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Author Topic: Usury?  (Read 503 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Usury?
« on: July 09, 2021, 01:39:27 PM »
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  • I just got a penny in interest from my savings account. In two years I have made 8 cents in interest! Am I guilty of the sin of usury? 


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #1 on: July 09, 2021, 02:47:20 PM »
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  • Yes.  Go to Confession.

    :laugh1:


    Offline jvk

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #2 on: July 09, 2021, 02:48:57 PM »
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  • Seriously?????

    Stop abusing this sub-forum with your scruples!

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #3 on: July 09, 2021, 03:00:48 PM »
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  • Yes.  Go to Confession.

    :laugh1:
    Do I have to make restitution?

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #4 on: July 09, 2021, 03:30:29 PM »
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  • get off the forum and go to confession cryptinox


    Offline Romulus

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #5 on: July 09, 2021, 06:04:19 PM »
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  • BROTHER YOU MUST TESTIFY!! BEG FOR FORGIVENESS BEFORE ITS TOO LATE AND THE RAPTURE LIFTS YOU INTO YOUR HEAVENLY ABODE!!!!

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #6 on: July 09, 2021, 09:15:16 PM »
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  • Anathema.

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #7 on: July 09, 2021, 09:18:26 PM »
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  • 8 cents of interest over 2 years?  You must have close to $100k in that savings account.

    :laugh2:



    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #8 on: July 09, 2021, 10:01:02 PM »
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  • get off the forum and go to confession cryptinox

    Probably just a troll.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #9 on: July 10, 2021, 09:52:49 AM »
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  • 8 cents of interest over 2 years?  You must have close to $100k in that savings account.

    :laugh2:
    That is a gasser!  Thanks for making me smile this morning.

    Seriously, though...

    The last thing I want to do, is to feed anyone's scrupulosity, but here's a real dilemma for me.  Usury is the one issue in moral theology at which I am totally at loggerheads with myself.  On the one hand, I can't comprehend how it could be morally acceptable, since the Church once taught against it, but on the other hand, pace Aquinas et al, how is it, that money is the one thing you can't "rent"?  You can rent a chainsaw, you can rent a backhoe, you can rent a car, you can rent an apartment, but the one thing you can't "rent" is money?  Either way, you're giving back what you borrowed, and paying rent for the use of the thing. ("Rent on money" is how I explain interest to my son in our business math class --- individual lenders "rent" their money to the bank at a low rate, the bank then "rents out" that money to borrowers at a higher rate, and the spread is how the bank makes its money.  Having been burned by banks, and my father having been burned likewise, I teach him never to do business with a bank, but go to a credit union instead.  I have been using a CU for years now, with no regrets.)

    Talk to me like I'm five.  Talk to me like I'm Forrest Gump.  Why is money the one thing you can't "rent"?  On the other hand, how could the Church teach that collecting money on interest is sinful, then teach that it is not sinful?  (I refer here to any interest at all, not just the "biting" interest that even today is thought of as "usurious"?  My understanding is that the Church once condemned all interest as sinful, even the moderate rates of 3-4% that we see today in home and car loans.)  This gives foes of traditional Catholic moral theology something they can drive big trucks through, as they opine that teaching on contraception, divorce, and even ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ activity could change.  If the Church has changed her teaching on collecting interest, how do we explain that?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #10 on: July 10, 2021, 10:21:03 AM »
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    I just got a penny in interest from my savings account. In two years I have made 8 cents in interest! Am I guilty of the sin of usury?

    Yes, but more than that -- you are Lost. You will be among the damned.

    But not for making 8 cents in usury -- because you were trolling CathInfo and abusing the Anon forum.

    ::)
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #11 on: July 10, 2021, 10:27:48 AM »
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  • Incidentally, I settle this doubt in favor of liberty, i.e., I shall collect interest until it is proven to me that I should not, and unless and until it is proven to me that the practice of even the pre-Vatican II Church is wrong (which isn't going to happen).  I just don't get the arguments in either direction, that's all.

    I refer only to commercial loans.  Within the family, we have always loaned and borrowed money interest-free.  We have always been a family that helped one another, those who have more, help those who have less, and that is a dynamic that can change with the passage of time and the aging of generations.  Many is the time I have seen my father just outright give money to poor relatives, if they needed it, or with the provision that "you can just pay me back when (and if) you're able".  My uncle was a very prosperous businessman, he was into a little bit of everything, and he helped his parents and siblings when they needed it. When he died, his son inherited the family farm.  Nobody even began to begrudge this.

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #12 on: July 10, 2021, 10:46:43 AM »
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  • Talk to me like I'm five.  Talk to me like I'm Forrest Gump.  Why is money the one thing you can't "rent"?  

    Because, unlike the chainsaw example you provided, one can simply give back the chainsaw if the rent becomes too much of a burden.  Can't really do that with (fiat) money because oftentimes it was borrowed to pay off / purchase something else; something which the lender could care less to get in return.  Today you have people in (literal) slavery because of borrowing and interest (and sometimes interest on interest).

    Recall also that with modern fiat currency based upon fractional reserve banking, money kept in a savings account is losing value due to inflation.  In the past 10 - 15 years, I do not think that there has been a savings account or CD which has kept ahead of inflation.   In his book Barren Metals, E. Michael Jones makes a good case that the interest profited from said accounts isn't usury because it is still losing value over the long run.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #13 on: July 10, 2021, 11:03:33 AM »
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  • Yes, but more than that -- you are Lost. You will be among the damned.

    But not for making 8 cents in usury -- because you were trolling CathInfo and abusing the Anon forum.

    ::)
    I was just making a joke. I thought maybe it would be funny to joke about it when I read my bank statement and found out I made another penny in interest.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Usury?
    « Reply #14 on: July 10, 2021, 11:09:47 AM »
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  • Because, unlike the chainsaw example you provided, one can simply give back the chainsaw if the rent becomes too much of a burden.  Can't really do that with (fiat) money because oftentimes it was borrowed to pay off / purchase something else; something which the lender could care less to get in return.  Today you have people in (literal) slavery because of borrowing and interest (and sometimes interest on interest).

    Recall also that with modern fiat currency based upon fractional reserve banking, money kept in a savings account is losing value due to inflation.  In the past 10 - 15 years, I do not think that there has been a savings account or CD which has kept ahead of inflation.   In his book Barren Metals, E. Michael Jones makes a good case that the interest profited from said accounts isn't usury because it is still losing value over the long run.
    You make a good point here.  However, in the case of having borrowed money to buy a car or a home, if you go delinquent on the loan, the lender can always just take the car or the home back.  Many other types of loans require collateral, so that if the borrower can't repay the loan, they forfeit the collateral.

    Unsecured loans, or loans for which there is no security or collateral at issue --- how do you give back a college education, or for that matter, something that ceases to be once you've used it (a vacation, or even food)? --- yep, that's a problem.

    Best not to go into debt for things where you can't either give back the secured property or the collateral.  Now that is debt slavery.

    But why is it, that the Church once taught that any usury whatsoever is sinful, whereas now, usury rising to the level of sinfulness (i.e., exorbitant interest) only exists when the obligation exceeds what is commonly perceived as just?  Again, talk to me like I'm five.

    The only thing that remotely makes sense to me, is that in the era prior to the existence of fiat money, there were only so many ducats, or shillings, or what have you, in existence, and you are having to pay with something that you don't have, something about money once not having been fecund, and in modern times, it is fecund.  Money no longer has intrinsic value, but rather, it is created by fiat, supposedly to reflect the value of labor, goods, and services in the economy, and to facilitate trading and store the value of these tangibles and intangibles --- in other words, if I have a dozen eggs to sell for a dollar, I don't have to go out and seek someone who has something I want, that is worth a dollar.  The dollar acts as a kind of "credit" to help the two transactions "slide past one another" without necessitating barter. 

    I supposedly have a degree in this kind of thing, but again, I still just don't get it either way.