Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Author Topic: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass  (Read 1700 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Anonymous

  • Guest
Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2019, 09:46:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think your kids should stay, and encourage all the kids to quit saying the dialogue mass.  Maybe you could give them info to pass around to their friends.  One day the priest would show up ready to dialogue, and be confronted with dead silence.  That would be wonderful.

    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #16 on: August 14, 2019, 08:25:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • With serious reservations, but based on a majority decision of priests I consulted, I enrolled my kids in an sspx school.

    The overarching rule being that I remain daily vigilant about what is happening socially, liturgically, etc. to ensure they are not being inculcated with a conciliatory attitude towards modernist Rome.

    Moments ago I discovered that, despite our instruction to our children that they not make the responses during the dialogue Mass, the teachers are pressuring them to disregard our instruction.

    One teacher removed my child from class to speak with him in the hallway about how good and important it is to make the responses, and another teacher told my other child’s class that whoever made the responses would receive two marbles (my child perceived that this was in response to this teachers’ having discovered that he was not making the responses).

    Now whether or not one likes the dialogue mass is not the immediate concern.  What is the immediate concern is that on the one hand, I have never heard of or experienced a Mass in which one was forced to make the responses (can we no longer pray the Rosary or read our missals or simply make our own devotions?), and even more troubling is that the teachers are aware of our instructions to our children (one of my children told the teacher to take it up with us, which made me proud, but they never did), but are apparently pressuring them anyway.

    I am not sure I can continue to keep my kids in an environment which will result in a struggle for their formation.

    On the flip side, things will be very difficult if we are forced to homeschool.  

    I am very upset to be put in this position (even angry), since I had thought and hoped the school would look the other way regarding the responses.

    There are other issues as well (eg., my children are singled out by their peers for not standing during the angus dei or the Sanctus, etc).

    If you were in my position, do you think this pressuring crosses the line which should result in my pulling them from the school?

    I guess I still need to clarify whether the pressuring has continued after my child told the teacher to take it up with us.

    I don’t want to be rash, but I don’t want to be negligent.

    This is very difficult for me, and any constructive commentary would be much appreciated.
    I cannot believe you are treating this as though it's some kind of heresy.


    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #17 on: August 14, 2019, 08:27:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I cannot believe you are treating this as though it's some kind of heresy.
    It is called conviction, she has conviction, you do not. The Dialogue mass was a stepping stone to the Novus Ordo. 

    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #18 on: August 14, 2019, 09:03:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Exactly.  The liturgical innovators began the dialogue mass without permission, spreading and networking through monasteries, later gaining the permissions of liberal bishops who eventually succeeded in having Rome bless their modernist practices/principles.

    The sspx thinks they will do the same thing with Rome (grass roots reform).

    What they don’t realize is that the modernists occupy Rome, so traditionalism will not be permitted to percolate upward as the liturgical revolutionaries did in the wake of Pius X’s weak successors (Benedict XV, who abolished the Sodalitium, giving the green light to the modernists to come out of hiding).

    Online forlorn

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1395
    • Reputation: +555/-844
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #19 on: August 14, 2019, 01:41:12 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • This sounds like a huge overreaction to what was probably just a mild misunderstanding. The teachers likely just assumed that your children weren't responding because they were bored or being irreverent. I'm sure quick conversation with the teacher to let them know why your kids don't want to say the responses would settle the issue.

    Isolating your children from their peers will do them much more harm than the Dialogue Mass.


    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #20 on: August 14, 2019, 02:00:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This sounds like a huge overreaction to what was probably just a mild misunderstanding. The teachers likely just assumed that your children weren't responding because they were bored or being irreverent. I'm sure quick conversation with the teacher to let them know why your kids don't want to say the responses would settle the issue.

    Isolating your children from their peers will do them much more harm than the Dialogue Mass.
    We had already had that talk with one of the teachers involved.  
    As for isolating them from their peers being damaging, that presumes their peers are good influences, which given the ralliement milieu, I do not believe to be the case (in fact, I think it much more deleterious than the dialogue mass thing).

    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #21 on: August 14, 2019, 04:01:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I am the OP: Just found out that we received this information while, unbeknownst to me, my wife and mother were saying a novena for this intention (i.e., whether or not our kids should go to the school).  It was apparently on the 7th day of the novena that the kids gave my wife this info, and the 9th day of the Novena is the school's registration deadline (Aug. 15)!  To me, that sounds like heaven has approved our decision.  I don't believe in coincidences.

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 430
    • Reputation: +90/-29
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #22 on: August 14, 2019, 04:49:02 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't know a whole lot about the dialogue mass, but it seems like the real issue here is circumventing of parental authority, not the dialogue mass per se.



    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #23 on: August 14, 2019, 05:43:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I am the OP: Just found out that we received this information while, unbeknownst to me, my wife and mother were saying a novena for this intention (i.e., whether or not our kids should go to the school).  It was apparently on the 7th day of the novena that the kids gave my wife this info, and the 9th day of the Novena is the school's registration deadline (Aug. 15)!  To me, that sounds like heaven has approved our decision.  I don't believe in coincidences.
    Are you the only parents in the school with that concern? If not, maybe a bigger group could address the issue with the school principal just like the Canadians in Calgary did with the diversity issue in the school handbook. 

    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #24 on: August 20, 2019, 08:21:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • With serious reservations, but based on a majority decision of priests I consulted, I enrolled my kids in an sspx school.

    The overarching rule being that I remain daily vigilant about what is happening socially, liturgically, etc. to ensure they are not being inculcated with a conciliatory attitude towards modernist Rome.

    Moments ago I discovered that, despite our instruction to our children that they not make the responses during the dialogue Mass, the teachers are pressuring them to disregard our instruction.

    One teacher removed my child from class to speak with him in the hallway about how good and important it is to make the responses, and another teacher told my other child’s class that whoever made the responses would receive two marbles (my child perceived that this was in response to this teachers’ having discovered that he was not making the responses).

    Now whether or not one likes the dialogue mass is not the immediate concern.  What is the immediate concern is that on the one hand, I have never heard of or experienced a Mass in which one was forced to make the responses (can we no longer pray the Rosary or read our missals or simply make our own devotions?), and even more troubling is that the teachers are aware of our instructions to our children (one of my children told the teacher to take it up with us, which made me proud, but they never did), but are apparently pressuring them anyway.

    I am not sure I can continue to keep my kids in an environment which will result in a struggle for their formation.

    On the flip side, things will be very difficult if we are forced to homeschool.  

    I am very upset to be put in this position (even angry), since I had thought and hoped the school would look the other way regarding the responses.

    There are other issues as well (eg., my children are singled out by their peers for not standing during the angus dei or the Sanctus, etc).

    If you were in my position, do you think this pressuring crosses the line which should result in my pulling them from the school?

    I guess I still need to clarify whether the pressuring has continued after my child told the teacher to take it up with us.

    I don’t want to be rash, but I don’t want to be negligent.

    This is very difficult for me, and any constructive commentary would be much appreciated.
    I am the OP of this thread.  Just wanted to mention that after a few more days of questioning the children and speaking with one of the teachers about the matter, it now seems very unlikely the stories our children passed along to us about being pressured to make the dialogue responses are accurate (and the priest says he has had teacher conferences explicitly stating my children are not to be pressured into making them, per our request).
    My apologies to all involved on this specific point.  We are rather embarrassed.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17593
    • Reputation: +9869/-4293
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #25 on: August 20, 2019, 08:33:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I am the OP of this thread.  Just wanted to mention that after a few more days of questioning the children and speaking with one of the teachers about the matter, it now seems very unlikely the stories our children passed along to us about being pressured to make the dialogue responses are accurate (and the priest says he has had teacher conferences explicitly stating my children are not to be pressured into making them, per our request).
    My apologies to all involved on this specific point.  We are rather embarrassed.

    You'll find that nearly everything that children say must be taken with a huge grain of salt.  Now, they probably weren't even lying.  It was their "perception" that they were being pressured due to the mere "everyone else is doing it" factor, a perceived peer pressure.  As the teacher perhaps encouraged the class to make the responses, the kids felt the pressure as well.  Which then turned into, "the teacher was pressuring me to say the responses."

    When I get a report of some incident related by one of my kids at school, I usually ask one of their siblings or peers for an independent recounting of the incident.  Sometimes you can get to the truth by overlapping their accounts and sifting out the differences that were due to subjective perception.


    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #26 on: August 20, 2019, 08:47:07 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You'll find that nearly everything that children say must be taken with a huge grain of salt.  Now, they probably weren't even lying.  It was their "perception" that they were being pressured due to the mere "everyone else is doing it" factor, a perceived peer pressure.  As the teacher perhaps encouraged the class to make the responses, the kids felt the pressure as well.  Which then turned into, "the teacher was pressuring me to say the responses."

    When I get a report of some incident related by one of my kids at school, I usually ask one of their siblings or peers for an independent recounting of the incident.  Sometimes you can get to the truth by overlapping their accounts and sifting out the differences that were due to subjective perception.
    Yes, it seems that something along those lines was in play.  I recall taking great offense when recounting to the priest what my kids had told me, and he laughed, and asked, “You would believe your children over one of our school faculty?”  At the time, that sounded cultish to me, and I replied “Absolutely, I would believe my children over someone at the school.”  We speak so much to our young children about being able to tell us anything, the importance of honesty, etc. The thought that they -either through lies or misperception or exaggeration- would get something like this wrong was inconceivable to us...and yet it happened.  How does one trust one’s children again after a blunder like that?

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17593
    • Reputation: +9869/-4293
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #27 on: August 20, 2019, 09:03:57 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • How does one trust one’s children again after a blunder like that?

    First, you have to determine whether it was a deliberate and conscious lie.  If that was the case, then I would tell them that I had lost trust in them and cannot accept their word for anything, that they would have to work to regain the trust.

    If it was a question of perception, then you have to apply the "Wisdom of Solomon" to extract the truth from their accounts (taking into account other independent data sources).

    So, for example, if my child tells me something bad about another child, or a teacher, or coach, I always FIRST, before I do anything else, or react in any way, get one or two independent accounts of what ACTUALLY transpired.  [THESE lessons have been learned, often the hard way, after the first few children].  I invariably find that their story doesn't line up perfectly with reality, since there's a certain amount of subjectivity, and the degree of subjectivity (imposition of interpretation and imagination) is very high among children.  So I'll get another kid's account, and if possible also an adult's account, preferably from someone without any kind of personal "stake" in the situation.  You can usually get very close to the actual truth by comparing the various accounts ... and filtering out bias.  So, for instance, I have a couple of my kids who are always plotting to get the other one in trouble, so I know that I will get accounts that are biased against their enemy as much as possible.

    I think that it's important for us parents not to go in after our children's teachers, priests, etc. "guns-a-blazing" after having accepted one child's account at face value.  It used to be that if a child got disciplined at school, the parent would double up on it at home.  Now, when a school disciplines a child, the parents get up in arms and call for the heads of the teachers.  If my child gets in trouble, my first question is, "So what did you do?"  It's important for that first reaction NOT to be "How dare that teacher do such and such!"  That seems to be the knee-jerk reaction these days.

    And, you know, so what if a teacher is not a perfect human being?  I fail often as a parent, and these teachers are helping to raise my children.  I am grateful for their efforts, and tolerant of their failings, and realize that they are sinful human beings just like the rest of us.  It's rather hypocritical that parents who themselves fail all the time feel that they have a right to demand perfection of their children's teachers, and the first reaction is to call for their heads while brandishing torches and pitchforks in response to even the slightest mistake or slip-up.  These teachers are undertaking their vacation to help educate the children often at great cost to themselves, and we owe them more than this.

    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #28 on: August 20, 2019, 09:14:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I certainly bungled the situation, no doubt about it.  Hopefully we will learn from it and improve because of it.  Thank you for your excellent commentary, Ladislaus.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17593
    • Reputation: +9869/-4293
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #29 on: August 20, 2019, 09:37:01 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have two kids in particular who are sworn enemies, always trying to get each other in trouble.

    So they'll often come to me to resolve a dispute in their favor, or to punish the other party for some misdeed.

    90% of the time, I am able to interrogate them in such a way that I can get very close to the truth.  Question them separately (as law enforcement tend to do) ... so they cannot alter their story to make it more convincing.  In those cases where I can't get to the truth in a reasonable amount of time (sometimes I'm too busy to see it through), I just tell them both that I can take no action because both of them have shown themselves to be less than completely honest and I can never know who I can trust to be telling the truth.  I am hoping thereby to inspire them to be more honest so as to build up trust (even if it's with the ultimate goal of using said trust as a weapon against their rival).

    In any case, RARELY is it the case that they tell a straightforward lie.  It's usually a question of "omission".  Such-and-such hit me.  Really?  But they leave out WHY that person hit them, spinning it as though it were a completely unprovoked vicious attack that came out of the blue  :laugh1:.


     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16