Author Topic: Question about the Assumption (Read 1615 times)

Änσnymσus · « **on:** February 20, 2019, 02:57:06 PM »

Did the Blessed Virgin Mary actually die before she was assumed? If the punishment for sin is death, and if Mary was without original sin and never sinned in her lifetime, was she punished with death like the rest of mankind and then assumed into heaven? Or because of her sinlessness was she assumed while still actually living? I've been wondering this while pondering the Glorius mysteries of the rosary. Is there a good book or essay somewhere that explains this? Thanks.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2019, 06:48:59 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous on February 20, 2019, 02:57:06 PM

Did the Blessed Virgin Mary actually die before she was assumed? If the punishment for sin is death, and if Mary was without original sin and never sinned in her lifetime, was she punished with death like the rest of mankind and then assumed into heaven? Or because of her sinlessness was she assumed while still actually living? I've been wondering this while pondering the Glorius mysteries of the rosary. Is there a good book or essay somewhere that explains this? Thanks.

Pretty sure she never died.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2019, 07:05:22 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous on February 20, 2019, 02:57:06 PM

Did the Blessed Virgin Mary actually die before she was assumed? If the punishment for sin is death, and if Mary was without original sin and never sinned in her lifetime, was she punished with death like the rest of mankind and then assumed into heaven? Or because of her sinlessness was she assumed while still actually living? I've been wondering this while pondering the Glorius mysteries of the rosary. Is there a good book or essay somewhere that explains this? Thanks.

According to Ven. Mary of Agreda, Our Lord appeared to his mother and gave her the choice to pass from this life to the next without experiencing death, or to die a normal death. She replied that by saying just as she had followed Him during her life, so too she wished to follow him by experiencing death. She died, and three days later her soul was reunited to her body and she was assumed into heaven.

Judith 15 Ten · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2019, 07:09:54 PM »

She was either assumed into Heaven, while conscious, without dying or by dormition where she fell asleep, but she didn't die because she was incapable of death due to being Immaculately Conceived and choosing to remain sinless throughout her life, and she was taken to Heaven in her sleep. Either way, there was an Assumption (or "dormition" is the Eastern Catholic tradition) of her into Heaven.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2019, 08:58:08 PM »

Book: The Mystical City of God will answer your questions. This book, 4 volumes is very good reading and very important. Cure de Ars, St. john vianney kept this on his desk, and read and referred to it, along with his bible. Mary Agreda and St. John Vianney are both inncorruptables.

Student of Qi · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2019, 09:16:55 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous on February 20, 2019, 08:58:08 PM

Book: The Mystical City of God will answer your questions. This book, 4 volumes is very good reading and very important. Cure de Ars, St. john vianney kept this on his desk, and read and referred to it, along with his bible. Mary Agreda and St. John Vianney are both inncorruptables.

This book is not dogma, and while many of us - myself included - would like to believe she did not die, her death is the official position of the Traditionalist Roman Catholic Church as it is even meantioned in the Divine Office.
To reject this oral tradition would be heterodoxy at best, heresy at worst, as the Council of Trent itself obliges us to accept oral traditions. Europe is also filled with churches that has paintings of the Dormition, etc. A famous one being in Germany, though its name eludes me.

Student of Qi · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2019, 09:23:20 PM »

I would like to add to the above a story that a certain bishop has told a few times.

There are supposed to be old Italian newspapers that reported the Dormition was supposed to be part if the Dogma of the Assumption, but Mary appeared to a child and directed him to tell the Pope not to add it or he would die. The boy received an audiance with the Pontiff and relayed the message, it scared the Pope and he removed the Dormition from the Definition.

I would like to see a copy of one of these newspapers, or hear from an old person who remembers the incident, as there are reportedly a couple left.

Stanley N · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2019, 11:40:18 PM »

The definition of the Assumption does not say whether or not Our Lady died (meaning separation of body and soul). Catholic traditions exist for saying she died, as well as for saying she did not.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2019, 12:19:54 AM »

Here's a good description... I think :furtive:

Icon of the Dormition by El Greco, 16th century (Cathedral of the Dormition, Ermoupolis).

The Dormition of the Mother of God (Greek: Κοίμησις Θεοτόκου, Koímēsis Theotokou often anglicized as Kimisis; Bulgarian: Успение на Пресвета Богородица, "Uspenie na Presveta Bogoroditsa", Russian: Успение Пресвятыя Богородицы, Uspenie Presvetia Bogoroditsi; Georgian: მიძინება ყოვლადწმიდისა ღვთისმშობელისა), Albanian: Fjetja e Shën Marisë, is a Great Feast of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches which commemorates the "falling asleep" or death of Mary the Theotokos ("Mother of God", literally translated as God-bearer), and her bodily resurrection before being taken up into heaven. It is celebrated on 15 August (28 August N.S. for those following the Julian Calendar) as the Feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God. The Armenian Apostolic Church celebrates the Dormition not on a fixed date, but on the Sunday nearest 15 August.

The death or Dormition of Mary is not recorded in the Christian canonical scriptures.
Hippolytus of Thebes, a 7th- or 8th-century author, claims in his partially preserved chronology to the New Testament that Mary lived for 11 years after the death of Jesus, dying in AD 41.^[1]
The term Dormition expresses the belief that the Virgin died without suffering, in a state of spiritual peace. This belief does not rest on any scriptural basis, but is affirmed by Orthodox Christian Holy Tradition. It is testified to in some old Apocryphal writings, but neither the Orthodox Church nor other Christians regard these as possessing scriptural authority.

Link

Dolores · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2019, 01:39:56 PM »

Quote from: Stanley N on February 20, 2019, 11:40:18 PM

The definition of the Assumption does not say whether or not Our Lady died (meaning separation of body and soul). Catholic traditions exist for saying she died, as well as for saying she did not.

This is the correct answer. Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (the apostolic constitution that defined the dogma of the Assumption), stated the following:

Quote

For which reason, after we have poured forth prayers of supplication again and again to God, and have invoked the light of the Spirit of Truth, for the glory of Almighty God who has lavished his special affection upon the Virgin Mary, for the honor of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages and the Victor over sin and death, for the increase of the glory of that same august Mother, and for the joy and exultation of the entire Church; by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

The dogma does not define whether or not she died, only that when her earthly life was completed, that she was assumed into Heaven.

Student of Qi · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2019, 10:34:46 AM »

Quote from: Stanley N on February 20, 2019, 11:40:18 PM

The definition of the Assumption does not say whether or not Our Lady died (meaning separation of body and soul). Catholic traditions exist for saying she died, as well as for saying she did not.

That may be so, but the Roman Church officially subscribes to the fact that she died. It is prayed in the Divine Office. A Dominican was telling me about it, that in the breviary is a section: "As we remember your holy death, Oh Blessed Virgin". The breviary goes hand in hand with the Liturgy, it is even considered an extension of it throughout the day, and the very word "liturgy" is a compounded Greek word meaning "Public Work". If the breviary and the Mass are the Official Prayers of the Roman Catholic Church, then that means the death of the Blessed Virgin is the position that the Latins subscribe to, even if it is not an official Dogma.

I think this is a case where the Lex Orandi Lex Credendi applies, because who actually even prayes the breviary if not a religious? If you do pray the breviary/Divine Office, and still think one could subscribe to the idea the Blessed Virgen didn't die, I think it is logical that you are not in conformity with the principal of the Lex Orandi.

Anyhow, this is just how the subject appears to me at a glance.
If anyone actually has a breviary, which I don't, maybe you can fact check my assertions that meantion of our Blessed Mother's death is in it.

Stanley N · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2019, 01:44:06 PM »

Quote from: Student of Qi on February 24, 2019, 10:34:46 AM

That may be so, but the Roman Church officially subscribes to the fact that she died. It is prayed in the Divine Office. A Dominican was telling me about it, that in the breviary is a section: "As we remember your holy death, Oh Blessed Virgin".
...
Anyhow, this is just how the subject appears to me at a glance.
If anyone actually has a breviary, which I don't, maybe you can fact check my assertions that meantion of our Blessed Mother's death is in it.

I didn't find an antiphon in the Roman breviary like what you describe. I might have missed it. The Dominican breviary is very likely different, and might have it. I did find two relevant lessons from Matins in the 1910 breviary.

Lesson 5 appears to affirm she died. It includes: "From her true life had flowed for all men, and how should she taste of death? But she yielded obedience to the law established by Him to Whom she had given birth, and, as a daughter of the old Adam, underwent the old sentence"

Lesson 6 appears to affirm she did not die. It includes: "how was death ever to feed upon her? how was the grave ever to eat her up? how was corruption to break into that body into which Life had been welcomed? For her there was a straight, smooth, and easy way to heaven."

In the 1960 breviary, lesson 5 is still there, but lesson 6 is replaced by an excerpt from Pius XII. Make of that what you will.

I think the more common opinion among theologians is that she died, but again, the definition of the Assumption seems to have been phrased to avoid answering this point.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #12 on:** February 25, 2019, 03:10:57 AM »

From the Poem of the Man-God, by Maria Valtorta, Volume 5, original publication:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
Page 938.
.
647. On the Passage, the Assumption and Royalty of the Blessed Virgin.
.
18th April 1948.
[Mary says:]
.
"Did I die? Yes, if you call the separation of the choice part of the spirit from the body.
No, if by death you understand the separation of the vivifying soul from the body, the corruption
of the flesh no longer vivified by the soul, and before that, the lugubrious sepulchre, and before
all these things, the pangs of death.

"How did I die, or better, how did I pass from the Earth to Heaven, first with My immortal part,
then with the perishable one? As if was fair for Her Who did not become acquainted with the stain
of sin."
.
.
Page 940.
.
5th January 1944.
[Jesus says:]
.
"No sepulchre swallowed the corpse of Mary, because there never was a corpse of Mary, according to
human sense, because Mary did not die as whoever lived dies.
.
"By divine decree, She was only separated from Her spirit, and Her most holy flesh once again joined
the spirit that had preceded it. By inverting the habitual laws, according to which an ecstasy ends
when the rapture ceases, that is, when the spirit returns to its normal state, it was Mary's body
that went to join the spirit, after a long rest on the funeral bed."
.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
Before attacking the Poem or Maria Valtorta, with links to old articles,
take a look at this webpage:
.
http://drbo.org/valtorta.htm

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2019, 03:21:11 AM »

Testing 1, 2, 3 ...

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2019, 06:31:35 PM »

I still highly recommend The Mystical City of God. Chapters are titled and can be found easily. Mary Agreda is an incorruptible. St. John Vianney promoted The City of God.

Author Topic: Question about the Assumption (Read 1615 times)

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