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Author Topic: Red light vs yellow light  (Read 1354 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Red light vs yellow light
« on: July 22, 2018, 03:52:42 PM »
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  • Question regarding each persons opinion here - where do you all stand regarding red lighting vs yellow lighting the SSPX and why? Trying to figure this out for myself. If one has an orthodox SSPX priest, who rallies against the new direction and stands up to superiors, stay away? Looking for any and all opinions.  


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Red light vs yellow light
    « Reply #1 on: July 22, 2018, 04:08:59 PM »
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  • It is a matter of prudence.

    But a couple points:

    1. You must support the Resistance as best you can, as they are the hope for the future. If you want your Latin Mass, you're going to have to compromise lower and lower to get it, as long as you depend on the SSPX. The sooner you start arranging for an alternative, the better. In other words, go ahead and yellow-light the SSPX, but don't green-light them!
    Green light means "all is well". Even if you choose to attend the SSPX in 2018 for pragmatic reasons, don't forget about the deep problems that aren't going to go away.

    2. You speak of this ideal, awesome SSPX priest and I don't doubt your sincerity, or even the fact that he's that awesome. But he's part of the SSPX, subject to the SSPX government, which is solidly going one direction (down, down, down). Your priest can only buck the trend for so long, and then he's going to have to either tow the party line and compromise, or leave. Countless priests from the Novus Ordo dealt with this. Talk to any of them. They wanted to be Traditional, faithful to God, but also stay on good terms with Rome for as long as they could. But eventually each one of them had to hop off the fence, and choose once-and-for-all: good or evil, truth or compromise, pleasing God or pleasing man.

    3. The SSPX as an organization is sinking and failing, even if you choose to attend their Masses. Beware the new orientation and ideas about Vatican II, the conciliar church, and the Pope. Some priests won't even criticize the pope anymore, not even within charitable, Catholic bounds.

    You must realize that the SSPX ship is sinking. They are moving closer to the Modernist, conciliar church, and closer to Vatican II, with every passing year. Is that what you signed up for from your local Trad lifeboat/chapel? I certainly did not. I want some resistance to Vatican II, and some fighting of Modernism the mother of all heresies.

    Even if you choose to avail yourself of their sacraments, you need to have a game plan for what happens after your local chapel becomes another Indult parish (or literally merges with the local Indult -- hey, it could happen -- and in fact, it probably would happen.

    When the neo-SSPX is finally regularized with Rome, how could Rome allow two of their own members to fight each other? That is to say, why would they have an Indult Mass in San Antonio (approved by Rome/ the local diocese) and an SSPX chapel down the road (approved by Rome/the local diocese)? It wouldn't happen. You can't have that kind of competition, that kind of redundancy, within the same organization. One of them would have to close, and all the parishioners would be directed to the surviving location.

    The conciliar church does this all the time for practical reasons. There are only so many priests, the need is great everywhere, we all have to be reasonable, share resources, etc. Parishes close all the time once the population of the parish drops below a certain threshold. Parishes end up merging.

    And then there's the brainwashing/frog-boiling aspect. It whitens my hair to talk to people at my old SSPX chapel, which I've only been absent from for 3 years. The people say things I never thought I'd hear them say. They say attending or starting an Independent chapel is somehow disobedient, bad, schismatic -- even though that's precisely what the SSPX has been doing since the 70's. Even today, the local SSPX chapel is no more "regularized" than the little Resistance chapel close to me. The SSPX might be bigger and have more money and people, but that doesn't give them any free jurisdiction or Roman approval. They are still just a lifeboat. Hopping in a lifeboat to save your faith is NOT disobedient -- in fact it's the very essence of obedience. We must obey God rather than men.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Red light vs yellow light
    « Reply #2 on: July 22, 2018, 04:19:34 PM »
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  • You have to ask yourself: What is the Traditional Movement all about, at least as I understand it?

    Well, I'll give you a popular, objective answer, based on my experience in the Trad movement over the past 40+ years.

    1. Leaving the conciliar church/structure/buildings/personnel behind, regardless of having an alternative 
    We must preserve our Faith, and the Novus Ordo is toxic, as proven by the Crisis in the Church over the past 50 years: the dropoff in priestly and religious vocations, Catholics who no longer act like Catholics, no more weekly Mass attendance among the Faithful, etc.

    2. Seeking out the True Mass, true (validly ordained, properly trained) priests and true sacraments.
    Today this means attending Mass at a chapel not approved by Rome. The Conciliar Church doesn't train their priests well anymore; they no longer teach St. Thomas Aquinas, traditional moral theology, and they have introduced countless errors from the Modern World into the priestly curriculum (Freud for one). And there is a very good case to be made that the New Rite of Ordination might be invalid in many cases.

    3. Without seeking permission from any man, however high his station. We do not need permission to stay Catholic, or to keep our Faith.


    The SSPX is falling flat on all 3 of these points.

    1. They are working with the conciliar church more and more.
    2. They allow Novus Ordo priests to function in their chapels without requiring any conditional ordination, or remedial training in Catholic Tradition, beforehand.
    3. They now teach the Faithful that we NEED modernist, apostate Rome's approval to attend a Latin Mass, or we are disobedient, schismatic, etc.

    To cease to attack error is to cease to love the truth! The SSPX, under the guise of being nicey-nice or positive, has stopped calling out Modernist Rome for all of their errors. They no longer distinguish between Eternal Rome and Conciliar Rome, like Archbishop Lefebvre did.

    Now they talk point-blank about how each of their seminarians is from ____ diocese, they regularly mix with bishops and priests of the conciliar church, and they can't wait to get "back in" the official Church structure. The problem is, they are fools. It is not Tradition that left the Church! The apostates are right there in Rome, occupying the highest places. THEY are in schism with the Catholic Church.

    Matthew
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red light vs yellow light
    « Reply #3 on: July 22, 2018, 04:24:20 PM »
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  • Even the terms here a vague.  What does Red Light actually mean?  If you treat them practically like, say, Orthodox schismatics, then that would practically be schismatic.  And then why would you red-light the entire SSPX?  If you happen to have a priest that talks mostly about spiritual matters and barely speaks of the Church crisis (I've known many like that) or else is less liberal vis-a-vis his position on the crisis, then there's little to no harm to assisting at Mass there.  Also, is the alternative to become a Home Aloner?  What's worse, running into some liberalism at an SSPX center or being deprived of the Mass and Sacraments?  Most of us needs these to keep alive spiritually.  Until there' s a problem with validity or they embrace actual heresy (a high bar), I don't think anything more than a Yellow would ever be warranted.  There were lots of liberals and modernists floating around even before Vatican II, but people still went to Mass and received the Sacraments from them.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Red light vs yellow light
    « Reply #4 on: July 22, 2018, 04:34:50 PM »
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  • It's complicated too. Does once-a-month Mass at a Resistance-affiliated location count as being a home aloner?

    And what about our collective duty to preserve the Faith and prepare for the future, which basically involves setting up new local Trad groups and chapels?

    What if everyone in the Resistance 1.0 (a.k.a. the Traditional Movement, which started in the early 70's) went the "conservative" route, rather than the Trad route?
    We all know what Trad means (leave your Novus Ordo, find a Trad priest, I don't need permission to keep the Faith) but what is "conservative"?
    Conservative is finding the best priest in your area, church shopping for a conservative parish, playing "Where's Waldo" during communion, trying to receive communion from the priest rather than one of the old ladies handing out communion, and finding a priest that will let you kneel for communion.

    Many people went this route. MANY people. Many times the number that went the Trad route. But who was right? We all bless the Trad pioneers today, but back then they were called "imprudent", "home aloners", "extremists" and so forth. Think of all the friends they left behind. The disruption to their normal Sunday life. The gaping hole in their Catholic social life. The giving up of Mass and the Sacraments completely for a time. They left the Novus Ordo cold-turkey, usually without an alternative lined up.

    If it weren't for these Trad pioneers and heroes, who cast off into the deep and helped set up Trad chapels, organized themselves with other like-minded Catholics, sought out retired and other Trad priests, dug deep into their pockets and set up chapels, bought pews, monstrances, chalices from 2nd-hand stores, etc. there wouldn't be a large Trad movement today.

    All of this applies to the Trad Movement 2.0, the Resistance which began in 2012. A very similar thing happening in the SSPX that happened in the mainstream Church in the early 70's. All proportion guarded, of course. Some things are different. But the slide into liberalism and acceptance of Vatican II is exactly the same.

    But in both situations (the early Trad movement, and the Resistance today) we see many of the same controversies, the same hard choices, the same heroes, the same villains, the same names flung at the heroes, and so forth.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red light vs yellow light
    « Reply #5 on: July 22, 2018, 04:51:38 PM »
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  • It's complicated too. Does once-a-month Mass at a Resistance-affiliated location count as being a home aloner?

    Yes, it is ... with a lot of prudential judgments required.  In not too long, one would have to treat them the same way that one would treat a Motu group.  Is the priest valid?  I'm not sure if they still have the Cor Unum out there where you can look up who ordained them?  Even if he's valid, were there other dubious priests floating around who may have consecrated some of the Hosts in the tabernacle?  Is the priest liberal?  Does he say scandalous things that could harm the faith of your children?  Sometimes it's worse to hear these things from someone saying he's Traditional than for some guy officiating at a clown mass.  Could you do a quick hit-and-run just to receive the Sacraments?  Is that the only place you can receive Sacraments within a 300-mile radius?

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    Re: Red light vs yellow light
    « Reply #6 on: July 22, 2018, 05:45:50 PM »
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  • Question regarding each persons opinion here - where do you all stand regarding red lighting vs yellow lighting the SSPX and why? Trying to figure this out for myself. If one has an orthodox SSPX priest, who rallies against the new direction and stands up to superiors, stay away? Looking for any and all opinions.  
    The only SSPX priest who matches the above description at the present time (i.e., rails against the new direction AND stands up to superiors) is Fr. Xavier Beauvais of France, and there are reasons he is allowed to get away with it.

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    Re: Red light vs yellow light
    « Reply #7 on: July 22, 2018, 06:12:04 PM »
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  • Yes, it is ... with a lot of prudential judgments required.  In not too long, one would have to treat them the same way that one would treat a Motu group.  Is the priest valid?  I'm not sure if they still have the Cor Unum out there where you can look up who ordained them?  Even if he's valid, were there other dubious priests floating around who may have consecrated some of the Hosts in the tabernacle?  Is the priest liberal?  Does he say scandalous things that could harm the faith of your children?  Sometimes it's worse to hear these things from someone saying he's Traditional than for some guy officiating at a clown mass.  Could you do a quick hit-and-run just to receive the Sacraments?  Is that the only place you can receive Sacraments within a 300-mile radius?
    Interesting point: I am not a red lighter, but I would leave my chapel tomorrow if they assigned a doubtfully ordained priest to it.  But even that, I guess, would still be a yellow light, because the condition at my chapel would not necessarily apply to other chapels.  Not sure how prevalent this problem is in the SSPX throughout the world, but I know several doubtfully ordained priests (both SSPX members and associates of the SSPX) are or have been floating around the USA (e.g., Monsignor Byrne, Fr. McManus, etc.).  If one of those showed up at my chapel, I might just as well seek out a priest ordained by a Thuc bishop (i.e., questionable).


    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: Red light vs yellow light
    « Reply #8 on: July 23, 2018, 04:15:06 AM »
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  • The only SSPX priest who matches the above description at the present time (i.e., rails against the new direction AND stands up to superiors) is Fr. Xavier Beauvais of France, and there are reasons he is allowed to get away with it.
    The reason he can get away with it is because one of the is the most courageous priest we have had the privilege to know. Here he is 2013 telling a riot police officer that should lower his gaze in in shame after arresting a religious brother from Saint Nicolas. At 1:25 in the following video:

     

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    Re: Red light vs yellow light
    « Reply #9 on: July 23, 2018, 06:32:57 AM »
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  • And what about those of us with children?  The priest may be great...but what if he's replaced by a liberal one?  Wait until he's gone and then return?  What sort of message does that send?  Small children don't understand that; they'd see it as "Daddy and Mom don't like so and so...but they liked this one"  Ok; so to them it appears alright that if you don't like a particular priest, you don't have to go to Mass. 

    Or Confession.  There's no way to control the spiritual advice given in Confession.  What if it's liberal in some way?  Your child wouldn't know!  My mother went to Confession to a visiting priest recently, and he started rationalizing FOR HER that this wasn't a sin...this wasn't mortal...this was ok...etc.  A child wouldn't know what to do with that.

    And then there's the peer influence.  A lot of SSPXer's I know that are raising children the same ages my children are...just don't care as much as we do about TV, music, dress, etc. 

    Maybe we're taking the easy road out by Red-lighting, but I don't think so. 

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    Re: Red light vs yellow light
    « Reply #10 on: July 23, 2018, 06:49:10 AM »
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  • And what about those of us with children?  The priest may be great...but what if he's replaced by a liberal one?  Wait until he's gone and then return?  What sort of message does that send?  Small children don't understand that; they'd see it as "Daddy and Mom don't like so and so...but they liked this one"  Ok; so to them it appears alright that if you don't like a particular priest, you don't have to go to Mass.

    Or Confession.  There's no way to control the spiritual advice given in Confession.  What if it's liberal in some way?  Your child wouldn't know!  My mother went to Confession to a visiting priest recently, and he started rationalizing FOR HER that this wasn't a sin...this wasn't mortal...this was ok...etc.  A child wouldn't know what to do with that.

    And then there's the peer influence.  A lot of SSPXer's I know that are raising children the same ages my children are...just don't care as much as we do about TV, music, dress, etc.

    Maybe we're taking the easy road out by Red-lighting, but I don't think so.
    Definitely valid concerns, but is a more nuanced solution possible than giving up the public exercise of the virtue of religion (eg., Wait for visiting priests; call other priests to ask their advice;?bisit other chapels instead; reserves confessions for Resistance priests, etc)?


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    Re: Red light vs yellow light
    « Reply #11 on: July 23, 2018, 07:16:37 AM »
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  • And what about those of us with children?  The priest may be great...but what if he's replaced by a liberal one?  Wait until he's gone and then return?  What sort of message does that send?  Small children don't understand that; they'd see it as "Daddy and Mom don't like so and so...but they liked this one"  Ok; so to them it appears alright that if you don't like a particular priest, you don't have to go to Mass.
    What if he isn't replaced? or if the next priest is even more conservative than the one replaced? Then what? Would that mean you've been going to a liberal priest the whole time? Honestly, this is a bit schizo.

    Parents are the first source of their children's education - the parents need to teach their children to understand so that they see it as it is and don't see it as  "Daddy and Mom don't like so and so...but they liked this one" etc,.



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    Or Confession.  There's no way to control the spiritual advice given in Confession.  What if it's liberal in some way?  Your child wouldn't know!  My mother went to Confession to a visiting priest recently, and he started rationalizing FOR HER that this wasn't a sin...this wasn't mortal...this was ok...etc.  A child wouldn't know what to do with that.

    Again, it is the parents' job to teach and council their children, the parents must tell their children "what to do with that" so they will know what liberal advice is and what isn't, also what they should do in the confessional if/when they get liberal advice. Don't forget, if the child is going to confession at all, then the child has reached the "age of reason". It is the parents who do their children a terrible disservice by not giving basic instructions on liberalism, etc. because they assume children could not understand basic instructions regarding this situation. 



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    And then there's the peer influence.  A lot of SSPXer's I know that are raising children the same ages my children are...just don't care as much as we do about TV, music, dress, etc.
    Unless you're living off grid, this goes for +99% of the population, it is not unique to SSPXers.