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Author Topic: Proper understanding of Usury?  (Read 9191 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2023, 11:13:13 PM »
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  • https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/usury-faq-or-money-on-the-pill/

    You may find this useful. Goes into depth of what usury is, what loans are and destroys all modernist/gradualism cope.
    This person makes a case that only full recourse (mutuum) loans are usury (and all mutuum loans are usury), and non recourse (societas) loans are not usury regardless of how moral/ethical they are.

    This distinction certainly sheds light on statements made by the Church and Aquinas, and actions the Church has done.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #16 on: August 09, 2023, 02:04:41 AM »
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  • When a Jєω provides you with a mortgage, not only does the Jєω secure his investment with the collateral of the home (and homes tend to appreciate) AND charge you thousands in "closing fees" and sometimes even make you pay for "mortgage insurance" (generally if you have < 20% equity in the home), but they ALSO make inordinate amounts of money in excess of the home's value.  If you take out a mortgage on a $250,000 home, you'd end up paying about $750,000 by the end of 30 years.  That is gravely sinful usury.  They should be making their salaries from the fees

    So a non-usurous home "loan" would entail a few hundred dollars worth of closing costs and fees, a monthly servicing fee (probably no more than $50 per month, since it's nearly all electronic and automated), and a certain amount of mortgage insurance (probably no more than $200, depending on your credit "risk"), along with principle payments.  If the home needed to be foreclosed upon, the home should be sold for market value, and the bank should have only as much stake in the property as would cover the amount of remaining principle, while the mortgagee would receive as much of the principal he paid into it, minus any fees/costs associated with the foreclosure itself.


    Retired loan servicing employee weighing in.  Thoughts:

    Financial institutions make money hand over fist on service fees, in fact, it's a major "cash cow" for a loan servicer.  It consists of a "spread" every month, for instance, if you have a loan on which you pay 5% interest, 4.75% gets passed through to the investor (e.g., FNMA), and the servicer retains 0.25% to pay the servicing employees and other expenses (data processing systems, etc.), as well as to generate profit.  $50/month is in the ballpark, in fact, I figured it up one time and on the average loan, it's about $37.50 per month.  So at least that portion of one's mortgage payment is by no means usury.

    Mortgage insurance (PMI) is assessed monthly, not as a lump sum.  It works out to between $30-$70 per month.  It's bundled into your monthly payment.  Word to the wise, try to pay at least 20% down.  PMI came into being to accommodate those who want to buy a home, but don't have the 20% down payment.

    Owning your own home free and clear is one of the best assets you can have.  True, on a $250K loan, over 30 years, you've paid about $750K.  Thanks to my father's shrewd investments over the years (we weren't rich folks by any stretch of the imagination), my son will never have a house payment if he remains in the home we live in now.  (My parents' house will come to me, also paid for, one reason I can live on a shoestring is because I have no house payment.)  I've told him time and again that NO 18-year-old owns their own home.  (It has to stay in my name for several reasons, but as a practical matter, it'll be his house.)  Many people are one paycheck away from being out on the street.


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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #17 on: August 09, 2023, 03:31:35 AM »
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  • Retired loan servicing employee weighing in.  Thoughts:

    Financial institutions make money hand over fist on service fees, in fact, it's a major "cash cow" for a loan servicer.  It consists of a "spread" every month, for instance, if you have a loan on which you pay 5% interest, 4.75% gets passed through to the investor (e.g., FNMA), and the servicer retains 0.25% to pay the servicing employees and other expenses (data processing systems, etc.), as well as to generate profit.  $50/month is in the ballpark, in fact, I figured it up one time and on the average loan, it's about $37.50 per month.  So at least that portion of one's mortgage payment is by no means usury.

    Mortgage insurance (PMI) is assessed monthly, not as a lump sum.  It works out to between $30-$70 per month.  It's bundled into your monthly payment.  Word to the wise, try to pay at least 20% down.  PMI came into being to accommodate those who want to buy a home, but don't have the 20% down payment.

    Owning your own home free and clear is one of the best assets you can have.  True, on a $250K loan, over 30 years, you've paid about $750K.  Thanks to my father's shrewd investments over the years (we weren't rich folks by any stretch of the imagination), my son will never have a house payment if he remains in the home we live in now.  (My parents' house will come to me, also paid for, one reason I can live on a shoestring is because I have no house payment.)  I've told him time and again that NO 18-year-old owns their own home.  (It has to stay in my name for several reasons, but as a practical matter, it'll be his house.)  Many people are one paycheck away from being out on the street.
    I am going to pull out some quotes from the above link (and also from other pages on the blog).
    Quote
     Is a home loan usury?

    A non recourse home loan is not usury, because the lender has recourse to the house and the house alone for recovery of principal and interest.  In practice most mortgages allow for a deficiency judgment against the borrower, though, and those mortgages are usurious.


    In short, once I understood the teaching it seemed extraordinarily commonsensical and fitting: it is unjust to charge “rent” for the use of money -qua- money, since money -qua- money has no productive use in itself; but it is not unjust to charge “rent” for the use of real co-owned assets.



    These notions in the air that either (1) medieval Church teaching on usury was hopelessly naive, (2) modern conditions are such that that teaching hardly ever applies in practice in the modern world, or (3) that if we accept Church teaching on usury we have to abandon private property or go down some other ideological rat hole, are simply wrong."


    Usury involves treating people (subjects) as things (objects), because it involves purchasing “Bob owes me principal and interest” as opposed to purchasing shares in that project there or that bundle of assets there, distinct from particular persons


    Furthermore, “Bob owes me principal and interest” is not a thing which actually exists. Charging rent for literally nothing, no thing, is intrinsically unjust.

    The principal is you buying the bank's share of the house over time. The interest is the rent you pay for the part of the house that the bank owns. Sure it might be unethical or immoral the way the current system works. But whether is it usurious will depend on if it is 'mutuum' (according to the blog guy).

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #18 on: August 09, 2023, 03:31:59 AM »
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  • I am going to pull out some quotes from the above link (and also from other pages on the blog).
    The principal is you buying the bank's share of the house over time. The interest is the rent you pay for the part of the house that the bank owns. Sure it might be unethical or immoral the way the current system works. But whether is it usurious will depend on if it is 'mutuum' (according to the blog guy).
    This post was me, I forgot to check the box.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #19 on: August 10, 2023, 09:34:17 PM »
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  • This post was me, I forgot to check the box.
    Quote
    If you can identify specific individuals who are personally liable under the agreement to return your principal and pay you profitable interest, the contract is usury. If you cannot identify any such individuals, the contract is not usury.
    Another quote from the same page 


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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #20 on: August 10, 2023, 10:57:40 PM »
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  • Another quote from the same page
    Quote
    ) Is it morally licit to charge interest on a full recourse loan just to cover inflation?
    No. The answer is implicit in Question 35 — once you’ve grasped the difference between mutuum and societas it becomes clear that the price of the ‘currency’ most likely will fluctuate all over the place relative to other things, whatever is used as currency. The mutuum might be in wheat or oranges or even computers or cars as opposed to dollars; but that doesn’t change the nature of the contract.
    So if it is an interest bearing mutuum it is usury, and the inflation rate (or price fluctuation between commodities or currencies generally) is irrelevant.
    In effect what the “just-to-cover-inflation” usurer is attempting to do is enslave the borrower (as opposed to purchasing claims against some actually existing property) as an inflation hedge. All property is subject to entropy, decay, devaluation, theft, political unrest, changes in market conditions or personal circuмstances, and other risks. It is fine generally speaking to make investments as a hedge against this, in an effort to preserve wealth; but it is not morally licit to make usurious loans as a hedge against this.
    [Some folks have found this approach to the answer confusing, so I answered it again from a slightly different perspective in Question 53]


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #21 on: August 10, 2023, 10:58:30 PM »
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  • Above post was me



    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #22 on: August 10, 2023, 11:11:32 PM »
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  • I am going to pull out some quotes from the above link (and also from other pages on the blog).
    The principal is you buying the bank's share of the house over time. The interest is the rent you pay for the part of the house that the bank owns. Sure it might be unethical or immoral the way the current system works. But whether is it usurious will depend on if it is 'mutuum' (according to the blog guy).
    That makes sense.  I'd never thought of it that way before.  If you weren't paying a mortgage, you'd just be paying rent, which would be as much or more than the mortgage payment, and at the end of the mortgage term, you have a house, whereas when you pay rent, at the end of 30 years you just have 360 cancelled checks.  And lenders, unless they hold the loans in-house, aren't making any money off the interest (aside from service fee as noted above), they pass that on to the investor (e.g., FNMA mortgage security holders).

    I can tell you that lenders do NOT want to foreclose, in actual practice, they will bend over backwards to do everything to accommodate a delinquent borrower.  Foreclosure can take a year or more, and when a lender ends up with a house, nobody wins (unless it would be someone who gets it for a song at a foreclosure sale).  They typically work with borrowers to bring them current, or to recast the loan into something that the borrower can pay.  They're not Simon Legrees rubbing their hands together and just lying in wait to snatch someone's house away from them.

    I've seen more loans than I can count, made to people who clearly couldn't afford the homes, nor make the payments, for various reasons including social equity and avoidance of even the appearance of discrimination.  Political correctness plays a huge factor in credit decisions.


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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #23 on: August 10, 2023, 11:37:56 PM »
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  • From the comment section on a related page

    Quote
    When banks behave morally, they securitize property; when they engage in the sin of usury, they securitize people.


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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #24 on: August 11, 2023, 12:41:16 AM »
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  • That makes sense.  I'd never thought of it that way before.  If you weren't paying a mortgage, you'd just be paying rent, which would be as much or more than the mortgage payment, and at the end of the mortgage term, you have a house, whereas when you pay rent, at the end of 30 years you just have 360 cancelled checks.  And lenders, unless they hold the loans in-house, aren't making any money off the interest (aside from service fee as noted above), they pass that on to the investor (e.g., FNMA mortgage security holders).

    I can tell you that lenders do NOT want to foreclose, in actual practice, they will bend over backwards to do everything to accommodate a delinquent borrower.  Foreclosure can take a year or more, and when a lender ends up with a house, nobody wins (unless it would be someone who gets it for a song at a foreclosure sale).  They typically work with borrowers to bring them current, or to recast the loan into something that the borrower can pay.  They're not Simon Legrees rubbing their hands together and just lying in wait to snatch someone's house away from them.

    I've seen more loans than I can count, made to people who clearly couldn't afford the homes, nor make the payments, for various reasons including social equity and avoidance of even the appearance of discrimination.  Political correctness plays a huge factor in credit decisions.
    In Australia having a mortgage is cheaper than renting. Renting prices are insane.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #25 on: August 11, 2023, 12:51:12 AM »
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  • In Australia having a mortgage is cheaper than renting. Renting prices are insane.
    I've had many a loan file plopped down on my desk, and all I had to do, was take a look at it, and say to myself "these people will be in default in a year".  Sadly, I was often right.

    My institution bent over backwards to accommodate people of every demographic, and they still ended up paying a $100K fine for alleged housing discrimination.

    I wasn't in the position to make any sort of decision.  By the time it got to me, the loan was already made, I just had to do the clean-up when the loan went bad.  You have no idea what kind of problems such loans make for servicers.


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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #26 on: August 11, 2023, 02:36:13 AM »
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #28 on: August 11, 2023, 06:14:34 AM »
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  • In Australia having a mortgage is cheaper than renting. Renting prices are insane.
    Quote
    For example one way to think about a non recourse “loan” (and you will see some folks discuss it under this kind of framing) is to think of it as a mutuum together with an additional contract. This “add on” contract removes the personal pledge for repayment and replaces it with a pledge to transfer ownership of specific property if the borrower stops making payments: thus we get a non recourse loan. It is from this second, add-on contract, which grants the lender an ownership interest in the collateral and cancels the borrower’s personal obligation to repay, that a just title to profit arises.

    However when the terminology is used that way – when the most essential property of a mutuum (Aquinas: “the borrower holds the money at his own risk and is bound to pay it all back”) is removed and replaced by a pledge of actually existing property which fully bounds and terminates the borrower’s obligation – it is editorially more clear to just recognize that what we have is an essentially different kind of contract. These kinds of contracts in fact have their own names: a census (See Question 31) or non recourse mortgage (see the full citation of “Usury and Contract for Rent” from Regimini Universalis), along with explicit approval by the Magisterium as non-usurious when non recourse.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Proper understanding of Usury?
    « Reply #29 on: August 11, 2023, 12:14:59 PM »
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  • So by this reasoning, does any loan that has recourse to the collateral, and only the collateral, cease to be usurious and is thus morally unproblematical?

    I have in mind here auto loans, as well as ad hoc loans made by pawn shops where collateral is held as security for the loan.  The worst that can happen, you don't pay back the loan, and you lose your collateral.