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Author Topic: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife  (Read 184506 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
« Reply #210 on: October 27, 2017, 12:03:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on October 27, 2017, 12:03:18 PM
    No, it's not moot.  You're going around promoting the licitness of wife-beating, and you'll have to answer for it if someone were influenced by your post to attack his wife.

    So all you can do is cite a text from St. Thomas and one moral theology manual.  Slam dunk.

    Again, you speak of logic, but you fail to address the logical argument I'm making ... but keep falling back on those two sources.

    My point is precisely that I am disagreeing with these sources and am giving my logical argument for WHY I disagree with it.  It's really quite simple.  Demonstrate a valid provable distinction between the honor we must have for our parents and the honor we must have for our wife that justifies applying violence to one's wife but renders violence towards one's parents sinful.
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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #211 on: October 27, 2017, 12:04:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on October 27, 2017, 07:58:10 AM
    Otherwise we are in danger of thoughtlessly accepting society's values.

    I'm sorry, but not beating your wife is a Christian value, not a societal one.  I'm sure that wife-beating was much more common before the advent of Christianity.
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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #212 on: October 27, 2017, 12:09:47 PM »
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    • If I didn't know any better, Jaynek, I'd say that your husband should give you a smack on the mouth for spreading erroneous and potentially harmful opinions on a forum while attempting to exert yourself above men and argue against them in public.  That's not your place as a woman.  You have a grave misunderstanding of the position of women in society.  Keep silent and let your husband come on her and argue your case.

    I Timothy 2:12
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    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #213 on: October 27, 2017, 12:10:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on October 27, 2017, 12:09:47 PM
    If I didn't know any better, Jaynek, I'd say that your husband should give you a smack on the mouth for spreading erroneous and potentially harmful opinions on a forum while attempting to exert yourself above men and argue against them in public.  That's not your place as a woman.  You have a grave misunderstanding of the position of women in society.  Keep silent and let your husband come on her and argue your case.

    I Timothy 2:12
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #214 on: October 27, 2017, 12:50:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 27, 2017, 11:53:17 AM
    You speak of logic, but you have no real grasp of it nor ability to apply it.  This is absolutely relevant.  It's an illustration of the fact that not ever superior-subordinate relationship entails a right to inflict corporal punishment.
    Your evidence for this "fact" was a misunderstanding of Canon Law.  It does not mean what you think it does.  What you consider "the plain meaning" would be in conflict with various monastic constitutions.  If it were actually the intent of the canon to overrule these, it would do so explicitly. 

    So you have not established that there is a superior-subordinate relationship that does not entail a right to inflict corporal punishment.  Personally, I cannot think of any examples occurring before the last century.  Corporal punishment was the norm in every area - schools (including university students), military, monasteries, civil law, etc.  

    But let's say, for the sake of argument, that you had been correct that priests could never be disciplined by their superiors.  It does not logically follow from this that a wife cannot be disciplined.  A wife is not a priest and there is no reason to think that the honour given to a priest is the same as the honour given to a wife.  You were committing the fallacy of false analogy.  

    Historically speaking, many (if not all) superior-subordinate relationships included corporal punishment and it is a matter of historical fact that most people in the past (including Catholics) believed this of the husband-wife relationship.  It is not relevant to this whether you can find an example of a superior-subordinate relationship that did not include corporal punishment.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #215 on: October 27, 2017, 01:08:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on October 27, 2017, 12:03:18 PM
    No, it's not moot.  You're going around promoting the licitness of wife-beating, and you'll have to answer for it if someone were influenced by your post to attack his wife.

    So all you can do is cite a text from St. Thomas and one moral theology manual.  Slam dunk.

    Again, you speak of logic, but you fail to address the logical argument I'm making ... but keep falling back on those two sources.

    My point is precisely that I am disagreeing with these sources and am giving my logical argument for WHY I disagree with it.  It's really quite simple.  Demonstrate a valid provable distinction between the honor we must have for our parents and the honor we must have for our wife that justifies applying violence to one's wife but renders violence towards one's parents sinful.
    So are those of us who believe that parents may use corporal punishment on our children responsible when some people abuse children?  There will always be people who try to justify wrong actions.  It does not mean we should refrain from speaking the truth out of fear of how it might be misused.

    I cite traditional sources to support my position.  You do not.  You implied that would do so, if I gave sources first, but you did not.  All you have given is a "logical" argument that relies on fallacies and deliberate use of emotionally-laden, pejorative terminology.  

    One distinction between the honour given to parents and that given to a wife, is that honouring parents is one of the 10 Commandments.  Another distinction is that a wife is subject to her husband, but parents are not subject to their children.  
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #216 on: October 27, 2017, 01:18:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on October 27, 2017, 12:09:47 PM
    If I didn't know any better, Jaynek, I'd say that your husband should give you a smack on the mouth for spreading erroneous and potentially harmful opinions on a forum while attempting to exert yourself above men and argue against them in public.  That's not your place as a woman.  You have a grave misunderstanding of the position of women in society.  Keep silent and let your husband come on her and argue your case.

    I Timothy 2:12
    Since you are concerned, I will ask my husband if he has any objections to my posts in this thread.  I do have general permission to post on forums, but I will check on what he thinks of this thread specifically.  

    I was not aware of any Catholic teaching that women should not argue with men in public.  Of course, teaching men as if I had authority over them would be wrong, but I do not see how that applies to forum discussions.  I am not usurping anybody's authority; I'm just giving my opinions.
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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #217 on: October 27, 2017, 01:50:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on October 27, 2017, 12:50:29 PM
    Your evidence for this "fact" was a misunderstanding of Canon Law.

    No, this was not "evidence"; this was an example.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #218 on: October 27, 2017, 02:48:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on October 27, 2017, 01:18:51 PM
    Since you are concerned, I will ask my husband if he has any objections to my posts in this thread.  I do have general permission to post on forums, but I will check on what he thinks of this thread specifically.  

    I was not aware of any Catholic teaching that women should not argue with men in public.  Of course, teaching men as if I had authority over them would be wrong, but I do not see how that applies to forum discussions.  I am not usurping anybody's authority; I'm just giving my opinions.

    My post was satirical.  I do not believe that women are not allowed to express their opinions publicly or to argue with men ... just as I don't believe that husbands should spank their wives.  I don't believe that it was the meaning of St. Paul.  But women, especially wives, should be respectful while disagreeing with men, especially their husbands.
     
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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #219 on: October 27, 2017, 02:57:11 PM »
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    • I said that your husband should smack you ... while the whole time I've been arguing that it's wrong.  So I figured that the satire would be obvious.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #220 on: October 27, 2017, 02:57:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on October 27, 2017, 02:57:11 PM
    I said that your husband should smack you ... while the whole time I've been arguing that it's wrong.  So I figured that the satire would be obvious.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #221 on: October 27, 2017, 03:40:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 27, 2017, 02:48:42 PM
    My post was satirical.  I do not believe that women are not allowed to express their opinions publicly or to argue with men ... just as I don't believe that husbands should spank their wives.  I don't believe that it was the meaning of St. Paul.  But women, especially wives, should be respectful while disagreeing with men, especially their husbands.
     
    I have been working very hard on being respectful to you.  You should see the things I thought of writing to you but did not.  ;D

    But seriously, the principles given by St. Paul all still hold true today.  Women should be silent in church (one reason why women cannot be priests) and a wife should obey her husband and be subject to him.  There may be some room for legitimate disagreement on how to apply these principles in specific circuмstances.  I am not telling you or any man here that he ought to spank his wife.  

    But neither am I prepared to say it is intrinsically wrong and every man who has ever done it was committing a sin.  I have too much respect for the wisdom of the past to simply throw out the teaching of St. Thomas or traditional moral theology.  
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #222 on: October 27, 2017, 03:44:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on October 27, 2017, 02:57:11 PM
    I said that your husband should smack you ... while the whole time I've been arguing that it's wrong.  So I figured that the satire would be obvious.
    It was confusing because of the way you phrased it - "If I didn't know any better, Jaynek, I'd say that your husband should give you a smack on the mouth..." 

    This is something a person who believes hitting is wrong might say.
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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #223 on: October 27, 2017, 03:48:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on October 27, 2017, 03:40:02 PM
    I have been working very hard on being respectful to you.  You should see the things I thought of writing to you but did not.  ;D
    More emotional responses.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #224 on: October 27, 2017, 08:30:51 PM »
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