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Anonymous

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Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
« on: August 13, 2019, 08:23:23 AM »
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  • With serious reservations, but based on a majority decision of priests I consulted, I enrolled my kids in an sspx school.

    The overarching rule being that I remain daily vigilant about what is happening socially, liturgically, etc. to ensure they are not being inculcated with a conciliatory attitude towards modernist Rome.

    Moments ago I discovered that, despite our instruction to our children that they not make the responses during the dialogue Mass, the teachers are pressuring them to disregard our instruction.

    One teacher removed my child from class to speak with him in the hallway about how good and important it is to make the responses, and another teacher told my other child’s class that whoever made the responses would receive two marbles (my child perceived that this was in response to this teachers’ having discovered that he was not making the responses).

    Now whether or not one likes the dialogue mass is not the immediate concern.  What is the immediate concern is that on the one hand, I have never heard of or experienced a Mass in which one was forced to make the responses (can we no longer pray the Rosary or read our missals or simply make our own devotions?), and even more troubling is that the teachers are aware of our instructions to our children (one of my children told the teacher to take it up with us, which made me proud, but they never did), but are apparently pressuring them anyway.

    I am not sure I can continue to keep my kids in an environment which will result in a struggle for their formation.

    On the flip side, things will be very difficult if we are forced to homeschool.  

    I am very upset to be put in this position (even angry), since I had thought and hoped the school would look the other way regarding the responses.

    There are other issues as well (eg., my children are singled out by their peers for not standing during the angus dei or the Sanctus, etc).

    If you were in my position, do you think this pressuring crosses the line which should result in my pulling them from the school?

    I guess I still need to clarify whether the pressuring has continued after my child told the teacher to take it up with us.

    I don’t want to be rash, but I don’t want to be negligent.

    This is very difficult for me, and any constructive commentary would be much appreciated.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #1 on: August 13, 2019, 09:22:13 AM »
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  • They are an organization based in France and started by a French archbishop — therefore, they will retain French customs. Like the Dialogue Mass.


    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #2 on: August 13, 2019, 09:31:40 AM »
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  • With serious reservations, but based on a majority decision of priests I consulted, I enrolled my kids in an sspx school.

    The overarching rule being that I remain daily vigilant about what is happening socially, liturgically, etc. to ensure they are not being inculcated with a conciliatory attitude towards modernist Rome.

    Moments ago I discovered that, despite our instruction to our children that they not make the responses during the dialogue Mass, the teachers are pressuring them to disregard our instruction.

    One teacher removed my child from class to speak with him in the hallway about how good and important it is to make the responses, and another teacher told my other child’s class that whoever made the responses would receive two marbles (my child perceived that this was in response to this teachers’ having discovered that he was not making the responses).

    Now whether or not one likes the dialogue mass is not the immediate concern.  What is the immediate concern is that on the one hand, I have never heard of or experienced a Mass in which one was forced to make the responses (can we no longer pray the Rosary or read our missals or simply make our own devotions?), and even more troubling is that the teachers are aware of our instructions to our children (one of my children told the teacher to take it up with us, which made me proud, but they never did), but are apparently pressuring them anyway.

    I am not sure I can continue to keep my kids in an environment which will result in a struggle for their formation.

    On the flip side, things will be very difficult if we are forced to homeschool.  

    I am very upset to be put in this position (even angry), since I had thought and hoped the school would look the other way regarding the responses.

    There are other issues as well (eg., my children are singled out by their peers for not standing during the angus dei or the Sanctus, etc).

    If you were in my position, do you think this pressuring crosses the line which should result in my pulling them from the school?

    I guess I still need to clarify whether the pressuring has continued after my child told the teacher to take it up with us.

    I don’t want to be rash, but I don’t want to be negligent.

    This is very difficult for me, and any constructive commentary would be much appreciated.
    The dialogue mass is a novelty from the late 1930's, that caught on big in France, but not in English speaking countries. It is not a custom in English speaking countries but a total novelty. Foreign priests were always instructed not to change the customs of the countries to which they are sent, but today the SSPX priests think they know better and that Americans are idiots. They are teaching the children what they will not say to the parents, so they are cowards, unless they first force the parents to do the Dialogue Mass, which of course is changing the local customs and always forbidden. If it were I, I would tell the person in charge that you do not authorize them to challenge your authority on this matter, to have your children excused from this novelty. 

    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #3 on: August 13, 2019, 09:34:53 AM »
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  • With serious reservations, but based on a majority decision of priests I consulted, I enrolled my kids in an sspx school.

    The overarching rule being that I remain daily vigilant about what is happening socially, liturgically, etc. to ensure they are not being inculcated with a conciliatory attitude towards modernist Rome.

    Moments ago I discovered that, despite our instruction to our children that they not make the responses during the dialogue Mass, the teachers are pressuring them to disregard our instruction.
    That is why that school only has 30 students for the last 10 years, everybody comes with hope and very soon leaves when they see these realities

    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #4 on: August 13, 2019, 10:18:21 AM »
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  • On the flip side, things will be very difficult if we are forced to homeschool.  

    I am very upset to be put in this position (even angry), since I had thought and hoped the school would look the other way regarding the responses.

    There are other issues as well (eg., my children are singled out by their peers for not standing during the angus dei or the Sanctus, etc).

    If you were in my position, do you think this pressuring crosses the line which should result in my pulling them from the school?

    I guess I still need to clarify whether the pressuring has continued after my child told the teacher to take it up with us.

    I don’t want to be rash, but I don’t want to be negligent.

    This is very difficult for me, and any constructive commentary would be much appreciated.
    As soon as possible, clarify with both your children and their teachers if the pressure is still on. If so tell the teachers that they need to stop pressuring your kids. If they say "no", then go to the Priest and tell him to please respect your decision and call an end to the pressure. Now if he says "no", then you will need to pull them out as you will only have more  battels at that schools and more stress than you would homeschooling. 


    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #5 on: August 13, 2019, 11:12:48 AM »
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  • I’m tired of having to continually walk a tightrope at the school.

    If it may have been permissible to send my children there, it certainly was never obligatory.

    It is not worth the stress, and I am certainly not going to willfully introduce the opportunity for a division into my family (especially a religious division).

    I will be notifying the school that my children will not be entering after all.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #6 on: August 13, 2019, 12:02:16 PM »
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  • I don't know.  I would find a way to pick my battles.  While I don't like the Dialogue Mass personally, it was in fact approved by Church authorities well before Vatican II, and I don't consider it to be intrinsically wrong or harmful.  I would wait until they bring a Novus Ordo bishop in to hear confessions before I started making a big stir.

    Do the benefits of having your children attend an SSPX school outweigh the potential harm of a dialogue Mass?

    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #7 on: August 13, 2019, 12:21:55 PM »
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  • I don't know.  I would find a way to pick my battles.  While I don't like the Dialogue Mass personally, it was in fact approved by Church authorities well before Vatican II, and I don't consider it to be intrinsically wrong or harmful.  I would wait until they bring a Novus Ordo bishop in to hear confessions before I started making a big stir.

    Do the benefits of having your children attend an SSPX school outweigh the potential harm of a dialogue Mass?
    Enforcement of making the dialogue mass responses is not the ultimate issue, but the loss of trust and confidence in the priest and faculty.  Once upon a time we were told they would not have to make the responses, only to learn today that there has been ongoing pressure to do precisely that.
    There are other things, like field trips to a planetarium in the post-Fr. Robinson era, where I can no longer presume SSPX priests/school faculty would correct any scientific heresies taught by planetarium staff, as I once could.
    Then the socialization has been gnawing on me: Archbishop Lefebvre said regarding the indult Mass that one does not merely attend a Mass, but an entire milieu: the sermon, the advice in the confession, the conversation before and after Mass, etc.
    And mass is only for one hour/week.  What about 7hrs/day, 5 days/week?  
    We VERY begrudgingly would have endured the dialogue mass, had the school looked the other way when our boys didn’t make the responses, as we were led to believe they would, but this day’s discovery is the straw that broke the camel’s back
    If I can’t trust, I become a derelict parent for sending my children anyway.


    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #8 on: August 13, 2019, 12:47:50 PM »
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  • Enforcement of making the dialogue mass responses is not the ultimate issue, but the loss of trust and confidence in the priest and faculty.  Once upon a time we were told they would not have to make the responses, only to learn today that there has been ongoing pressure to do precisely that.
    There are other things, like field trips to a planetarium in the post-Fr. Robinson era, where I can no longer presume SSPX priests/school faculty would correct any scientific heresies taught by planetarium staff, as I once could.
    Then the socialization has been gnawing on me: Archbishop Lefebvre said regarding the indult Mass that one does not merely attend a Mass, but an entire milieu: the sermon, the advice in the confession, the conversation before and after Mass, etc.
    And mass is only for one hour/week.  What about 7hrs/day, 5 days/week?  
    We VERY begrudgingly would have endured the dialogue mass, had the school looked the other way when our boys didn’t make the responses, as we were led to believe they would, but this day’s discovery is the straw that broke the camel’s back
    If I can’t trust, I become a derelict parent for sending my children anyway.

    Well, despite its shortcoming, many people would give almost anything to have the opportunity to send their kids to such a school.  If there are slight corrections you need to make at home, you're in a position to do so.  It almost sounds like you're scrupulous and demanding perfection.  I've seen it happen that parents increasingly isolate their children, to the point of being neurotic, to the point that the children get the impression that your family thinks that they are more Catholic even than the strict Traditional Catholics.  And they plot the entire time to break away the minute they have the opportunity.  You could likely have found worse flaws in the mainstream Catholics schools before Vatican II.  Do your best to undo any possible damage, but, as long as the school is essentially Catholic, it's probably very good for the children overall.

    Sometimes the demand to have perfection for your children is the manifestation of ego, the need to feel like the perfect parents.  With all things human, there's rarely such a thing as perfection.  It's like the parents who get so tightly wound about organic food and their kids health that they have a veritable melt-down if a child were to consume a piece of candy given by a friend.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #9 on: August 13, 2019, 01:07:08 PM »
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  • Well, despite its shortcoming, many people would give almost anything to have the opportunity to send their kids to such a school.  If there are slight corrections you need to make at home, you're in a position to do so.  It almost sounds like you're scrupulous and demanding perfection.  I've seen it happen that parents increasingly isolate their children, to the point of being neurotic, to the point that the children get the impression that your family thinks that they are more Catholic even than the strict Traditional Catholics.  And they plot the entire time to break away the minute they have the opportunity.  You could likely have found worse flaws in the mainstream Catholics schools before Vatican II.  Do your best to undo any possible damage, but, as long as the school is essentially Catholic, it's probably very good for the children overall.

    Sometimes the demand to have perfection for your children is the manifestation of ego, the need to feel like the perfect parents.  With all things human, there's rarely such a thing as perfection.  It's like the parents who get so tightly wound about organic food and their kids health that they have a veritable melt-down if a child were to consume a piece of candy given by a friend.
    You speak of “the Traditional Catholics” as though you yourself are not one.
    That probably explains why your response leaves the ralliement of the SSPX out of consideration.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #10 on: August 13, 2019, 02:37:25 PM »
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  • Well, despite its shortcoming, many people would give almost anything to have the opportunity to send their kids to such a school.  If there are slight corrections you need to make at home, you're in a position to do so.  It almost sounds like you're scrupulous and demanding perfection.  I've seen it happen that parents increasingly isolate their children, to the point of being neurotic, to the point that the children get the impression that your family thinks that they are more Catholic even than the strict Traditional Catholics.  And they plot the entire time to break away the minute they have the opportunity.  You could likely have found worse flaws in the mainstream Catholics schools before Vatican II.  Do your best to undo any possible damage, but, as long as the school is essentially Catholic, it's probably very good for the children overall.

    Sometimes the demand to have perfection for your children is the manifestation of ego, the need to feel like the perfect parents.  With all things human, there's rarely such a thing as perfection.  It's like the parents who get so tightly wound about organic food and their kids health that they have a veritable melt-down if a child were to consume a piece of candy given by a friend.
    I didn't get the impression he was talking about imperfections at the school as the reason for leaving, but a problem of trust (with the SSPX generally, and the teachers going against his will in particular).


    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #11 on: August 13, 2019, 05:36:42 PM »
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  • OP’s children should be able to pray the Mass instead of being forced to be mechanical as agreed before enrollment. You need to send a letter to teachers about the agreement or if that doesn’t work then have a face to face meeting with teachers   The teachers should be more concerned with students who don’t their prayers or who are misbehaving during Mass.  Are these lay teachers or religious sisters?

    If the school had non Catholic students, they would be setting aside separate prayer rooms and times to accommodate  those who follow false religion. 

    Pre Vatican II, when Catholic schools were “Catholic”, religious sister taught and schools didn’t cost much.  Things changed when schools starting taking non Catholics then Catholic schools got greedy.  














    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #12 on: August 13, 2019, 08:06:27 PM »
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  • When teachers act in direct opposition to your requests, it’s time to meet with the administration and school board.  But keep in mind you don’t run the school.  If you do not agree with school policy, it is time to withdraw your children and make whatever sacrifice is necessary to educate them yourself.  As a teacher, it is unfair to expect a teacher to disobey school policy.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #13 on: August 13, 2019, 08:30:32 PM »
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  • If the school had non Catholic students, they would be setting aside separate prayer rooms and times to accommodate  those who follow false religion.

    At an SSPX school?

    Anonymous

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    Re: Pressuring kids to say dialogue mass
    « Reply #14 on: August 13, 2019, 09:19:42 PM »
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  • When teachers act in direct opposition to your requests, it’s time to meet with the administration and school board.  But keep in mind you don’t run the school.  If you do not agree with school policy, it is time to withdraw your children and make whatever sacrifice is necessary to educate them yourself.  As a teacher, it is unfair to expect a teacher to disobey school policy.

    Right, there really are limits for how much a school need to conform to the individual requests of parents.  There has to be a certain uniformity, or it becomes impossible to manage.

     

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