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Author Topic: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki  (Read 8507 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2023, 08:43:32 AM »
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  • Of course, the SAJM link is there, Non Possumus is associated with SAJM (just look at the big header at the top), but why no more link to Bishop Williamson's St . Marcel Initiative and no more link to Respice Stellam?

    That's a good question. You can always send an email to the website (does the Non-Possumus site belong to Fr. Trincado - I'm not sure), and ask about it.

    Non-Possumus also no longer has a link to Cathinfo, like it used to. 

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #46 on: July 21, 2023, 10:24:23 AM »
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  • As a Sede, I'm praying that developments like this lead to further unity among sincere Catholics trying to preserve the true faith. That has been the biggest impediment to moving souls away from the NO since the time of V2. Decent Catholics in the Concilliar Church that dislike the modernism plaguing the counter-church look at Traddiland and see all of these factions, divisions, splinters, etc. If they become awake to the problems of the NO and go to seek the TLM, they're faced with nothing but disunity and camps of warring tribes. SSPX vs Resistance vs SSPV vs SGG vs CMRI vs countless other independent splinter groups. It's both confusing and disheartening, and would drive many of those souls back into the arms of the "Traditionalists" within the Concilliar Church. 

    At this point, the Resistance operates and appears objectively like Sedes. The only difference is that they call Bergolio the Holy Father and pray for him. Btw, out of charity, many Sedes pray for Kosher Frank too, but cannot bring themselves to call that man the Holy Father or to "recognize" him as such. And that is the only distinction between our camps. How much division and splintering has already taken place since the Resistance was established? How many consecrations done without any regard whatsoever to the man they call Holy Father? Now happening in secret as well. Please understand that I'm not saying this to malign the Resistance at all. I very much like Bp Williamson and have benefitted from countless hours of his sermons, conferences, and Seminary lectures on various streaming platforms. I think that he is a very good and holy shepherd that has the best intentions for his flocks and is doing the best that he can to provide valid Priests, valid Sacraments, and the Mass of all ages to the faithful in this time of crisis. However, as a result of him having to do that, he has set himself up for the same criticisms that have been levied against Sede Bishops for years now. Who's to say that in 30 years time, if we're still suffering through this crisis, that branches from the Bp Williamson tree have produced thorns or bad fruit. Would that result in him being smeared and maligned as "mentally unstable" the way that Abp Thuc is? I hope not. I think that would be an unfair judgement against a good man, doing his best to navigate uncharted waters.

    Anyway, my main point is that this factioning and division is the natural result of the Great Apostacy in which we live. The plot of the enemies of Our Lord to strike the shepherd and scatter the sheep has been very effective. And we would do well to begin to work together more. To stop focusing on who is correct about the exact solution, and dividing ourselves under the banners of our opinions, and to pray together for unity. Imagine if all of the tribes of Traddiland could come together and work out what we can agree on, and for the sake of the faithful, set aside those things that we cannot agree on because they have not been authoritatively revealed in a way that clearly settles the matter, and become truly united in a common purpose to save the beautiful Catholic faith handed down to us through the ages. That would be much more appealing to the many lost souls trapped in the NO and looking for the faith of our fathers.

    For the record, I'm not proposing some kind of Council, in the strict sense. Obviously our priests and Bishops lack the jurisdiction to "settle" anything. I'm simply stating that cooperative meetings where common ground can be found to minimize the confusion and scandal of the faithful. I know, it's a pipe dream, but I like to think about how nice it would be to spend less time sifting through the endless debates of R&R vs Totalism vs Sedeprivationism vs Sedeimpoundism, etc. It's so sad to see such heated conflict between people that agree on 99.8% of what's going on. I avoid weighing in on those threads, and often have to stop reading them as there is so little charity there, and too many accusations of heresy, etc. Perhaps as time goes on, Resistance people will look at the current landscape of their movement, and be less harsh and judgmental towards Sedes. I will be praying for these new Bishops, and for the the faithful that they lead. May we all keep the faith in these terrible days that we live.


    Offline Sylvanus Rinaldo

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #47 on: July 21, 2023, 10:46:13 AM »
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  • The above post was me. Sorry, I forgot to check the box. Wasn't intending to post anonymously.
    Matthew 10: 38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #48 on: July 21, 2023, 10:54:45 AM »
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  • At this point, the Resistance operates and appears objectively like Sedes. The only difference is that they call Bergolio the Holy Father and pray for him.

    Yes, that's the difference, but it's a huge difference. If it weren't a huge difference, would sedes be continually pushing for all trads to be sedes? We have to spend valuable time defending our R&R position. It gets tiresome, but it also serves to remind of of why we believe what we do.

    It would be nice if all trads could be unified, but I don't see that ever happening.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #49 on: July 21, 2023, 11:14:14 AM »
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  • As a Sede, I'm praying that developments like this lead to further unity among sincere Catholics trying to preserve the true faith....

    Anyway, my main point is that this factioning and division is the natural result of the Great Apostacy in which we live. ...
    For the record, I'm not proposing some kind of Council, in the strict sense. Obviously our priests and Bishops lack the jurisdiction to "settle" anything. I'm simply stating that cooperative meetings where common ground can be found to minimize the confusion and scandal of the faithful. I know, it's a pipe dream, but I like to think about how nice it would be to spend less time sifting through the endless debates of R&R vs Totalism vs Sedeprivationism vs Sedeimpoundism, etc. ...
    What do you envision on a practical level among the groups? What type of cooperation do you see would you expect to see?

    I have SSPX, SAJM, SV, "Hewkonian" and "Pfiferite" groups nearby and the priest for each groups says to stay away from all other groups. Thus I do not foresee any type of cooperation coming from the priests. 


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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #50 on: July 21, 2023, 11:22:48 AM »
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  • Yes, that's the difference, but it's a huge difference. If it weren't a huge difference, would sedes be continually pushing for all trads to be sedes? We have to spend valuable time defending our R&R position. It gets tiresome, but it also serves to remind of of why we believe what we do.

    It would be nice if all trads could be unified, but I don't see that ever happening.
    As far as I know we have never met in real life but from your posts, some of which I agree with by the way, I sincerely question if you are even capable of living in peace with anyone. I'm genuinely sorry to be so harsh but I think that you do more than your share of driving trads further apart.

    Offline Horatius

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #51 on: July 21, 2023, 11:23:05 AM »
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  • Two things that I'm starting to sense:

    1) The SAJM portion of the resistance is drifting away from BP. Williamson because of his constant support for people whom the SAJM deems "independent." The more BP. Williamson shares the episcopate with the so-labelled "independent" priests, the further the SAJM will drift away from him. This simply because it shatters the convenient sacramental monopoly that the SAJM enjoyed until not too long ago(understanding, of course, that BP. Tomas acts virtually as a member of THE SAJM). It will be interesting to see whether or not factions in the resistance develop if BP. Williamson were in fact to have consecrated more men secretly than we are aware of. Was it not pronounced recently in a public sermon of am SAJM bishop that secret things come from the devil? It was quite clear from the context what was being referred to sotto voce. 

    2) How beneficial it has been, in fact, for the resistance to be de-centralized. The centralization of authority in the hands of a few clerics makes it easy for the entire institution to be subverted, as is evidenced by the direction of the SSPX. And have not certain elements of the resistance already evinced themselves as liberal by adopting a laxist position on the reception of abortifacient vaccines, allowing seminarians to assist at masses of the SSPX, or by encouraging the youth to study in the SSPX centers of Higher education?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #52 on: July 21, 2023, 11:35:57 AM »
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  • As far as I know we have never met in real life but from your posts, some of which I agree with by the way, I sincerely question if you are even capable of living in peace with anyone. I'm genuinely sorry to be so harsh but I think that you do more than your share of driving trads further apart.
    Could it be that your problem with me is that I defend my R&R position a little too strongly for your taste?

    I've been a forum member for may years, and have had to defend my position countless times. I don't think that you are harsh at all. Many sedes are far, far, harsher.
    In fact, you seem quite good and charitable in comparison.

    I don't fault anyone for taking the sede position. It's understandable, given the horrible errors/heresies of Francis and all of the conciliar popes. What I have a problem with is sedes continually saying that our position is absolutely wrong.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Sylvanus Rinaldo

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #53 on: July 21, 2023, 11:53:59 AM »
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  • For the record, that was not me calling you harsh. I found nothing uncharitable in your comment. And I admire the zeal with which many defend their positions. Convictions are a good thing.

    I agree that the distinction is important. Of course it is. I just don't believe we will be able to solve it without assistance from Almighty God. Although I personally hold to the position that the seat is vacant, I do not believe that one must believe that in order to merit salvation. I believe that ABL was a good and holy man. I believe that priests and Bishops coming from his line are valid priests, and that they confect valid sacraments. I believe that there are many good and faithful Catholics that hold to the R&R position out of love and honor for God, and a sincere heart of obedience and devotion. 

    Personally, I worry about the direction the SSPX has taken gradually in the years since ABL's death (may he rest in peace). Especially with regard to taking in priests that were trained in NO seminaries, ordained in the new rite, and defected to SSPX, then perhaps not conditionally re-ordained as ABL would have had done to remove any doubt about their validity and sacraments for the faithful. I have family, as does my wife that attend SSPX chapels, and I pray for them regularly.
    Matthew 10: 38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #54 on: July 21, 2023, 11:58:48 AM »
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  • As most of us do not have the luxury of having access to more than one Traditional Mass centre that has validly ordained priests, on the practical level, one has to go with one has access.

    The neoSSPX mission chapel I attend is my only option. Thankfully thus far, it has not reached the point where attendance would no longer be possible. We are far removed from the upper echelons of power so little crap flows down to us normally. There are definite points of contention i.e. Dialogue Mass, although not every Mass attendee participates. It is the attendees, former and active, from the FSSP that are doing the responses. Since the priests go along with this trend, this problem wont get fixed.

    Canada only has one Resistance priest, and although he has a home chapel, his apostolate has taken a greater missionary aspect. He flies to places where there are TradCaths, who do not have any access to a Mass.

    No independent or Sede priests out here in the west either. 

    Despite the divisions amongst us Trad Catholics, let use the opportunity to deepen our practice of the virtue of charity. :pray::pray::pray::pray:

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #55 on: July 21, 2023, 12:00:10 PM »
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  • The above post is from ole Kaz the Polish bear :cowboy:
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #56 on: July 22, 2023, 04:09:48 AM »
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  • ...... How beneficial it has been, in fact, for the resistance to be de-centralized. The centralization of authority in the hands of a few clerics makes it easy for the entire institution to be subverted, as is evidenced by the direction of the SSPX.....
    True. Especially the American driven Asia direction of the SSPX .....

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #57 on: July 22, 2023, 07:10:50 AM »
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  • The constitution of the Church is hierarchical, and this is of divine positive law.

    A priest or bishop finding himself independent because he got kicked out of his liberal congregation is one thing, but ordaining and consecrating priests and bishops to be independent quite another.  

    It’s the protestantization of tradition, and against the Church.

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #58 on: July 22, 2023, 08:07:46 AM »
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  • The constitution of the Church is hierarchical, and this is of divine positive law.

    A priest or bishop finding himself independent because he got kicked out of his liberal congregation is one thing, but ordaining and consecrating priests and bishops to be independent quite another. 

    It’s the protestantization of tradition, and against the Church.

    I'm fairly certain that St. Athanasius ordained priests when he was exiled from the Church. I've seen docuмentation of it. They weren't a part of the mostly Arain Church, and St. Athanasius wasn't a part of any fraternity or order. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Picture of Bishop Williamson and Bishop Michal Stobnicki
    « Reply #59 on: July 22, 2023, 09:16:40 AM »
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  • The constitution of the Church is hierarchical, and this is of divine positive law.

    A priest or bishop finding himself independent because he got kicked out of his liberal congregation is one thing, but ordaining and consecrating priests and bishops to be independent quite another. 

    It’s the protestantization of tradition, and against the Church.

    No, having some artificial structure is not the same as a bishop or priest not being "independent".  Anyone who isn't in submission to the Catholic hierarchy is "independent" in these terms, regardless of whether he belongs to the "Society of" this or the "Fraternity of" that.  Forming an organization would be for practical purposes only and would not be a solution to this problem.