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Author Topic: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife  (Read 183757 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
« Reply #540 on: November 29, 2017, 09:36:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 29, 2017, 08:28:47 AM
    And yet my argument stands that the husband-wife relationship is not a simple unqualified superior-subject relationship but has the additional element of honor.  Very few superiors are required to honor their subjects.  This aspect of the marital relationship was never treated by the authors who advocated wife beating.  Consequently, those positions are invalidated ... since they never addressed this objection.
    I think that the marriage relationship is unique in being both one of superior-subject and one of mutual honour. There is no reason to assume that the authorities who wrote supporting corporal punishment were unaware of this merely because they did not explicitly state it.  
    There is no principle in logic that a position automatically becomes invalid simply because one raises an objection that was not addressed by the proponent.  The objection must be examined on its own merits.  Obviously you believe your objection to be unassailable, but I think otherwise.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #541 on: November 29, 2017, 09:37:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nooseph Polten on November 29, 2017, 08:47:08 AM
    ?? And this coming from the "I respect my wife as an independent-thinker" side??
    I'm sorry, but even you can't play both sides, Mr. White-Knight.

    That's obviously an ad hominem type of argument ... the subtlelty of which clearly escaped you.  I don't believe that it's always inappropriate for a woman to attend University, nor does attending University have anything to do with independent thinking.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #542 on: November 29, 2017, 09:40:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 29, 2017, 09:36:06 AM
    I think that the marriage relationship is unique in being both one of superior-subject and one of mutual honour. There is no reason to assume that the authorities who wrote supporting corporal punishment were unaware of this merely because they did not explicitly state it.  
    There is no principle in logic that a position automatically becomes invalid simply because one raises an objection that was not addressed by the proponent.  The objection must be examined on its own merits.  Obviously you believe your objection to be unassailable, but I think otherwise.

    That's only true if the objection itself is invalid.  Otherwise, these arguments are invalid in the sense that they do not refute my position.  I never said it's unassailable ... only that I have yet to see a convincing rebuttal of it; that doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

    Whether or not these authorities were "aware" of the honor aspect of the relationship, this aspect was not addressed in their treatment of the subject.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #543 on: November 29, 2017, 09:44:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 29, 2017, 09:35:05 AM
    Well, as you know, I dispute the logical flow ... as per my honor argument.

    So you then believe that this is unchanging Church teaching.  And that brings us back to my earlier point, that at the very least it may be a stumbling block to those outside the Church to be confronted by "Church teaching" that it's OK for husbands to lay violent hands on their wives.  While the notion of a husband's authority over his wife cannot be compromise, I think it extremely imprudent to continue arguing in favor of this principle being Church teaching.
    But for how many other topics on Cathinfo could we make the same argument?  We already mentioned that this could apply to outsiders' impression of the Flat Earth proponents.  What about the many posts that would be labeled as from the perspective of "nαzι sympathizers"?  Even the debates on various points of doctrine could appear to those outside the Church as an obsession over trivialities.  I think that carrying the stumbling block argument to its logical conclusion would involved shutting down this forum or least drastically changing it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #544 on: November 29, 2017, 10:00:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 29, 2017, 09:36:06 AM
    I think that the marriage relationship is unique in being both one of superior-subject and one of mutual honour. 

    Certainly it's unique when compared to a simple superior-subject relationship.  So, then, it's possible that arguments from superior-subject regarding the licitness of corporal punishment do not apply to this unique situation because there's something special about this relationship that would rule it out.  I argue that physical punishment is particularly (and inherently) degrading and therefore incompatible with honor.  That's why it's so repugnant for a child to strike his parent, a mortal sin, (vs. just talking back or disobeying in a light matter) ... because it's extremely degrading to the parent and therefore incompatible with the honor.  And, again, the only possible rebuttal to this is that there's something so different about honor to parents, compared to honor to wife, that makes it forbidden in the one case but permitted in the other.  But I have yet to see a valid distinction which would bear this out.  Consequently, if we err, we must err on the side of upholding honor ... especially since such corporal punishment is never required to be administered.  I would much rather withhold an even otherwise just corporal punishment than to risk violating the honor of my wife ... ESPECIALLY since I don't even consider the former to be effective.  Nor will I ever publicly advocate such a practice, much less promote it as "Church teaching", due to the scandal it could cause unnecessarily to those outside the Church (as per St. Augustine).  Not to mention that it encourages, condones, and enables in the minds of some their degrading and even abusive treatment of their wives.  Let's pick our battles.  How can we even win this battle if we haven't first established the superior-subject relationship ... which the modern world denies?  Let's start there and put this question aside completely.  There's no point to discussing it or promoting it.

    Your sole attempt to rebut the argument from honor was to focus on a difference in the Greek, but it's not proven that this difference in phraseology entails a distinction that would permit corporal punishment in the one case but not the other.  I read it as a merely linguistic difference in expression:  "to honor" vs. "to render the honor that's due"; this doesn't establish that the honor "due" to a wife is sufficiently less than that to a parent to justify corporal punishment.  One could just as easily say that we must render the honor that's due to parents.  It's just a choice of expression and turn of phrase.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #545 on: November 29, 2017, 10:01:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 31, 2017, 10:37:40 AM
    Frankly, I suspect that the vast majority of men who advocate striking their wives derive some sort of perverse sɛҳuąƖ pleasure from it ...
    I once read an article about the Christian Domestic Discipline movement that made a similar point.  This is a movement among Fundamentalist Protestants who understand Scripture as supporting the position that a husband may/should use corporal punishment on his wife.  Both men and women ascribe to this position and it is possible to find many female proponents saying that they are very happy to have a husband who spanks her.  The article claimed that both the men and women were motivated by sɛҳuąƖ pleasure.  
    Whether or not this is true,  we are living in a society in which a man cannot use corporal punishment on his wife unless she allows it. We can only speculate about her reasons.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #546 on: November 29, 2017, 10:03:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 29, 2017, 09:44:54 AM
    But for how many other topics on Cathinfo could we make the same argument?  We already mentioned that this could apply to outsiders' impression of the Flat Earth proponents.  What about the many posts that would be labeled as from the perspective of "nαzι sympathizers"?

    To quite a few, I imagine.  I agree that it applies to Flat Earth as well as to nαzι sympathizing and even, IMO, to h0Ɩ0cαųst "denial".  Even though I myself agree with the fact that the h0Ɩ0cαųst was largely fabricated for political gains, I would be very careful about every mentioning that in public ... especially in a way that it could be tied to Traditional Catholicism or to the Catholic Church.  Whether or not the h0Ɩ0cαųst happened as the common narrative holds it, it's not of direct import to the faith ... and it's not a battle I would choose to fight.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #547 on: November 29, 2017, 10:08:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 29, 2017, 10:01:35 AM
    I once read an article about the Christian Domestic Discipline movement that made a similar point.  This is a movement among Fundamentalist Protestants who understand Scripture as supporting the position that a husband may/should use corporal punishment on his wife.  Both men and women ascribe to this position and it is possible to find many female proponents saying that they are very happy to have a husband who spanks her.  The article claimed that both the men and women were motivated by sɛҳuąƖ pleasure.  
    Whether or not this is true,  we are living in a society in which a man cannot use corporal punishment on his wife unless she allows it. We can only speculate about her reasons.  

    I think that there certainly could be a crossover with modern "S&M" practices ... where both the pain and the aspect of dominance can dovetail with sɛҳuąƖ pleasure.  If I recall, some of these Protestants you mention have admitted as much.  Of course that would not always be the case, but I would not rule it out among many of those who advocate this.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #548 on: November 29, 2017, 10:14:21 AM »
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    • With regard to the honor argument, one could maintain that --

    HONOR + SUPERIORITY (husband->wife) = permitted

    vs.

    HONOR + SUBJECTION (child->parent) = forbidden

    that it's the composition of honor and subjection that makes it forbidden from child to parent.

    That would be my attempt at a rebuttal ... from your perspective.

    Yet I hold that honor alone by definition precludes degrading treatment.  
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #549 on: November 29, 2017, 10:36:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 29, 2017, 10:00:00 AM
    Certainly it's unique when compared to a simple superior-subject relationship.  So, then, it's possible that arguments from superior-subject regarding the licitness of corporal punishment do not apply to this unique situation because there's something special about this relationship that would rule it out.  I argue that physical punishment is particularly (and inherently) degrading and therefore incompatible with honor.  
    It may be true that physical punishment is felt to be particularly degrading in our culture, but it was not seen this way for most of  the history of Western civilization.  One can see how drastic the shift in attitude has been by looking at penitential practices.  For most of Christian history, self-flagellation and other forms of corporeal penance were seen as normal and even meritorious.  They are now viewed with suspicion and considered problematic.  

    Quote from: Ladislaus on November 29, 2017, 10:00:00 AM
    That's why it's so repugnant for a child to strike his parent, a mortal sin, (vs. just talking back or disobeying in a light matter) ... because it's extremely degrading to the parent and therefore incompatible with the honor.  And, again, the only possible rebuttal to this is that there's something so different about honor to parents, compared to honor to wife, that makes it forbidden in the one case but permitted in the other.  But I have yet to see a valid distinction which would bear this out. 
    The honour due to parents occurs within a superior-subject relationship in which the parents are the superior.  It is always wrong for the subject to strike the superior.  It is not possible to measure how much of the wrongness of a child striking a parent comes from it being a superior-subject relationship and how much of it is comes from being a violation of honour.  We cannot separate out the element of honour to see what effect it might have in isolation.

    The honour due to a wife is honour due to a subject which makes it vastly different from the honour due to a superior.  It is certainly enough of a difference to account for a difference in the licitness of striking.

    In Scripture, there is more emphasis on marriage being a superior-subject relationship than on the husband owing honour to his wife.  There are around half a dozen passages concerning the former, while I can think of only one verse concerning the latter.  It is not surprising that the superior-subject relationship is the aspect of marriage that dominates our understanding of it.

    Quote from: Ladislaus on November 29, 2017, 10:00:00 AM
    Let's pick our battles.  How can we even win this battle if we haven't first established the superior-subject relationship ... which the modern world denies?  Let's start there and put this question aside completely.  There's no point to discussing it or promoting it.
    I too would much rather establish the superior-subject relationship.  It is a very important and generally misunderstood idea.  I agree that it would be far more edifying to discuss than corporal punishment.

    At any rate, I am planning to take a break from forums for Advent, so I won't be discussing anything for a while.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #550 on: November 29, 2017, 10:43:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 29, 2017, 10:36:27 AM
    It may be true that physical punishment is felt to be particularly degrading in our culture, ...

    No, it's inherently degrading ... which is why it's an egregious mortal sin for a child to strike a parent.  "Self-flagellation", your example, is not the case of one person administering it to another by force.  When one person administers it to another by force, it's an assertion of dominance and therefore by definition degrading to the other person.  [see the definition of the word "de-grade" ... it means to lower someone's status or rank]

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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #551 on: November 29, 2017, 10:50:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 29, 2017, 10:03:34 AM
    To quite a few, I imagine.  I agree that it applies to Flat Earth as well as to nαzι sympathizing and even, IMO, to h0Ɩ0cαųst "denial".  Even though I myself agree with the fact that the h0Ɩ0cαųst was largely fabricated for political gains, I would be very careful about every mentioning that in public ... especially in a way that it could be tied to Traditional Catholicism or to the Catholic Church.  Whether or not the h0Ɩ0cαųst happened as the common narrative holds it, it's not of direct import to the faith ... and it's not a battle I would choose to fight.
    This is very much the way that I see the h0Ɩ0cαųst too.
    I think that many members of CI treat the forum as if it were not "in public".  Because we, for the most part, only see posts from other trads, it feels like we are among trads.  It is natural to feel like we can make known our real opinions here.  
    But it is, in reality, public.  I wonder how many non-trads look at what is posted here.  I suspect that we must make a bad impression on them.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #552 on: November 29, 2017, 10:54:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 29, 2017, 10:36:27 AM
    The honour due to a wife is honour due to a subject which makes it vastly different from the honour due to a superior.  It is certainly enough of a difference to account for a difference in the licitness of striking.

    And this is what I laid out above as a possible rebuttal from your side.  I don't believe that they're sufficiently different because honor inherently and by definition precludes degrading someone.  We've gone through this before.  If a simple subordinate, say a soldier, were to strike his superior, his commanding officer, yes, that's wrong ... but it's not egregious and heinous in the same way that striking a parent would be ... and that's due to the element of honor.  It's the HONOR part of it which makes it an abomination to strike a parent.  I consider it a violation of my wife's honor not only to strike her, but even to speak derisively or disrespectfully to her.  While it's fine to be firm and assertive, it's a violation of her honor for me to be derisive or disrespectful.  But then perhaps I have a different concept of honor than you.  And, at the end of the day, isn't this the difference between us?  Perhaps I have a loftier notion of honor than you do?  Similarly, while I could theoretically impose certain penalties on my wife for misbehavior (e.g. taking away her credit cards for frivolous overspending -- and even that I would only do respectfully, because I deem it necessary, and without deriding her), I consider striking her to be over the top degrading treatment that violates her honor ... even if I do it without anger and without emotion.  There's just something about my applying physical violence to another person that is inherently degrading.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #553 on: November 29, 2017, 10:56:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 29, 2017, 10:50:38 AM
    This is very much the way that I see the h0Ɩ0cαųst too.
    I think that many members of CI treat the forum as if it were not "in public".  Because we, for the most part, only see posts from other trads, it feels like we are among trads.  It is natural to feel like we can make known our real opinions here.  
    But it is, in reality, public.  I wonder how many non-trads look at what is posted here.  I suspect that we must make a bad impression on them.

    I suspect that you're quite right.  And I myself have been guilty of this at times ... when I go on the attack.  Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #554 on: November 29, 2017, 10:59:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 29, 2017, 10:43:44 AM
    No, it's inherently degrading ... which is why it's an egregious mortal sin for a child to strike a parent.  "Self-flagellation", your example, is not the case of one person administering it to another by force.  When one person administers it to another by force, it's an assertion of dominance and therefore by definition degrading to the other person.  [see the definition of the word "de-grade" ... it means to lower someone's status or rank]
    How is an assertion of dominance wrong when the person actually is the superior?  It seems that your reasoning would lead to us saying that it is wrong for parents to use corporal punishment on their children.

    One of the questions in the examination of conscience in my Missal is whether I have "threatened or struck others not under [my] charge."  What assumptions underlie this question?
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