these days, let alone a holy one.
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I think I may be doing too much for a layperson.
Between morning/evening prayers, 3x rosary, daily spiritual reading, a few other small prayers and the Divine Office I am starting to feel very wearied. I think the Divine Office might be the biggest thing for me the cut out (not the first cut i've made), though I have only been saying it for over a year now, at first I was very fervent in my prayer life but was the years have gone by I have become much more lukewarm to the point that my prayers feel like a chore that I 'have to do' (and I do make sure I do them). I am also noticeably more distracted in prayer than when I started, even meditating on the mysteries of the rosary feel impossible, I can only think upon the same events so many times before it became dull and without new insights, and also between meditating and saying the Hail Marys it is difficult to focus on both.
I just feel so tired.
Everyone gets distracted in prayer to some extent, some to a greater extent. It's something we all have to live with as long as we're in this world, watch the below video on this.
As GB said, you're not obligated to pray the Divine Office, perhaps you should seriously consider replacing that with some other prayers or spiritual activity? May I suggest replacing the Divine Office with listening to good trad sermons every day? Some suggestions..... This one (https://www.youtube.com/@promotorfidei1766) and this one (https://rumble.com/c/Cathinfo) I like, but there are plenty of others out there.
https://youtu.be/F2atOBv1JMI?t=1
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(...) If I were to ever get married I don't know how I would have time for this.
If your state in life changes, naturally, your love and service to God is expressed in other ways besides prayer. Here is a quote from St. Vincent de Paul (his charism compelled him to help the poor):
If a needy person requires medicine or other help during prayer time, do whatever has to be done with peace of mind. Offer the deed to God as your prayer. Do not become upset or feel guilty because you interrupted your prayer to serve the poor. God is not neglected if you leave him for such service. One of God’s works is merely interrupted so that another can be carried out. So when you leave prayer to serve some poor person, remember that this very service is performed for God. Charity is certainly greater than any rule.
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1 Thessalonians 5:17-18: Pray without ceasing. In all things give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you all. Extinguish not the spirit.
The reduced time you have for prayer can still be very efficacious even if the formal part of it is limited to what time is available to you.
Do you find that the words of those prayers surface as you're busy going about your day? Good, then encourage it and be open to those spontaneous moments. The added benefit is that good phrases will start to replace whatever worries, distractions, and self-naysaying may be running through your mind.
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You probably are seeing this situation as a bad thing, but I believe that it can actually be a sign that you are progressing. God is testing you to see if you really love Him for what He is, and not for the solace that you find in spiritual things.
Don't be disheartened.
This.
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Can you perhaps switch up your morning and evening prayers? I have both a St. Andrew daily missal, and a Baronius press missal. I'll usually pray morning prayers from one for a few days, and then use the other for a few days. The morning prayer in the Baronius press missal is nice because it includes the litany of the Holy Name of Jesus, but the morning prayer in St. Andrew daily missal includes the Angelus, and also a commemoration of that days' particular saint to look up and ask for their intercession. Having different morning prayers (and evening prayers, if you like) keeps things from getting too routine. For evening prayers I use a short form, because I'm usually very tired in the evenings.
You can also find different visual aids for the various Rosary mysteries, so that you don't always look at the same one. I have an old set of Tan books visual aids for the Rosary, but I think that Tan no longer offers this for sale.
You can also ask for Our lady's help in knowing what to do about this situation, but perhaps you've already done that.
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Better to persevere in stability rather than change things up, and to only change things up when really necessary. If you can, continue with what you are doing, only try to be more fervent. Just try it for another couple months and see if you still need change.
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Better to persevere in stability rather than change things up, and to only change things up when really necessary. If you can, continue with what you are doing, only try to be more fervent. Just try it for another couple months and see if you still need change.
You can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results
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Your problem is you have become both stagnant and overwhelmed at the same time....stagnant in the repetition of the same prayers day after day and overwhelmed by trying to do it all while knowing there is much you're not doing.
Holy mother church is designed to keep things simple and fresh and the faithful followed her lead for centuries up to Vat II. Since then people have forgotten how to pray with the Church.
The Church's Liturgical year,
Advent,
Lent,
Easter
Pentecost
and time after Pentecost.
The Church's monthly dedications,
1, Holy Infancy
2 Holy Trinity/Holy Family
3 St Joseph
4 Holy Ghost/ Lent
5 Blessed Virgin
6 Sacred Heart
7 Precious Blood
8 Most Pure Heart of Mary
9 Holy Cross
10 Holy Angels
11 Poor Souls in Purgatory
12 Immaculate Conception/Advent
The Church's daily dedications.
The Holy Trinity
The Holy Ghost/ Poor Souls in Purgatory
St Michael and the Holy Angels
St. Joseph
Blessed Sacrament
The Passion/ Sorrowful Mother
The Blessed Virgin Mary
It is so easy to follow the church's plan as above that you will find you are praying less but with more fervour and devotion and you'll never become stagnant, as everyday is different and every month and season is different. Within this framework you choose which of the multitude of prayers/devotions you feel attached to...some a litany, some a chaplet, some a favourite prayer or even a sacrifice in their honour, all the while keeping that specific dedication in mind throughout the day. By the end of the month you're on to a different set of devotions, no chance for your mind to wonder. There is a time and place for everything...you don't have to do everything all the time.
Of course you make your morning offering, intention to gain all indulgences throughout the day and any special intention you have and your night prayers, which leaves you time for your rosary according to the Liturgical season and any special intention that arises unexpectedly.
It will take you months to get this set into your routine but I guarantee you'll never become stagnant or overwhelmed again and your devotion and reverence will increase by leaps and bounds.
By the time you get married and have a family it will be second nature and you'll teach your children how to pray and not just say prayers.
The biggest help I can offer is... get yourself a Father Lasance "My Prayer Book" and in the mean time here is a link to his book starting with the above mentioned dedications.
https://archive.org/details/MyPrayerBookHappinessInGoodness/page/161/mode/2up
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I started saying 3 rosaries a day in 2006. I will say this, +Fr. Leblanc encouraged me. He said he is not boasting that he says 3 rosaries a day.
I can say that every time I pick up my rosary I get distractions. It is certain to me that demons don't like what I am doing. I get yucky feelings. I ask Our LADY to help me and my guardian angel. I prefer to say a rosary in the morning in bed. Then a short morning offering. Then my husband and I have a rosary together after breakfast. I like saying the Sorrowful with my husband. I get very distracted with the Sorrowful and with him it helps my distractions. Then I like going around the house looking at our statues, pictures and crucifixes. when I can I like rosary outside, if I can, or short walking in front of the house.
I say the Little Office of Our Lady and night prayers. I like reading catholic material. I sure do not like the yucky thoughts that come to me. I am older and I must take Eve. Prime Rose oil for those feelings to stay away( age 72).
When I pray I also think of those who need prayer, be they priests religious, family, poor souls etc. That helps me, because I know there are those who hurt and need conversion. I never vowed to say 3 rosaries, but I did tell Our Lord, it is a goal.
Bless you, for pleasing The Holy Trinity and Our Lady!
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Your problem is you have become both stagnant and overwhelmed at the same time....stagnant in the repetition of the same prayers day after day and overwhelmed by trying to do it all while knowing there is much you're not doing.
Holy mother church is designed to keep things simple and fresh and the faithful followed her lead for centuries up to Vat II. Since then people have forgotten how to pray with the Church.
The Church's Liturgical year,
Advent,
Lent,
Easter
Pentecost
and time after Pentecost.
The Church's monthly dedications,
1, Holy Infancy
2 Holy Trinity/Holy Family
3 St Joseph
4 Holy Ghost/ Lent
5 Blessed Virgin
6 Sacred Heart
7 Precious Blood
8 Most Pure Heart of Mary
9 Holy Cross
10 Holy Angels
11 Poor Souls in Purgatory
12 Immaculate Conception/Advent
The Church's daily dedications.
The Holy Trinity
The Holy Ghost/ Poor Souls in Purgatory
St Michael and the Holy Angels
St. Joseph
Blessed Sacrament
The Passion/ Sorrowful Mother
The Blessed Virgin Mary
It is so easy to follow the church's plan as above that you will find you are praying less but with more fervour and devotion and you'll never become stagnant, as everyday is different and every month and season is different. Within this framework you choose which of the multitude of prayers/devotions you feel attached to...some a litany, some a chaplet, some a favourite prayer or even a sacrifice in their honour, all the while keeping that specific dedication in mind throughout the day. By the end of the month you're on to a different set of devotions, no chance for your mind to wonder. There is a time and place for everything...you don't have to do everything all the time.
Of course you make your morning offering, intention to gain all indulgences throughout the day and any special intention you have and your night prayers, which leaves you time for your rosary according to the Liturgical season and any special intention that arises unexpectedly.
It will take you months to get this set into your routine but I guarantee you'll never become stagnant or overwhelmed again and your devotion and reverence will increase by leaps and bounds.
By the time you get married and have a family it will be second nature and you'll teach your children how to pray and not just say prayers.
The biggest help I can offer is... get yourself a Father Lasance "My Prayer Book" and in the mean time here is a link to his book starting with the above mentioned dedications.
https://archive.org/details/MyPrayerBookHappinessInGoodness/page/161/mode/2up
How can I make a good morning offering? Also I may need to readjust my morning and evening prayers but I'm not sure what makes for good ones. I'm currently doing prayers in the missal + extra devotions, it probably takes me 15-20 minutes to do them all.
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You can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results
Ah, ok, stop persevering for my salvation will get me to heaven? It's easy to lessen a burden, but harder to take it back up than persevering with it. My thoughts are to persevere a while longer. Sometimes it helps to fool yourself, like "I'll give it up in a month", and suddenly your are happy, then find a month later you have no problem continuing what you are doing. It may just be a test, a dry spell. Perhaps the fervency of the prayer life will return after some perseverance. I just remember reading recently about a saint who was in a pleasant, but not particularly special circuмstance, who had an opportunity arise with the potential of a better outcome. He went for it, it failed almost immediately, and when he returned to where he was, another had already filled that position. So he spent the rest of his life in penance. That was a grass is greener on the other side sort of thing, though it may not apply all that well here. I often think how some spiritual directors don't recommend much time spent on daily prayers, and how much is right for me. Habits are harder to make than break. I say do more while you can and while it's a habit. Kind of like getting in your spiritual reading, study, and meditations in before you are married with children, because the time may come when you don't have time for those things anymore.
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Ah, ok, stop persevering for my salvation will get me to heaven?
Don't be a jerk I never suggested any such thing.
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How can I make a good morning offering? Also I may need to readjust my morning and evening prayers but I'm not sure what makes for good ones. I'm currently doing prayers in the missal + extra devotions, it probably takes me 15-20 minutes to do them all.
If you look through a dozen missals and prayer books you'll find morning prayers and night prayers and all of them different and none of them indulgenced. That tells us that the Church doesn't have a set formula of prayers at those times.
Think of those times as a one on one conversation with God.
In your own words, offer all your prayers, works joys and sufferings of the coming day for His greater glory, in reparation of your sins, the relief of the poor souls in purgatory and any special intention you have.
Implore His blessing on your day and on all your family, friends, relatives, acquaintances and descendants (yes now is the time to include them as they are going to need it even if you don't have any yet) in time and in eternity (this eliminates a long list of names, both alive and dead, except on the day of their birth or death when you might wish to make special mention)
Then offer acts of faith hope and charity and these don't have to be long formulated prayers but can be as brief as the acts prayed on the beads for the dead which are:-
My God I believe in Thee because Thou art truth itself.
I hope in Thee because Thou are infinitely merciful.
I love Thee with my whole heart because Thou art infinitely perfect and I love my neighbour as myself for the love of Thee.
I am truly sorry for all my sins because Thou art infinitely good and sin displeased Thee. I firmly resolve never to offend Thee again.
If you wish add three Hail Mary's or any short devotion you like e.g. St Michael and/or guardian angel prayer.
Your prayers don't have to be long .... BUT.... it's better to say what you mean and genuinely mean what you say. God already knows what you want and what you need, He just wants to hear you acknowledge it.
This should make your prayers in the morning rather brief.
Before bed pray the most perfect act of contrition you possibly can and in charity pray for those who are about to die, especially those who have no one to pray for them.
During the day, pray any prayers or devotions that will sanctify the day, month and season.
Remember, it's not the quantity of your prayers but the quality.
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I guess I will, but he has mentioned in the past that lay people should try to have 2 hours of prayer life per day (counting everything).
Your priest said this in a sermon? This seems incredible. Can I ask who this priest is?
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Your priest said this in a sermon? This seems incredible. Can I ask who this priest is?
Not in a sermon. I'll rather not say.
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Not in a sermon. I'll rather not say.
Does his name begin with "R" and end with "ipperger" by chance? :laugh1:
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Your priest said this in a sermon? This seems incredible. Can I ask who this priest is?
I was surprised at the 2 hours per day for laity too.
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This kind of comment is very irresponsible. Some people might develop scruples, some others might become discouraged in their prayers, because they cannot do the two hours.
The Breviary takes about two hours a day, and the Church never required the laity to pray it. It is not feasible for most people. Even busy priests sometimes have to make some particular efforts to do it.
A lot of people cannot see the difference between what is simply a recommendation and what is an obligation, and this is why priests should be more explicit about this distinction.
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We can do our best to call to mind the presence of God as often as we can, asking for help, thanking Him, even making little spiritual communions and re-offering our thoughts, words, and actions of the day. We can frequently try to remember to work for/with our boss, customers, and employees as if they are Jesus, and to treat the business and its property as God's, while striving to imitate Christ according to our duty of state. Mentally singing hymns and the kyriale. This all adds up to several minutes of prayer, if not even a few hours.
How often do we rather lower our mind to vacation, sports, hobbies, alcohol, relaxation, ect. It's almost like a prayer to Idols. Surely we spend much time thinking about what we love.
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I guess I will, but he has mentioned in the past that lay people should try to have 2 hours of prayer life per day (counting everything).
"Should" and "try" don't bind. It's something to aim for if you can. 15 decades is about 45 minutes to an hour. Add in morning and evening prayers, plus the novena or litany of the day/season, plus maybe another daily devotion of one's choosing (say, for the souls in Purgatory), and it gets up there around two hours anyway.
So people here don't have to speculate, what were the priest's exact words, even if you don't want to name him?
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"Should" and "try" don't bind. It's something to aim for if you can. 15 decades is about 45 minutes to an hour. Add in morning and evening prayers, plus the novena or litany of the day/season, plus maybe another daily devotion of one's choosing (say, for the souls in Purgatory), and it gets up there around two hours anyway.
So people here don't have to speculate, what were the priest's exact words, even if you don't want to name him?
I don't remember the exact words, but laypeople should try to hit 2 hours of prayer a day, priests 4 hours, monks 6. This include everything they do, so I could offer something up to God like doing the dishes and it should count.
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Maybe we should praying several times a day.
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I must decrease so God can increase.
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Op here, I have not changed anything since my initial post. I probably won't until my life circuмstances change.
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"Should" and "try" don't bind. It's something to aim for if you can. 15 decades is about 45 minutes to an hour. Add in morning and evening prayers, plus the novena or litany of the day/season, plus maybe another daily devotion of one's choosing (say, for the souls in Purgatory), and it gets up there around two hours anyway.
So people here don't have to speculate, what were the priest's exact words, even if you don't want to name him?
Disagree. Anyone who is going through 15 Decades in that short amount of time is most likely doing it irreverrantly or just "trying to get it done," I should know I've done them like this before. It should take roughly an hour and a half (give or take about 5 minutes) if we are saying the prayers slowly and deliberately and briefly meditating on the mysteries like we're supposed to.
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Disagree. Anyone who is going through 15 Decades in that short amount of time is most likely doing it irreverrantly or just "trying to get it done," I should know I've done them like this before. It should take roughly an hour and a half (give or take about 5 minutes) if we are saying the prayers slowly and deliberately and briefly meditating on the mysteries like we're supposed to.
I like the way +Fellay said it, although I don't remember the exact quote, he likened praying the rosary to being at a play where the the mysteries are like the big stage and our main focus throughout, the prayers are like the background music.
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Disagree. Anyone who is going through 15 Decades in that short amount of time is most likely doing it irreverrantly or just "trying to get it done," I should know I've done them like this before. It should take roughly an hour and a half (give or take about 5 minutes) if we are saying the prayers slowly and deliberately and briefly meditating on the mysteries like we're supposed to.
Yet if the necessary disposition is missing, clocking in at that minimum hour and a half is no guarantee either, even if a person is enunciating out loud and kneeling in public in a group. The externals are only the supports toward the goal, not the goal itself. Our Lady knows whether someone has prayed well or not.
Better advice is from St. Louis de Montfort, especially re this thread, the section beginning with Forty-First Rose, With a Purity of Intention (http://www.catholictradition.org/Classics/secret-rosary41.htm). Here are the first few paragraphs:
It is not so much the length of a prayer, but the fervor with which it is said which pleases Almighty God and touches His Heart. One single Hail Mary that is said properly is worth more than one hundred and fifty that are badly said. Most Catholics say the Rosary, the whole fifteen mysteries or five of them anyway or, at least a few decades. So why is it then that so few of them give up their sins and go forward in the spiritual life? Surely it must be because they are not saying them as they should. It is a good thing to think over how we should pray if we really want to please God and become more holy.
To say the Holy Rosary to advantage one must be in a state of grace or at the very least be fully determined to give up mortal sin. This we know because all our theology teaches us that good works and prayers are only dead works if they are done in a state of mortal sin. Therefore they can neither be pleasing to God nor help us gain eternal life. This is why Ecclesiastes says: "Praise is not seemly in the mouth of a sinner." [1 (http://www.catholictradition.org/Classics/secret-rosary41.htm#1)] Praise of God and the salutation of the Angel and the very Prayer of Jesus Christ are not pleasing to God when they are said by unrepentant sinners.
Our Lord said: "This people honoreth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me." [2 (http://www.catholictradition.org/Classics/secret-rosary41.htm#2)] It is as though He was saying: "Those who join My Confraternity and say their Rosary every day (even perhaps the fifteen decades), but without being sorry for their sins offer Me lip service only and their hearts are far from Me."
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15 decades is about 45 minutes to an hour.
This is excessively SHORT to you? In my experience, this is about the avg.
It should take roughly an hour and a half (give or take about 5 minutes) if we are saying the prayers slowly and deliberately and briefly meditating on the mysteries like we're supposed to.
An hour and a half is excessively long. Saying such "slowly and deliberately" is not necessary. But also, speeding through the words is not good either.
I think the missing piece here is that, when you are saying 1 hail mary prayer, then you can say that slowly and deliberately, because your focus is on the prayer itself.
But when you are saying the rosary as a whole, your focus should not be on the hail mary WORDS, but on the MEDITATION of the mysteries. Which means that, saying the Hail Mary a little faster (but not speeding through it) is a normal and typical response of the human mind, because anything done repetitively, usually (over time) gets done quicker. But saying multiple hail mary's faster than normal is not wrong, because your mind should not be focused on the words, but on the mental mysteries of the Faith.
That's why the Rosary is repetitious in the first place...to make mental prayer possible. (That's why the buddists chant "ohmm" over and over). If each prayer of the rosary changed a lot, then the mind would be preoccupied with the change in prayers, and meditating would be impossible.
Honestly, if you are concentrating on saying the hail mary's slowly and deliberately then I don't see how you're meditating very well. Practically, it's impossible to do both.
No offense.
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It takes me at least 20 minutes for 5 decades (and I would consider it average speed) , so I would think 15 decades would take about an hour.
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This is excessively SHORT to you? In my experience, this is about the avg.
An hour and a half is excessively long. Saying such "slowly and deliberately" is not necessary. But also, speeding through the words is not good either.
I think the missing piece here is that, when you are saying 1 hail mary prayer, then you can say that slowly and deliberately, because your focus is on the prayer itself.
But when you are saying the rosary as a whole, your focus should not be on the hail mary WORDS, but on the MEDITATION of the mysteries. Which means that, saying the Hail Mary a little faster (but not speeding through it) is a normal and typical response of the human mind, because anything done repetitively, usually (over time) gets done quicker. But saying multiple hail mary's faster than normal is not wrong, because your mind should not be focused on the words, but on the mental mysteries of the Faith.
That's why the Rosary is repetitious in the first place...to make mental prayer possible. (That's why the buddists chant "ohmm" over and over). If each prayer of the rosary changed a lot, then the mind would be preoccupied with the change in prayers, and meditating would be impossible.
Honestly, if you are concentrating on saying the hail mary's slowly and deliberately then I don't see how you're meditating very well. Practically, it's impossible to do both.
No offense.
I still disagree but I do see the points you and Soubirous are making. Remember I used to do them the fast way and could get them done in about 50-55 minutes or so but I was also blowing through the prayers like the micro machine guy and there's no reverence in that and it shows a hurried mind that just wants to get things done. Now I do agree with you and Soubirous that a good disposition is necessary and I'm not saying everyone has to clock in at exactly an hour and a half each time either with prayers said at the exact same length, etc.
As far as the bolded it's actually the opposite. Saying it slowly and deliberately is the reason one can mental prayer The Rosary. Going through the prayers too quickly gives no pause or reverence for what is actually being said during the Hail Mary and there is minimal, if any, mental prayer involved in the fast method. Meditating on the mysteries is done when each mystery is announced and before the next set of prayers (Our Father, Hail Mary, etc.) are started and that accounts for the longer length as well as one could meditate on each mystery for up to several minutes if doing mental prayer. So in doing it like that one is doing mental prayer with the Hail Mary and The Mysteries. Yes it takes a little longer but you are getting more mental prayer as a result.
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I still disagree but I do see the points you and Soubirous are making. Remember I used to do them the fast way and could get them done in about 50-55 minutes or so but I was also blowing through the prayers like the micro machine guy and there's no reverence in that and it shows a hurried mind that just wants to get things done. Now I do agree with you and Soubirous that a good disposition is necessary and I'm not saying everyone has to clock in at exactly an hour and a half each time either with prayers said at the exact same length, etc.
As far as the bolded it's actually the opposite. Saying it slowly and deliberately is the reason one can mental prayer The Rosary. Going through the prayers too quickly gives no pause or reverence for what is actually being said during the Hail Mary and there is minimal, if any, mental prayer involved in the fast method. Meditating on the mysteries is done when each mystery is announced and before the next set of prayers (Our Father, Hail Mary, etc.) are started and that accounts for the longer length as well as one could meditate on each mystery for up to several minutes if doing mental prayer. So in doing it like that one is doing mental prayer with the Hail Mary and The Mysteries. Yes it takes a little longer but you are getting more mental prayer as a result.
I will probably drop the Divine Office from my prayers. I have noticed that most of my prayers are rushed, the Rosary only takes me 7-11 minutes.... perhaps if I do less I can do more if that makes sense? My personalty also doesn't help as I like to 'get things done' so it's hard for me to slow down.
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Prayer life is an all-day thing. It doesn't start and stop depending on whether or not you're holding a rosary or a Divine Office book.
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I still disagree but I do see the points you and Soubirous are making. Remember I used to do them the fast way and could get them done in about 50-55 minutes or so but I was also blowing through the prayers like the micro machine guy and there's no reverence in that and it shows a hurried mind that just wants to get things done. Now I do agree with you and Soubirous that a good disposition is necessary and I'm not saying everyone has to clock in at exactly an hour and a half each time either with prayers said at the exact same length, etc.
As far as the bolded it's actually the opposite. Saying it slowly and deliberately is the reason one can mental prayer The Rosary. Going through the prayers too quickly gives no pause or reverence for what is actually being said during the Hail Mary and there is minimal, if any, mental prayer involved in the fast method. Meditating on the mysteries is done when each mystery is announced and before the next set of prayers (Our Father, Hail Mary, etc.) are started and that accounts for the longer length as well as one could meditate on each mystery for up to several minutes if doing mental prayer. So in doing it like that one is doing mental prayer with the Hail Mary and The Mysteries. Yes it takes a little longer but you are getting more mental prayer as a result.
It depends on the person. We each need to find our perfect fit with God. We are all unique. If a person with ADHD (I don't like these terms because I think it just results from natural personality differences) went super slow, they would never finish the rosary because there would be too much space for getting distracted. We know when we are not doing what we should and then we adapt. This is why there are so many options for prayer.
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Going through the prayers too quickly gives no pause or reverence for what is actually being said during the Hail Mary
It is impossible to concentrate on what is being said in the Hail Mary prayer, while simultaneously meditating on Christ's Resurrection, as an example. So what you're describing is a meditation on the Hail Mary, but it's not typical meditation on the MYSTERIES of the Rosary.
The common understanding of "meditating on the Rosary" is not to meditate on the Hail Mary, but to fix your mind on the mysteries...not the words of the Hail Mary.
and there is minimal, if any, mental prayer involved in the fast method.
You can say the Hail Mary at "normal conversation speed" and this is not irreverent.
Meditating on the mysteries is done when each mystery is announced and before the next set of prayers (Our Father, Hail Mary, etc.) are started and that accounts for the longer length
No, this is not meditation. If you're including a "pause" before each mystery, to meditate, then
1) I understand why the rosary takes so long.
2) This pause isn't required, but it's also not wrong. It's a private devotional decision. Any rosary that is said "in church" never has this pause because it's not the normal way.
3) Meditating BEFORE the decade of that mystery is said, is not the *normal* way to meditate.
4) The normal way, is to *NOT* concentrate on the 10 hail mary's of each decade, but to 100% focus on the mystery itself. For all 10 prayers.
as well as one could meditate on each mystery for up to several minutes if doing mental prayer. So in doing it like that one is doing mental prayer with the Hail Mary and The Mysteries. Yes it takes a little longer but you are getting more mental prayer as a result.
You're going overboard here. Again, there's nothing wrong with it, but as long as you understand it's not the Church/saint approved way. The mental prayer is supposed to happen WHILE you're saying the Hail Mary. Doing both is too much, and too OCD, in my opinion.
Maybe it's fine for a private (you alone) devotion. I hope you're not pushing this "method" on your family or anyone else. It's just excessive.
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It is impossible to concentrate on what is being said in the Hail Mary prayer, while simultaneously meditating on Christ's Resurrection, as an example.
Naw man. It's doable. One can combine it all together. For instance let's say we're meditating on the first mystery. The Annunciation. You can say 'Hail Mary', then a brief meditation about this Angelic Salutation that took part during this mystery, 'full of Grace,' then a brief meditation about how this salutation was brought about by St. Gabriel the Archangel. 'The Lord is with thee' then a brief mediation of how she is sinless and The Lord is with her and how she is about to give her fiat where The Lord will be literally with her in her womb. 'Blessed art thou amongst women' and a brief mediation on how this mystery couldn't have occurred to anyone else, etc. I think you get the idea. You can do this with every mystery of The Rosary.
So what you're describing is a meditation on the Hail Mary, but it's not typical meditation on the MYSTERIES of the Rosary.
It's both fam.
The common understanding of "meditating on the Rosary" is not to meditate on the Hail Mary, but to fix your mind on the mysteries...not the words of the Hail Mary.
Fair enough.
You can say the Hail Mary at "normal conversation speed" and this is not irreverent.
I agree. I never said otherwise. Again, I've done this before of varying speeds. Normal conversational speed would have you finishing about 1 hour to 1 hour 10 minutes or so. Some people are doing 45 minutes! That's micro machine guy speed. I should know I used to blow through the prayers and do them as fast as I could and I'm a fast talker and the fastest I could do it was 50 minutes.
No, this is not meditation. If you're including a "pause" before each mystery, to meditate, then
1) I understand why the rosary takes so long.
2) This pause isn't required, but it's also not wrong. It's a private devotional decision. Any rosary that is said "in church" never has this pause because it's not the normal way.
3) Meditating BEFORE the decade of that mystery is said, is not the *normal* way to meditate.
4) The normal way, is to *NOT* concentrate on the 10 hail mary's of each decade, but to 100% focus on the mystery itself. For all 10 prayers.
Fair enough although your first line is contradictory. You say it's not mediation then you imply that it is.
You're going overboard here. Again, there's nothing wrong with it, but as long as you understand it's not the Church/saint approved way. The mental prayer is supposed to happen WHILE you're saying the Hail Mary. Doing both is too much, and too OCD, in my opinion.
I disagree. There's never "too much" time to spend with the Blessed Virgin Mary in Her beautiful Rosary. I will stand firmly on this especially on this day of The Most Holy Rosary.
Maybe it's fine for a private (you alone) devotion. I hope you're not pushing this "method" on your family or anyone else. It's just excessive.
It is fine. I don't "push" the method but I will share that this is how I do it if anyone asks (so far no one has.) But again, I don't think spending more time with The Blessed Virgin Mary is "excessive."
My response in bold.
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I think I may be doing too much for a layperson.
Between morning/evening prayers, 3x rosary, daily spiritual reading, a few other small prayers and the Divine Office I am starting to feel very wearied. I think the Divine Office might be the biggest thing for me the cut out (not the first cut i've made), though I have only been saying it for over a year now, at first I was very fervent in my prayer life but was the years have gone by I have become much more lukewarm to the point that my prayers feel like a chore that I 'have to do' (and I do make sure I do them). I am also noticeably more distracted in prayer than when I started, even meditating on the mysteries of the rosary feel impossible, I can only think upon the same events so many times before it became dull and without new insights, and also between meditating and saying the Hail Marys it is difficult to focus on both.
I just feel so tired.
I feel your pain! I know exactly what you are speaking about.
I've prayed the Divine Office for 30 years. There have been times when it became so burdensome to me that I had to put it down and stop praying it for a while, in order to give myself a break. At those times, I found I was hungry for variety in my spiritual life. I wanted to do more study of the Faith, and do more spiritual reading. When that need arose, I looked to it. Ultimately, however, the Divine Office always called me back; and I always went back. I always go back to it, because the original reasons for praying it remain. Indeed, they strengthen themselves, as things get worse and worse and worse in the world. The power of the Divine Office over the Heart and Will of God will never weaken, no matter how much I weaken, no matter how much my flesh revolts against its yoke.
Consider that both the Rosary and the Divine Office are vocal prayer. They do not nourish the soul the same way mental prayer does. I have been told by my confessor that too much vocal prayer will always lead to spiritual fatigue.
Clearly, by your post, you are suffering from some kind of fatigue. Also, from some of your other recent posts, I discern that your life is changing in some way, from the inside out. It seems you are changing in your interior, beginning from the inside to contemplate another kind of life - namely marriage. This is all very good.
It seems to me that you should listen to your alarm bells, and to your current state of depletion. Take a break from the Breviary, just to give your mind and spirit some refreshment.
I will give you some advice now about the Rosary, which has enriched it for me, and has saved me from fatigue where it is concerned. I had to admit long ago that I am incapable of meditating on the Mysteries of the Rosary. I simply cannot, and that's final. Like you say, the mind wanders, and the mind also feels exhausted having to go over the same lines of thought day in and day out.
Long time ago, I began to combine spiritual reading or listening to spiritual books/conferences with my Rosary. I read a little, and while thinking about what I read, I pray some beads. I go back and forth. It's very nourishing. I'm getting the spiritual reading and the Rosary in together. The combination does wonders for both.
On days when I am strapped for time, I will omit this practice and just say the Rosary by rote. I do not feel guilty about this at all. My intention in fidelity to the Rosary is to love and honor our Lady and obey Her requests. I would much rather pray 15 Decades rotely, than not get the 15 Decades in because I was unable to meditate them properly.
If you are praying the Rosary and the Divine Office, and are combining spiritual reading and meditation/mental prayer with the Rosary, by all means you are doing enough. I would cut out all other vocal prayer. Have a general intention in your mind for all that you do, and leave it at that.
As far as praying the Office after marriage, or if you have a demanding career, all I can say is that the career never impeded me, but marriage and children certainly would have. I imagine that one's prayer life must change somewhat after marriage, especially because you would want to cultivate a spirit of prayer and a system of communal prayer in the home. Yes, you do not forego spiritual reading and mental prayer in solitude - even if you just grab what you can when you can - but I think that a family praying together means a lot more than 15 minutes each day to check off 5 Decades. It means Catholic culture and civilization pervading the entire system of familial intercourse, which demands involvement that would make the whole Divine Office every day very difficult.
Priests and those under an obligation to pray the Divine Office - by Orders or by Monastic Rule - get graces to remain faithful to it. They also have the ability to organize their lives around it. Nevertheless, I'm sure that they also have to struggle to remain faithful to it. Our priests are crazy busy. Many have to teach in schools. They travel. They are put upon by excessive demands. And I'm sure they suffer spiritual fatigue from days and years saying the same Offices over and over and over. And yet they persevere. I'm sure over time their spirits sweeten and they find the burden very light, but it's impossible for me to imagine that they do not have to go through serious struggles when the first fervor wears off.
I do believe that anyone who asks for the grace to persevere in a spiritual work will get that grace, if God wills the work. Yet, how can it not be that the resolve will be tried, and often seriously? I will tell you that I now have all the time in the world to pray the Breviary every day. I am retired, and live alone. I make my own schedule. I have no demands on me that preclude it. And yet, my dear!!!!!! I have never found it so difficult as now to pray it! It often feels like a horrible burden that I just want to throw off - and I do throw it off! There are days when I throw it off, and am able to do no more that spit out 15 Decades by rote. Surely, it has to be the old man, the flesh, and the devil behind such repugnance in my case.
I tell you this because I want to make it clear to you that your flesh hates the Breviary; and the more you pray it, the more it hates it. Your flesh will never grow to like it, or to enjoy it, or to look forward to it. The devil hates the Breviary also, especially when the praise of God has pretty much gone out all over the world now. He will collude with your flesh to make it as miserable and unpleasant as possible. Believe me.
Is the Divine Office a Cross? Yes!
Remember your first fervor!!! Remember the reasons you picked up the banner a year ago. No matter what it is in the spiritual life, the first fervor will wear off, and a trial will replace it - a trial of perseverance when the pleasure recedes.
Thus I suggest to you this measure: Do your original reasons still hold? Certainly your life has not materially changed. It has only begun to change interiorly, by way of anticipation. If the reasons still hold, then take a break to refresh yourself, and decide whether or not you want to continue. If you do, I promise you that it will continue to feel like a burden going forward - because it is a burden. "Take My yoke upon you, for My yoke is easy and My burden light ... If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me."
You are contemplating marriage these days. Let your experience with the Divine Office be for you a prophet and a guide. Marriage will begin with a first fervor, and then you and your spouse will be tested like there's no tomorrow. There will be days in your commitment to her that are fulfilled by the merest and most rote adherence to your material obligations. Marriage and family life will be very fatiguing at times, and as the years role along, as children are born, as life claws and wears away your very nerves, you will be called upon more and more to endure and persevere without as much consolation and even, dare I say it, affective engagement. Yes, deep love will grow. Yes, your affections for wife and children will put down immovable roots. But your flesh and complacency will, perhaps, never again be unpricked by duty. This is the daily Cross.
Thus, as with any operational system that has to last until death, review your prayer life. Cut out what is superfluous. Combine what may be combined for better effect. Persevere in objectively good things that don't feel good any more, as long as boredom or fatigue are the only reasons for letting them go.
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The above was me. It timed out and I didn't check the box again.
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The above was me. It timed out and I didn't check the box again.
Thank you for that extended advice. Not the OP, but what you wrote helps a lot. For a while I prayed the 15 Decades and the Little Office daily, but I paused the Little Office since I felt I couldn't give it the attention it deserved. The Monastic Breviary has been sitting in the bookcase for months, still waiting for me. Maybe come winter, it will be the right season for turning inward from the daily noise. Listening quietly for what Our Lord wants me to do.
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No, this is not meditation. If you're including a "pause" before each mystery, to meditate, then
1) I understand why the rosary takes so long.
2) This pause isn't required, but it's also not wrong. It's a private devotional decision. Any rosary that is said "in church" never has this pause because it's not the normal way.
3) Meditating BEFORE the decade of that mystery is said, is not the *normal* way to meditate.
4) The normal way, is to *NOT* concentrate on the 10 hail mary's of each decade, but to 100% focus on the mystery itself. For all 10 prayers.
Fair enough although your first line is contradictory. You say it's not mediation then you imply that it is.
When you pause before each mystery, this is obviously meditation. But you are not meditating WHILE PRAYING the rosary, which is the normal way.
Some people are doing 45 minutes! That's micro machine guy speed. I should know I used to blow through the prayers and do them as fast as I could and I'm a fast talker and the fastest I could do it was 50 minutes.
Not necessarily. Because most people aren't including a *pause* before each mystery. If you simply say the rosary in a normal conversation speed, without pauses before each mystery, and you meditate WHILE praying, (instead of meditating on the actual words of the prayers) then you save a lot of time. Then 50 min or so is normal.
Again, i'm not saying your method is wrong, as it sounds like you are putting forth a lot of effort and you deeply care about Our Lady.
But...i'm just debating your assertion that 50 min is too fast. Typically, this is the norm. You are saying the rosary quite different from the norm. It's not good or bad, it's just different.
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Thank you for that extended advice. Not the OP, but what you wrote helps a lot. For a while I prayed the 15 Decades and the Little Office daily, but I paused the Little Office since I felt I couldn't give it the attention it deserved. The Monastic Breviary has been sitting in the bookcase for months, still waiting for me. Maybe come winter, it will be the right season for turning inward from the daily noise. Listening quietly for what Our Lord wants me to do.
Let's face it. Prayer is brutally hard these days, precisely because so few are doing it. Liturgical prayer is even more difficult. Before Vatican II there was a massive prayer army in the monasteries and convents causing grace to pour down upon the world like a steady rain. Prayer in families was made easier, and even its value was bolstered by the secret prayer engine that kept the world from imploding.
That engine is Dead. Cold. Silent.
If I pick up the Breviary, I am an Atlas with the entire world upon my shoulders. I am trying to move a mountain with a stale breath from an unclean mouth. I am trying to hold back the sea with a seive.
I find that there is no lonelier thing in the world, nothing more desolate and barren, than trying to pray the Divine Office without the monastic engine behind me. The Divine Office is the prayer of an incorporation - the Mystical Body. It is supposed to be prayed in community - both a material community and the mystical community of the membership of the Church.
Those who pray it now - virtually alone - are certainly subject to all manner of suffering. The best antidote I find, is uniting myself with the Liturgy in Heaven, and the unceasing praise of the Angels. Certainly they are a prayer engine that never goes cold.
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So true.
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When you pause before each mystery, this is obviously meditation. But you are not meditating WHILE PRAYING the rosary, which is the normal way.
Maybe I wasn't clear in my last post but I do both. The pause (usually 1 minute) AND while praying the decade of whichever mystery. This helps set the "tone" for the decade.
Not necessarily. Because most people aren't including a *pause* before each mystery. If you simply say the rosary in a normal conversation speed, without pauses before each mystery, and you meditate WHILE praying, (instead of meditating on the actual words of the prayers) then you save a lot of time. Then 50 min or so is normal.
When I was going for the world speed record when doing these I didn't do the pause before each mystery at the time. I wanted to be done as fast as possible with these at the time. When I realized (was shown) my error and irreverence I started doing "normal conversational speeds" but still did not do the brief meditation before beginning the next set of mysteries like I do now and a steady pace was about 1 hour to 1 hour and 10 minutes. It wasn't until later that I did the brief mediation before the mystery so I could focus on it better and then doing it more passively during the decades while also being more reverent with The Hail Mary prayer.
Again, i'm not saying your method is wrong, as it sounds like you are putting forth a lot of effort and you deeply care about Our Lady.
Thank you.
But...i'm just debating your assertion that 50 min is too fast. Typically, this is the norm. You are saying the rosary quite different from the norm. It's not good or bad, it's just different.
I still think 45-50 minutes is too fast and I won't change that stance.
More responses in bold.
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Let's face it. Prayer is brutally hard these days, precisely because so few are doing it. Liturgical prayer is even more difficult. Before Vatican II there was a massive prayer army in the monasteries and convents causing grace to pour down upon the world like a steady rain. Prayer in families was made easier, and even its value was bolstered by the secret prayer engine that kept the world from imploding.
That engine is Dead. Cold. Silent.
If I pick up the Breviary, I am an Atlas with the entire world upon my shoulders. I am trying to move a mountain with a stale breath from an unclean mouth. I am trying to hold back the sea with a seive.
I find that there is no lonelier thing in the world, nothing more desolate and barren, than trying to pray the Divine Office without the monastic engine behind me. The Divine Office is the prayer of an incorporation - the Mystical Body. It is supposed to be prayed in community - both a material community and the mystical community of the membership of the Church.
Those who pray it now - virtually alone - are certainly subject to all manner of suffering. The best antidote I find, is uniting myself with the Liturgy in Heaven, and the unceasing praise of the Angels. Certainly they are a prayer engine that never goes cold.
No offense, but you're being way too dramatic here. There are still monasteries and convents in the world; you're not alone. The monastic engine still exists.
Also, let's not forget, that the Divine Office, however holy and pleasing to God it is, is not the greatest prayer. That would be the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which if compared to the Divine Office, makes the latter as of little importance. As St Padre Pio said, "It is easier for the earth to exist without the sun than without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!"
So as long as the Holy Sacrifice is continually offered around the world, then THIS is the true ENGINE of the Faith. The Divine Office is simply an extension, an add-on, to daily mass, around which the entire Liturgical Calendar moves.
So please re-calibrate your spiritual compass towards the Mass, and unite your prayers with it, and you will not feel alone. For the Holy Sacrifice is the Divine Engine which runs the world. And it will be offered, continually, until the end of time, as Scripture infallibly tells us.
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No offense, but you're being way too dramatic here. There are still monasteries and convents in the world; you're not alone. The monastic engine still exists.
Also, let's not forget, that the Divine Office, however holy and pleasing to God it is, is not the greatest prayer. That would be the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which if compared to the Divine Office, makes the latter as of little importance. As St Padre Pio said, "It is easier for the earth to exist without the sun than without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!"
So as long as the Holy Sacrifice is continually offered around the world, then THIS is the true ENGINE of the Faith. The Divine Office is simply an extension, an add-on, to daily mass, around which the entire Liturgical Calendar moves.
So please re-calibrate your spiritual compass towards the Mass, and unite your prayers with it, and you will not feel alone. For the Holy Sacrifice is the Divine Engine which runs the world. And it will be offered, continually, until the end of time, as Scripture infallibly tells us.
My goodness! What a strawman you are! I say nothing about the Holy Mass, and you come in with a storyboard around it, complete with a diagnosis of my various spiritual and emotional illnesses. Now that's drama! You've outdone me, for sure. Applause!
OP certainly knows what he's talking about, and I know what he's talking about, and I'll bet he knows what I'm talking about. That will suffice.
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My goodness! What a strawman you are!
It wasn't a strawman, it was a correction. The monastic life isn't dead and it's not the engine of grace, the Mass is. And you're not the Atlas to hold up the world, the Mass is.
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It wasn't a strawman, it was a correction. The monastic life isn't dead and it's not the engine of grace, the Mass is. And you're not the Atlas to hold up the world, the Mass is.
But isn't the montastic life much smaller than it was at one time? And aren't priests more obligated to pray the Divine Office than to say Mass?
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But isn't the montastic life much smaller than it was at one time?
Of course. What part of catholicism ISN'T SMALLER since V2? That's beside the point, because I was responding to the allegation that the monastic life is *dead* and all hope is lost. It's not dead, and hope is not lost. Saying something is *dead* is vastly different than saying it's "smaller".
And aren't priests more obligated to pray the Divine Office than to say Mass?
The Divine Office obligation is a personal obligation, for priests' sanctity. The Mass is for the Church as a whole, and the whole world.
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Of course. What part of catholicism ISN'T SMALLER since V2? That's beside the point, because I was responding to the allegation that the monastic life is *dead* and all hope is lost. It's not dead, and hope is not lost. Saying something is *dead* is vastly different than saying it's "smaller".
The Divine Office obligation is a personal obligation, for priests' sanctity. The Mass is for the Church as a whole, and the whole world.
I think the above is where communication breaks down. A woman who states something is "dead" is exagerrating her feeling on that. It feels "dead" It feels "hopeless" It doesn't actually mean it is factually "dead" or "hopeless". Women and men communicate differently. We should take into consideration, who is posting, before we make assumptions.
Thank you for the clarification on the second part.
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A woman who states something is "dead" is exagerrating her feeling on that.
:jester: Some women would, some wouldn't. It's impossible to know. All I can do is read what you wrote.