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Author Topic: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife  (Read 183173 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
« Reply #465 on: November 25, 2017, 12:32:07 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, this is a really weak argument that can't convince anyone because there are hundreds of years of the Church teaching that a husband does have a right to use corporal punishment on his wife.  There is no precedent for saying for saying it is incompatible with the honour due to a wife.  Your position just comes a cross as a novelty based on your personal interpretation of Scripture. The question of who has the right to discipline whom has been answered many times over in this regard.

    I think you could make a stronger case by acknowledging that the right exists but should be waived.

    No, it's a very strong argument.  It's stronger than anything on the pro-wife-beating side.  Those who advocate wife-beating discuss the issue as if it were a simple case of a superior disciplining a subordinate.  Once the element of honor is introduced ... which none of the wife-beating advocates consider ... then the burden shifts to them to demonstrate that honor permits physical violence of husband against wife ... while it precludes it from children against parents.

    And, guess what, you're not going to convince anyone who's against wife beating in principle to be for it either ... because we consider your argument to be extremely weak also.  You have made NO argument whatsoever except to cite "authorities" who think as you do and to reiterate the notion that a superior can physically discipline an inferior.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #466 on: November 25, 2017, 12:32:16 PM »
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  • No, it's a very strong argument.  It's stronger than anything on the pro-wife-beating side.  Those who advocate wife-beating discuss the issue as if it were a simple case of a superior disciplining a subordinate.  Once the element of honor is introduced ... which none of the wife-beating advocates consider ... then the burden shifts to them to demonstrate that honor permits physical violence of husband against wife ... while it precludes it from children against parents.

    And, guess what, you're not going to convince anyone who's against wife beating in principle to be for it either ... because we consider your argument to be extremely weak also.  You have made NO argument whatsoever except to cite "authorities" who think as you do and to reiterate the notion that a superior can physically discipline an inferior.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #467 on: November 25, 2017, 12:34:22 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, this is a really weak argument that can't convince anyone because there are hundreds of years of the Church teaching that a husband does have a right to use corporal punishment on his wife.  There is no precedent for saying for saying it is incompatible with the honour due to a wife.  Your position just comes a cross as a novelty based on your personal interpretation of Scripture. The question of who has the right to discipline whom has been answered many times over in this regard.

    I think you could make a stronger case by acknowledging that the right exists but should be waived.   I found your argument in another thread about how this can cause scandal thought-provoking and persuasive.  There is no question that the idea of corporal punishment of a wife is shocking and disturbing to modern people, to a point where it can interfere with them accepting the Faith.  

    This reminds me of the situation that St. Paul wrote about in I Corinthians 8.  As you know, the people were arguing over whether it was permissible to eat food that had been sacrificed to idols.  St. Paul acknowledged the position of those who believed it was permissible by saying that they were right that the false gods did not not exist and the sacrifices had no real power.  But he told them that even if, strictly speaking, they had a right to do it, it was spiritually harmful to others.  He told them to consider their weaker brothers.

    The idea that we must consider the effect our actions have on others when determining the morality of the action is well established in traditional Catholic moral teaching.  This makes a much better basis for an argument against corporal punishment.

    So I thought you were going to back off the scandal you are causing by condoning and enabling violence and disrespect towards women ... as well as scandalizing people who might otherwise consider Traditional Catholicism except for this kind of garbage.  What happened?  Just couldn't help yourself?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #468 on: November 25, 2017, 12:49:17 PM »
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  • Let me lay it out again:

    Proponents of wife-beating rely upon the fact that it is generally permitted for a superior to physically discipline a subordinate.

    But proponents of wife-beating do not take into account that the husband-wife relationship is not a simple superior-subordinate relationship.

    God requires that husbands HONOR their wives.

    In other situations where honor is required, honor precludes the use of physical violence because it's degrading to the one receiving it and incompatible with honor.  So, for instance, it's considered a heinous act for a child to strike his parent.

    OBJECTION:  But it's wrong for a child to strike his parent because that's the case of a subordinate striking an inferior.

    RESPONSE:  No, it's not simply wrong, but a heinous act for a child to strike his parent.  While it would be wrong for a soldier to strike his commanding officer ... under most circuмstances, it's not the same egregious and heinous act as that of a child striking a parent.  Why?  Because the latter represents a violation of the honor which children should have towards their parents.

    Now the burden of proof is on the pro-wife-beaters to demonstrate that there's a valid distinction in types of honor that would on the one hand allow a husband to strike his wife while at the same time forbidding a child from striking his parent.  Until such a distinction is proven without a doubt by wife-beating advocates, Catholics should consider it forbidden and incompatible with the honor owed by a husband to his wife to lay violent hands on her.

    So, Jaynek, where's the "weakness" of this argument?  Answer: it's only in your mind because you're emotionally invested for some reason in the opposite position.  You simply keep parroting back over and over again how various Catholic authorities have considered it permissible.  But I'm arguing that they're wrong ... because they forgot something.  None of these authorities answered the objection I've made:  What about "honor" in a husband-wife relationship?  Since they failed to address that objection, I consider their positions to be unproven and invalid.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #469 on: November 25, 2017, 12:50:26 PM »
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  • So I thought you were going to back off the scandal you are causing by condoning and enabling violence and disrespect towards women ... as well as scandalizing people who might otherwise consider Traditional Catholicism except for this kind of garbage.  What happened?  Just couldn't help yourself?

    And with every post you simply embolden that Anonymous cretin who interleaves his posts with yours.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #470 on: November 25, 2017, 12:53:24 PM »
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  • No, it's a very strong argument.  It's stronger than anything on the pro-wife-beating side.  Those who advocate wife-beating discuss the issue as if it were a simple case of a superior disciplining a subordinate.  Once the element of honor is introduced ... which none of the wife-beating advocates consider ... then the burden shifts to them to demonstrate that honor permits physical violence of husband against wife ... while it precludes it from children against parents.

    And, guess what, you're not going to convince anyone who's against wife beating in principle to be for it either ... because we consider your argument to be extremely weak also.  You have made NO argument whatsoever except to cite "authorities" who think as you do and to reiterate the notion that a superior can physically discipline an inferior.
    Traditional Catholics are likely to look at tradition to determine what is right.  Traditionally marriage has been understood to be a superior/subordinate relationship. Traditionally, this involved the right to use corporal punishment.  Traditionally, the element of honour was not introduced into this issue.  Of course we look at "authorities" to understand what the traditional teaching was.  This is how trads do things.  It is pretty much what makes us trads.

    And this is line of reasoning can convince people.  Do you think I started out believing this?  I spent most of my life accepting the common beliefs of this culture.  When I discovered the richness of traditional Catholicism, I made a conscious effort to rid myself of cultural prejudices and to let myself be formed by the traditional teaching of the Church.  That is how I came to believe what I do now.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #471 on: November 25, 2017, 01:07:35 PM »
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  • So I thought you were going to back off the scandal you are causing by condoning and enabling violence and disrespect towards women ... as well as scandalizing people who might otherwise consider Traditional Catholicism except for this kind of garbage.  What happened?  Just couldn't help yourself?
    This is what I was telling you when I wrote about 1 Corinthians 8.  When the issue is scandal,  one needs to acknowledge that this is the problem rather than making weak arguments that the thing is intrinsically wrong.  

    Your arguments against corporal punishment are probably at least as much of an encouragement to its supporters as my posts are because your argument goes against the assumptions that trads normally make.  You are, in effect, convincing them that they are right.  So if, in fact, these people want violence and disrespect towards women, you are promoting it too.

    And every time you make a post presenting your position, you are inviting people to express their disagreement, thereby continuing whatever scandal this causes.  

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #472 on: November 25, 2017, 01:15:01 PM »
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  • Thank you, Ladislaus for defending the Catholic, honorable position.

    It always baffles me when it is the women themselves who defend this type of barbarism against them. Most likely, they defend this because they are actually being beaten by their husbands already and just THEN make rationalizations to justify the behavior. They come from a place of a complete lack of dignity and self - respect.

    Pathetic.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #473 on: November 25, 2017, 01:28:51 PM »
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  • So, Jaynek, where's the "weakness" of this argument?  
    Right here:
    In other situations where honor is required, honor precludes the use of physical violence because it's degrading to the one receiving it and incompatible with honor.  So, for instance, it's considered a heinous act for a child to strike his parent.
    This is a false analogy.  You need an example in which a superior must honour a subordinate and it is never permissible to use corporal punishment.  You are claiming that the wrongness of striking a parent derives from the honour due to them, but it is not possible to separate this honour from the fact of it being a superior position.  

    There is absolutely no reason to assume that the honour given to a subordinate is the same as the honour given to a superior.  It is the very nature of the superior-subordinate relationship that these are different roles.  No authorities ever answered your objection because they never imagined that anyone would say anything so illogical.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #474 on: November 25, 2017, 01:50:30 PM »
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  • And with every post you simply embolden that Anonymous cretin who interleaves his posts with yours.
    And when you call him an Anonymous cretin you strengthen his belief that your opinions have no value.  

    In order to persuade people to change their behaviour one speaks to them respectfully and establishes some common ground.  Name-calling hardens people in their positions.  
    I think you would have a lot more success if you acknowledged your opponents as trying to do the right thing and having a legitimate basis for their beliefs.  How is anyone going to be convinced by being called a wife-beater and a cretin?

    And if your goal is not to persuade people, then what is your reason for posting about this?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #475 on: November 25, 2017, 02:01:20 PM »
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  • And when you call him an Anonymous cretin you strengthen his belief that your opinions have no value.  

    In order to persuade people to change their behaviour one speaks to them respectfully and establishes some common ground.  Name-calling hardens people in their positions.  
    I think you would have a lot more success if you acknowledged your opponents as trying to do the right thing and having a legitimate basis for their beliefs.  How is anyone going to be convinced by being called a wife-beater and a cretin?

    And if your goal is not to persuade people, then what is your reason for posting about this?
    Has it occurred to you Jayne that it is very likely that wife-beaters are usually cretins too? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #476 on: November 25, 2017, 02:04:50 PM »
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  • What the hell... People must really not have anything better to do than post on such a despicable subject??

    And then we wonder why the trad world isn't flourishing. My my, what wonder.

    To the OP- get lost.

    To Matthew And Mater- Please, for the sake of God, delete this thread.
    Settle down, madam. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #477 on: November 25, 2017, 02:25:35 PM »
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  • Has it occurred to you Jayne that it is very likely that wife-beaters are usually cretins too?
    There is no reason to think that anybody posting in this thread is a wife-beater.  I suspect that some of the men posting here spank their wives which is not the same thing at all.  (I recently saw somebody on another forum say he did this.)

    If one were to dismiss people as cretins merely for the position they take, I expect we would see a lot of flat earth proponents called cretins.  I prefer to look at the arguments people make for their positions.  Although even Ladislaus, whom I think is very smart, is making a bad argument in this thread.  So even that does not always work.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #478 on: November 25, 2017, 02:33:40 PM »
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  • There is no reason to think that anybody posting in this thread is a wife-beater.  I suspect that some of the men posting here spank their wives which is not the same thing at all.  (I recently saw somebody on another forum say he did this.)

    If one were to dismiss people as cretins merely for the position they take, I expect we would see a lot of flat earth proponents called cretins.  I prefer to look at the arguments people make for their positions.  Although even Ladislaus, whom I think is very smart, is making a bad argument in this thread.  So even that does not always work.
    The term 'cretin' was used specifically to describe wife-beaters. It wasn't meant in a general way. One definition of 'cretin' is to be stupid, which I believe is an appropriate description for wife-beaters and wife-spankers. You are distracting away from the subject by stating this, which you often do. And you aren't even looking at the argument against wife-beaters or wife-spankers (as if spanking is more acceptable!). 

    And, flat-earthers have been called MUCH worse things than mere 'cretins,' but I don't see that you have ever complained about that. 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #479 on: November 25, 2017, 02:34:55 PM »
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  • Oops, I forgot to check the anonymous box for the post above. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29