Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 31 32 [33] 34 35 ... 41

Author Topic: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife  (Read 182582 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Jaynek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4170
  • Reputation: +2318/-1232
  • Gender: Female
Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
« Reply #480 on: November 25, 2017, 02:52:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Ironically enough, the etymology of the word "cretin" is derived from a word meaning Christian.  It was used as an expression of pity for those suffering a physical and mental deformity.

    Quote from: Anonymous on November 25, 2017, 02:33:40 PM
    The term 'cretin' was used specifically to describe wife-beaters. It wasn't meant in a general way. One definition of 'cretin' is to be stupid, which I believe is an appropriate description for wife-beaters and wife-spankers. You are distracting away from the subject by stating this, which you often do. And you aren't even looking at the argument against wife-beaters or wife-spankers (as if spanking is more acceptable!).
    I myself have made several arguments against using corporal punishment throughout this thread.  My position is that this was a traditional belief and practice of the Church, but is not prudent now and probably impractical.  

    I think that there are good arguments to be made that we should not practice this now.  I disagree with the position that it is intrinsically wrong and our ancestors were sinning and/or in error.  I think that the argument that Ladislaus is making is flawed.  I looked at it carefully and thought about it.  I have looked all the arguments made in this thread.
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #481 on: November 25, 2017, 02:58:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 25, 2017, 02:52:31 PM

    I myself have made several arguments against using corporal punishment throughout this thread.  My position is that this was a traditional belief and practice of the Church, but is not prudent now and probably impractical.  

    The argument has been made that it has not been a practice of the Church. You haven't paid attention to those arguments. 

    Just because it has been a practice in a culture (Catholic culture) to beat wives, doesn't men that it has been a stated teaching of the Church. 

    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #482 on: November 25, 2017, 02:58:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on November 25, 2017, 02:58:17 PM
    The argument has been made that it has not been a practice of the Church. You haven't paid attention to those arguments.

    Just because it has been a practice in a culture (Catholic culture) to beat wives, doesn't men that it has been a stated teaching of the Church.
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #483 on: November 25, 2017, 03:02:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • I forgot to check the non-anonymous quote box yet AGAIN! 
    Logged

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #484 on: November 25, 2017, 03:08:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
    • Quote from: Anonymous on November 25, 2017, 02:58:17 PM
    The argument has been made that it has not been a practice of the Church. You haven't paid attention to those arguments.

    Just because it has been a practice in a culture (Catholic culture) to beat wives, doesn't men that it has been a stated teaching of the Church.
    Those saying it has not been a practice of the Church have not supported their position.  Nobody has offered any authoritative sources against corporal punishment.   In contrast, there have been authoritative sources for it.  

    It is not enough to assert something.  One must provide evidence and the opponents of corporal punishment have not done so.  The proponents are the ones who made a better case for their position.
    Logged

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6792
    • Reputation: +3470/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #485 on: November 25, 2017, 03:16:59 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 25, 2017, 03:08:21 PM
    Those saying it has not been a practice of the Church have not supported their position.  Nobody has offered any authoritative sources against corporal punishment.   In contrast, there have been authoritative sources for it.  

    It is not enough to assert something.  One must provide evidence and the opponents of corporal punishment have not done so.  The proponents are the ones who made a better case for their position.

    The proponents wife-beating and wife-spanking absolutely did not make a better case. 

    And since when would 'making a better case' really count in the overall scheme of things? The Modernists in the conciliar church believe that they make a better case for their liberal views than do the Traditionalists. That doesn't mean that the Modernists are correct. 

    There is right and there is wrong. Wife-beating is wrong. 
    Logged
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #486 on: November 25, 2017, 03:38:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
    • Quote from: Meg on November 25, 2017, 03:16:59 PM
    The proponents wife-beating and wife-spanking absolutely did not make a better case.

    And since when would 'making a better case' really count in the overall scheme of things? The Modernists in the conciliar church believe that they make a better case for their liberal views than do the Traditionalists. That doesn't mean that the Modernists are correct.

    There is right and there is wrong. Wife-beating is wrong.
    Using excessive force on a wife is wrong and that has always been the position of the Church.  But that is a different issue from corporal punishment.  
    You appear to prefer going with your gut feeling to figuring out what the Church has taught.  That is actually a characteristic of modernists.
    Logged

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6792
    • Reputation: +3470/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #487 on: November 25, 2017, 03:50:05 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 25, 2017, 03:38:13 PM
    Using excessive force on a wife is wrong and that has always been the position of the Church.  But that is a different issue from corporal punishment.  
    You appear to prefer going with your gut feeling to figuring out what the Church has taught.  That is actually a characteristic of modernists.

    The Church has not taught that wife-beating or excessive force is acceptable. Just because a theologian or two held the view does not mean that it has been an actual teaching of the Church.

    This may be a good time to remind you that it hasn't been that long since you've given up some of your liberal views, especially regarding your support of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and transgenderism. 

    It may be a case that you are going too far in the opposite direction, as a counter to your once liberal views. I was a liberal, too, at one time, but that was a long time ago. 
    Logged
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47963
    • Reputation: +28351/-5306
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #488 on: November 25, 2017, 04:04:23 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 25, 2017, 12:53:24 PM
    Traditional Catholics are likely to look at tradition to determine what is right.  Traditionally marriage has been understood to be a superior/subordinate relationship. Traditionally, this involved the right to use corporal punishment.  Traditionally, the element of honour was not introduced into this issue.

    Traditionally my foot ... unless you mean traditionally with a lower-case t.  Tradition with a capital T necessarily derives from Church teaching, and there's no Church teaching on this matter.   There were theological errors that remained unchallenged for sometimes hundreds of years that were eventually questioned and then overturned by the Church.  Just because you can find a handful of theologians who support wife-beating, that doesn't make it "Traditional".  You simply make the gratuitous assertion that my argument is wrong but can't actually refute it.

    Indeed, you recognize that traditionally the element of honor was not introduced into the issue.  Well that was THE mistake that led to the erroneous and sinful practice of wife-beating.  Consequently, "Tradition" or, rather "tradition" does not refute my argument.  God commands husbands to HONOR their wives.  And the fact that the traditional sources which argue in favor of wife-beating never bothered to address the implications of honor and whether this practice is compatible with the honor due to wives invalidates those arguments.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47963
    • Reputation: +28351/-5306
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #489 on: November 25, 2017, 04:10:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Meg on November 25, 2017, 02:01:20 PM
    Has it occurred to you Jayne that it is very likely that wife-beaters are usually cretins too?

    I made my assessment of him as a cretin for reasons other than his mere support of this issue.  Jaynek aligns with him on this issue but I don't consider her a cretin.
    Logged

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #490 on: November 25, 2017, 04:17:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
    • Quote from: Meg on November 25, 2017, 03:50:05 PM
    The Church has not taught that wife-beating or excessive force is acceptable. Just because a theologian or two held the view does not mean that it has been an actual teaching of the Church.
    You are not adding anything new to the discussion.  I am not going to restate all the evidence that this was an actual teaching of the Church.  I was, however, convinced by this evidence.  Making up other motives for me is neither logical nor honest.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47963
    • Reputation: +28351/-5306
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #491 on: November 25, 2017, 04:23:42 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 25, 2017, 04:17:59 PM
    You are not adding anything new to the discussion.  I am not going to restate all the evidence that this was an actual teaching of the Church.  I was, however, convinced by this evidence.  Making up other motives for me is neither logical nor honest.

    This was stated in response to your incorrect use of the term Tradition.  None are so easily convinced as those who wish to be convinced.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47963
    • Reputation: +28351/-5306
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #492 on: November 25, 2017, 04:26:12 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on November 25, 2017, 11:15:27 AM
    I state the truth, and if people don't like, well, they can literally go to hell.

    For people like you, when they get to that stage, the only thing they need to wake them up is a good flogging.

    THIS is why I call this Anonymous blowhard a cretin.  So, Jaynek, do you really think this buffoon is not capable of abusing his wife?  He's already calling for a "good flogging" for someone who disagrees with him on a theological point.  Heaven help the poor woman who burns his toast.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47963
    • Reputation: +28351/-5306
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #493 on: November 25, 2017, 04:27:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 25, 2017, 02:25:35 PM
    There is no reason to think that anybody posting in this thread is a wife-beater.

    see the section I cited from Anonymous Cretin just above
    Logged

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #494 on: November 25, 2017, 04:56:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 25, 2017, 04:04:23 PM
    Traditionally my foot ... unless you mean traditionally with a lower-case t.  Tradition with a capital T necessarily derives from Church teaching, and there's no Church teaching on this matter.   There were theological errors that remained unchallenged for sometimes hundreds of years that were eventually questioned and then overturned by the Church.  Just because you can find a handful of theologians who support wife-beating, that doesn't make it "Traditional".  You simply make the gratuitous assertion that my argument is wrong but can't actually refute it.
    It was merely not a handful of theologians.  This is what was taught in the manuals for priests and in canon law. This was the official teaching. This was also was the common understanding of most people.  I am not aware of any evidence of any Catholic, theologian or not, thinking anything else.  
    I do not see how anyone on this forum has the authority to say they were wrong.  I have repeatedly explained why your argument is logically flawed and unconvincing.  If you actually believe that women are being threatened by people's beliefs on this subject, focus on the  arguments that have some hope of convincing people.
    Logged
    Pages: 1 ... 31 32 [33] 34 35 ... 41
    « previous next »