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Author Topic: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history  (Read 1686 times)

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Offline Emile

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Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
« on: June 06, 2023, 09:36:30 PM »
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    • Everyone is welcome to chime in, but I would like to hear especially from Priests (we know you're reading ;) ) why they would be in any way hesitant to reveal their ordination history.
    No Catholic is his own, moreso a Priest, so I genuinely do not understand.
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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #1 on: June 06, 2023, 11:00:47 PM »
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    • I recently had a correspondence with a priest on this subject, and he told me that according to moral theology, positive doubt about validity is not the only reason which would justify a conditional ordination.  

    That rather surprised me, and he did not elaborate, but left to my imagination, is the implication that pastoral concerns can justify a conditional ordination, without risking sacrilege?
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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #2 on: June 07, 2023, 05:32:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Emile on June 06, 2023, 09:36:30 PM
    Everyone is welcome to chime in, but I would like to hear especially from Priests (we know you're reading ;) ) why they would be in any way hesitant to reveal their ordination history.
    No Catholic is his own, moreso a Priest, so I genuinely do not understand.
    In the old days, conditional ordinations were NEVER made public.  They were kept extremely quiet and the record of them having been done was locked in a chancery file that few could access. 

    The reason for the secretiveness being the amount of scruples the laity would have about receiving possibly invalid sacraments.  
     
    The theologians say that, at least with Masses that were perhaps invalid, the graces would have been supplied from the “treasury of the Church”.

    In these times when we lack proper authorities with a canonical mission and lack true seminaries in which to train priests (a seminary must be canonically erected… what are passing today as trad seminaries are nothing more than houses of study), most of us feel conditional ordinations should be made public knowledge.  Recent videos of botched ordinations and consecrations prove why we need to be more open with this information.  

    I am a priest. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #3 on: June 07, 2023, 06:18:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on June 06, 2023, 11:00:47 PM
    I recently had a correspondence with a priest on this subject, and he told me that according to moral theology, positive doubt about validity is not the only reason which would justify a conditional ordination. 

    That rather surprised me, and he did not elaborate, but left to my imagination, is the implication that pastoral concerns can justify a conditional ordination, without risking sacrilege?

    Where was this priest trained?  That's 100% incorrect.  To perform a conditional ordination without positive doubt entails sacrilege.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #4 on: June 07, 2023, 06:22:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on June 07, 2023, 05:32:46 AM
    In the old days, conditional ordinations were NEVER made public.  They were kept extremely quiet and the record of them having been done was locked in a chancery file that few could access.

    The reason for the secretiveness being the amount of scruples the laity would have about receiving possibly invalid sacraments. 
     
    The theologians say that, at least with Masses that were perhaps invalid, the graces would have been supplied from the “treasury of the Church”.

    In these times when we lack proper authorities with a canonical mission and lack true seminaries in which to train priests (a seminary must be canonically erected… what are passing today as trad seminaries are nothing more than houses of study), most of us feel conditional ordinations should be made public knowledge.  Recent videos of botched ordinations and consecrations prove why we need to be more open with this information. 

    I am a priest.

    Thank you, Father.  I can see that in the old days, to a point, when there was canonical normalcy in the Church, revealing a conditional ordination would serve little purpose other than to cause worry among the faithful.  But if I had been confessing my sins to a doubtful priest, even then I should think that I would have a right to know, so that I could make a good (possibly general) confession.  What of the Mass stipends that I had requested?  Even today in the Conciliar Church, if it's found out that various Masses had been doubtful, even by their standards, there would be some kind of provision made to have the Mass stipends that were offered redone if possible.

    Back in the day, the Diocese was expected to ensure the validity of priests.  So if the faithful went into a random Catholic church, if there was a priest in the confessional, you could be confident to just walk in and begin confessing your sins.  But today, with all the various groups and bishops out there, and with the doubt about Conciliar Orders, the assurances about validity are often on an individual basis.
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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #5 on: June 07, 2023, 06:24:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 07, 2023, 06:18:10 AM
    Where was this priest trained?  That's 100% incorrect.  To perform a conditional ordination without positive doubt entails sacrilege.

    SSPX
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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #6 on: June 07, 2023, 06:28:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on June 07, 2023, 06:24:30 AM
    SSPX

    His exact words were, “There’s multiple reasons according to moral theology which allows giving sacraments conditionally.”
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #7 on: June 07, 2023, 10:05:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on June 07, 2023, 05:32:46 AM
    In the old days, conditional ordinations were NEVER made public.  They were kept extremely quiet and the record of them having been done was locked in a chancery file that few could access.

    The reason for the secretiveness being the amount of scruples the laity would have about receiving possibly invalid sacraments. 
     
    The theologians say that, at least with Masses that were perhaps invalid, the graces would have been supplied from the “treasury of the Church”.

    In these times when we lack proper authorities with a canonical mission and lack true seminaries in which to train priests (a seminary must be canonically erected… what are passing today as trad seminaries are nothing more than houses of study), most of us feel conditional ordinations should be made public knowledge.  Recent videos of botched ordinations and consecrations prove why we need to be more open with this information. 

    I am a priest.
    Thank you, Father. 
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    I hold it true, whate'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost
    Than never to have loved at all.
    (In Memoriam A. H. H., 27.13-17 Alfred, Lord Tennyson)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #8 on: June 07, 2023, 10:24:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on June 07, 2023, 06:28:47 AM
    His exact words were, “There’s multiple reasons according to moral theology which allows giving sacraments conditionally.”

    I'd love to see sources for this, as I myself have seen nothing other than the requirement of positive doubt, absent which it would be considered sacrilegious to conditionally ordain someone.  But then the SSPX has never been averse to making up theological principles as they go along.

    I know one priest who was ordained by JP2 in Rome and who nevertheless sought and received conditional ordination from Bishop Williamson (about 3 decades ago now).  He said that he had no doubts but wanted to ally the concerns of the faithful.

    Of course, I always found that humorous, as if this got out, it would effectively be casting doubt on ordinations conferred directly by Saint John Paul II Wojtyla the Great.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #9 on: June 07, 2023, 11:49:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Emile on June 06, 2023, 09:36:30 PM
    Everyone is welcome to chime in, but I would like to hear especially from Priests (we know you're reading ;) ) why they would be in any way hesitant to reveal their ordination history.
    No Catholic is his own, moreso a Priest, so I genuinely do not understand.
    .

    You are absolutely correct. People have a right to know who ordained a priest. Any priest who refuses to divulge this must be considered suspicious and be avoided.
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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #10 on: June 07, 2023, 11:57:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 07, 2023, 10:24:33 AM
    I'd love to see sources for this, as I myself have seen nothing other than the requirement of positive doubt, absent which it would be considered sacrilegious to conditionally ordain someone.  But then the SSPX has never been averse to making up theological principles as they go along.

    I know one priest who was ordained by JP2 in Rome and who nevertheless sought and received conditional ordination from Bishop Williamson (about 3 decades ago now).  He said that he had no doubts but wanted to ally the concerns of the faithful.

    Of course, I always found that humorous, as if this got out, it would effectively be casting doubt on ordinations conferred directly by Saint John Paul II Wojtyla the Great.
    Dear Ladislaus,
    Was that priest Fr. Hesse?
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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #11 on: June 07, 2023, 12:22:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on June 07, 2023, 11:57:28 AM
    Dear Ladislaus,
    Was that priest Fr. Hesse?
    Not Lad but

    Quote
    Canon Hesse was related to the Hapsburg royal bloodline. He was born in Vienna in 1952, ordained by Cardinal Marella in St. Peter's Basilica on November 21, 1981

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/father-gregory-hesse-rip/msg685317/#msg685317

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #12 on: June 07, 2023, 01:16:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on June 07, 2023, 11:57:28 AM
    Dear Ladislaus,
    Was that priest Fr. Hesse?

    No.  I don't think he'd mind, since I don't believe it was a secret, as he told the faithful about it.  Father Carlos Casavantes.  He was independent and aligned with SSPX for quite some time, but then ended up going with FSSP.  Ordained by JP2 himself, he received conditional ordination from Bishop Williamson when he began working with SSPX.  When I met him, he was at Queen of the Holy Rosary chapel in Vienna, OH ... and I went up there as an SSPX seminarian to pay him a visit.
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #13 on: June 07, 2023, 03:25:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on June 07, 2023, 05:32:46 AM
    In the old days, conditional ordinations were NEVER made public.  They were kept extremely quiet and the record of them having been done was locked in a chancery file that few could access.

    The reason for the secretiveness being the amount of scruples the laity would have about receiving possibly invalid sacraments. 
     
    The theologians say that, at least with Masses that were perhaps invalid, the graces would have been supplied from the “treasury of the Church”.

    In these times when we lack proper authorities with a canonical mission and lack true seminaries in which to train priests (a seminary must be canonically erected… what are passing today as trad seminaries are nothing more than houses of study), most of us feel conditional ordinations should be made public knowledge.  Recent videos of botched ordinations and consecrations prove why we need to be more open with this information. 

    I am a priest.
    Thank you for sharing!
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    Re: Reasons for concealing ordination / conditional ordination history
    « Reply #14 on: June 07, 2023, 08:30:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 07, 2023, 01:16:14 PM
    No.  I don't think he'd mind, since I don't believe it was a secret, as he told the faithful about it.  Father Carlos Casavantes.  He was independent and aligned with SSPX for quite some time, but then ended up going with FSSP.  Ordained by JP2 himself, he received conditional ordination from Bishop Williamson when he began working with SSPX.  When I met him, he was at Queen of the Holy Rosary chapel in Vienna, OH ... and I went up there as an SSPX seminarian to pay him a visit.
    Thank you Ladislaus.  He was instrumental in establishing a mission in Texas with Bishop Corrada.
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