Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on February 18, 2014, 03:20:58 PM
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Do you believe Adam and Eve existed and were our first parents and that they sinned and because of this all of us are cursed with original sin?
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Of course.
That is what the Bible says happened. Who are we to question it?
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Yes.
-TheKnightVigilant
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I started this thread. I posted it in the anonymous forum because I thought some people would want to answer the question anonymously.
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Even if we think we know of a good reason to question it, we are not allowed to question this particular teaching, per Humani Generis of Pius XII. Promulgated to the Entire Church on a matter of the Faith, ergo infallible.
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Yes. I do believe this. I also believe in evolution, if that is a subtext to the question in the original post.
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Yes, it is what is taught in the catechism class.
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Yes. Suffering & death came into the world as a result of original sin yes? How then could evolution which requires death & suffering have possibly occurred before these things came into the world? This violates the law of non-contradiction which says that one cannot say of something that it is & that it is not in the same respect & at the same time. Either man was created exactly as is written in Genesis & by his sin brought death into the world, or else he was the result of evolution occurring over the course of aeons wherein suffering & death were constant well before he ever existed which denies the inerrancy of Holy Scripture. One or the other, it can't be both.
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Absolutely. I believe with a child-like faith everything the Church teaches. The teaching of the Original Sin is a fundamental basis for Our Faith.
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Cuthbert wrote:
Yes. Suffering & death came into the world as a result of original sin yes? How then could evolution which requires death & suffering have possibly occurred before these things came into the world? This violates the law of non-contradiction which says that one cannot say of something that it is & that it is not in the same respect & at the same time. Either man was created exactly as is written in Genesis & by his sin brought death into the world, or else he was the result of evolution occurring over the course of aeons wherein suffering & death were constant well before he ever existed which denies the inerrancy of Holy Scripture. One or the other, it can't be both.
Pius XII disagreed with you. You ought to look up 'Special Transformism' which he apparently thought was a reasonable enough idea that he allowed Catholics to study it.
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Cuthbert wrote:
Yes. Suffering & death came into the world as a result of original sin yes? How then could evolution which requires death & suffering have possibly occurred before these things came into the world? This violates the law of non-contradiction which says that one cannot say of something that it is & that it is not in the same respect & at the same time. Either man was created exactly as is written in Genesis & by his sin brought death into the world, or else he was the result of evolution occurring over the course of aeons wherein suffering & death were constant well before he ever existed which denies the inerrancy of Holy Scripture. One or the other, it can't be both.
Pius XII disagreed with you. You ought to look up 'Special Transformism' which he apparently thought was a reasonable enough idea that he allowed Catholics to study it.
St. Thomas Aquinas also disagrees with him. From the Summa: "In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others, would, in that state, have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. But this is quite unreasonable. For the nature of animals was not changed by man's sin, as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others, would then have lived on herbs, as the lion and falcon."
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Nice cite, anonymous.
Isn't it telling that the only free, interesting, participative discussions of evolution that occur here are anonymous?
When it's anonymous, it's reasonable and thoughtful and people have all sorts of interesting things to say.
When it's in public, the thought police come out and excommunicate.
Nice.
Wonder what that means.
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(https://thejesuitpost.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Daleks-Excommunicate.jpg)
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Do you believe Adam and Eve existed and were our first parents and that they sinned and because of this all of us are cursed with original sin?
Yes.
Besides, it is actually dogma, right?
That's where the Catholic Church gets the concept of Original Sin.
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Yes. I do believe this. I also believe in evolution, if that is a subtext to the question in the original post.
Not taking an acrimonious view here but help me to understand your view by giving a short synopsis of how you arrived at this conclusion?
Most proponents of evolution are doing it to show the world that God does not exist.
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Perhaps it would help to make a distinction between evolution in other creatures which is Scriptural:
Wisdom 19:18
"For the things of the land were turned into things of the water: and the things before swam in the water passed upon the land."
....and evolution in man which is not. The fact man is not subject to evolution distinguishes him from other creatures, hence the words of Our Lord.
Luke 12:7
"Yea, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: you are of more value than many sparrows."
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Yes. I do believe this. I also believe in evolution, if that is a subtext to the question in the original post.
Not taking an acrimonious view here but help me to understand your view by giving a short synopsis of how you arrived at this conclusion?
Most proponents of evolution are doing it to show the world that God does not exist.
I certainly perceived no acrimony in your question.
Basically, I agree with Pope Pius XII. The question of whether or not evolution has occurred seems to me to be scientifically settled. We are required to believe that we come from two parents who first had immortal souls. I don't see that we can believe that the days of creation lasted for eons. If that isn't enough I will try to say more.
I of course believe that God exists.
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As I have discussed with my children in science classes, I do not believe in Darwinian evolution and I believe the earth and physical universe are relatively young. On the other hand, I am not so opposed to some sort of evolutionary process should such a process actually be demonstrated to be factual rather than the scientists simply declaring it a TRUTH that cannot be questioned despite the complete lack of physical evidence that they had said (when the theory was first being widely accepted) should be abundant as more fossils were found.
Furthermore, an old earth would not shake my faith though, again, scientists have established a TRUTH that cannot be question despite the fact that every dating method they use makes assumptions that necessarily establish a very old earth. For crying out loud, rocks formed in 1983 in the Mount Saint Helens volcano were dated to be more than 300 thousand years old! If that alone does not shake one's trust in their dating methods, then an old earth is simply one of many doctrines in a religion--it is not science!
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If Adam and Eve had ancestors who evolved, did those ancestors have immortal souls?
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Yes. I do believe this. I also believe in evolution, if that is a subtext to the question in the original post.
Not taking an acrimonious view here but help me to understand your view by giving a short synopsis of how you arrived at this conclusion?
Most proponents of evolution are doing it to show the world that God does not exist.
I certainly perceived no acrimony in your question.
Basically, I agree with Pope Pius XII. The question of whether or not evolution has occurred seems to me to be scientifically settled. We are required to believe that we come from two parents who first had immortal souls. I don't see that we can believe that the days of creation lasted for eons. If that isn't enough I will try to say more.
I of course believe that God exists.
Do say more, please. Especially about the scientifically settled part.
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I would like to ask you to research the matter more Sigismund, many of these scientists are shameless malicious liars. There is a long history of deception, piltdown man, nebraska man & so on. If evolution were so glaringly self-evident why would they resort to such disgusting frauds? It is also a good demonstration of the character of these infidels, in a court of law one is not obligated to believe a single word from someone who has been caught lying just once. These infidels have been caught in a lie dozens of times. Kent Hovind, though sadly a prot does a good job of refuting their lies which often fly in the face of common sense. The Kolbe Centre has articles which show forth its falsity as well. The Death of Evolution by Wallace Johnson (an Australian Catholic) is a good book to start with, it's not very long but every page is filled with solid evidence which destroys the pernicious doctrine.
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Perhaps it would help to make a distinction between evolution in other creatures which is Scriptural:
Wisdom 19:18
"For the things of the land were turned into things of the water: and the things before swam in the water passed upon the land."
....and evolution in man which is not. The fact man is not subject to evolution distinguishes him from other creatures, hence the words of Our Lord.
Luke 12:7
"Yea, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: you are of more value than many sparrows."
The first quote, Wisdom 19:18, has no relevance to the question of evolution, but refers to the effects of God's punishments on the Eqyptians through the plagues.
The previous verse tells us [17] For while the elements are changed in themselves
the note in the DR Bible explains that The meaning is, that whatever changes God wrought in the elements by miracles in favour of his people, they still kept their harmony by obeying his will.
This is totally unrelated the creation.
Neither has the second quote any relevance here. Jesus is admonoshing his disciples, [4] Be not afraid of them who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. [5] But I will shew you whom you shall fear: fear ye him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear him.
and He goes on to say they have more value than sparrows.
My own belief is that evolution refers to both animals and to man and is a false philosophy.