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Author Topic: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?  (Read 14772 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
« on: June 14, 2022, 09:05:26 PM »
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  • I have given some thought on starting a thread about this, but I do not want it to be misleading. Adults who have been married for over ten years should give their insight. Bigger parishes are bit of an issue because more gossip, more bias, more competition. Everyone attempts to be like everyone else; young ladies tend to dress to impress with their floral dresses and high heels, and plastered faces, which a priest has said “women tend to do, in order to find a husband. That is not a proper approach to matrimony.” Why do young girls appear to be petty and unfriendly when it comes to finding a husband, and why do men appear to be aggressive when having girls present? It seems to be getting out of hand. I have seen matchmaking happen in parishes, and that is really the downfall for an unhappy marriage on the price of matchmaking from the start. This is not why God instituted the Sacrament, and it is not to be meddled with. Marriage is not play time, but do these young people know this? Such a rush into things might explain that chastity is not in order. Priests have no choice but to witness the marriage of a young couple, in which the bride had become pregnant. 

    Once young people graduate from traditional schools, they immediately begin to date. These unchaste courtships have lead to passionate kissing; to the touching of thighs; to late hours out together and even in apartments. Bigger parishes more the gossip. Where are the chaperones? Where is the purity being put into practice? We are not talking about fallen human nature here. Indeed it plays a part, but has marriage become a trend? Catholics should behave better than the person down the street who has multiple partners. It is only natural to marry, but among our sons and daughters, how natural is it to them? Do they wish to marry well or must they marry because all their friends are, and because the whole parish is doing it? This is quite serious.  

    Where are the priestly and Religious vocations? There are none, because everyone wants to marry. If there were any, the selfishness of the individual prevented it. In Vocations written by a pre-Vatican II priest states, “Once in a vocation, always in it”. He goes on to say that if one deliberately chose to enter a state in life or attempt a vocation (which they knew was not for them), but did it out of selfish motives, it is too late. He gave an example that if a man chose to become priest purely to provide for himself, it is too late. This does not mean God will not provide the graces, because He does. Another priest commented on so many young people marrying that “If they had just waited, a possible higher calling would have revealed itself.” 

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #1 on: June 14, 2022, 09:52:31 PM »
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  • Nothing good comes from condemning others.  Worry about yourself.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #2 on: June 14, 2022, 10:45:15 PM »
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  • Marriage is a far more attractive proposition than it used to be, and therefore, if there is a religious vocation, it gets drowned out by the various things that are perceived to be appealing about modern marriage.  (I said "if there is..." --- it's possible, in our faithless age, that Almighty God is simply not calling these people.  I won't dogmatize either way.  That's out of my wheelhouse.)

    Before the modern era, marriage for a Catholic meant entering into a union where, even with use of the "rhythm method", more children would come than would be desired or convenient.  The man would have to work hard all of his life, possibly even dying young due to work-related injury or illness (my own grandfather, who was not Catholic, died young for that very reason, and it is highly unlikely that my grandparents "used anything").  The woman would have a very hard life of raising all those children, having more pregnancies than she would have preferred, and would have to put massive amounts of effort into maintaining a home and large family.  Moreover, divorce was impossible --- if the marriage went sour, you were stuck.  Looking at it this way --- and, as I mentioned in another recent posting, you then get this blubbering from "Novus Ordo Puritans" that "oh, no, no, a vocation has to be pure, it has to be solely from the highest motives" --- the priesthood or religious life doesn't look so bad.  You get an education, you get a career, you have lifetime job security, your work isn't herculean, really, aside from having to give up sɛҳuąƖ relations --- let's just call it like it is --- it's really a pretty sweet, fairly easy life.  And if those sɛҳuąƖ relations --- again, let's just call it like it is --- are going to get you in all that trouble, make your life so difficult, maybe it's easier just to turn off that aspect of your life, and be done with it.

    But now you have an entirely different marriage paradigm.  You get to have one, two, three kids tops, basically, you can order children like you order pizzas, you have them when you want to and not a moment sooner, and when you're done, one or the other "gets fixed", says "I've been blessed, I'm done having kids", and it's sex on demand for life without consequences.  One big party!  And if the marriage goes south?  Easy peasy, get the divorce, start "dating" again (in the secular world and the world of cafeteria religionists, premarital chastity is unknown, it's pretty much sex by the third date, fifth or sixth "if you have good morals"), usually end up moving in with one another, lather, rinse, repeat.  Marriage ends up being pretty much one big date and one endless good time, with a fun-sized family, or if you don't want kids at all, hey, that's okay too, just enjoy one another.  You can go to Mass (the Novus Ordo), receive communion, either never go to confession, or go and don't bring up the contraception thing --- you'll probably never be asked --- fun, fun, fun, rockin' in the free world!  When you can have a life like that, then a priestly or religious vocation is going to be absolutely, positively, the last thing you would ever think about.

    I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #3 on: June 14, 2022, 11:18:43 PM »
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  • Marriage is a far more attractive proposition than it used to be, and therefore, if there is a religious vocation, it gets drowned out by the various things that are perceived to be appealing about modern marriage.  (I said "if there is..." --- it's possible, in our faithless age, that Almighty God is simply not calling these people.  I won't dogmatize either way.  That's out of my wheelhouse.)

    Before the modern era, marriage for a Catholic meant entering into a union where, even with use of the "rhythm method", more children would come than would be desired or convenient.  The man would have to work hard all of his life, possibly even dying young due to work-related injury or illness (my own grandfather, who was not Catholic, died young for that very reason, and it is highly unlikely that my grandparents "used anything").  The woman would have a very hard life of raising all those children, having more pregnancies than she would have preferred, and would have to put massive amounts of effort into maintaining a home and large family.  Moreover, divorce was impossible --- if the marriage went sour, you were stuck.  Looking at it this way --- and, as I mentioned in another recent posting, you then get this blubbering from "Novus Ordo Puritans" that "oh, no, no, a vocation has to be pure, it has to be solely from the highest motives" --- the priesthood or religious life doesn't look so bad.  You get an education, you get a career, you have lifetime job security, your work isn't herculean, really, aside from having to give up sɛҳuąƖ relations --- let's just call it like it is --- it's really a pretty sweet, fairly easy life.  And if those sɛҳuąƖ relations --- again, let's just call it like it is --- are going to get you in all that trouble, make your life so difficult, maybe it's easier just to turn off that aspect of your life, and be done with it.

    But now you have an entirely different marriage paradigm.  You get to have one, two, three kids tops, basically, you can order children like you order pizzas, you have them when you want to and not a moment sooner, and when you're done, one or the other "gets fixed", says "I've been blessed, I'm done having kids", and it's sex on demand for life without consequences.  One big party!  And if the marriage goes south?  Easy peasy, get the divorce, start "dating" again (in the secular world and the world of cafeteria religionists, premarital chastity is unknown, it's pretty much sex by the third date, fifth or sixth "if you have good morals"), usually end up moving in with one another, lather, rinse, repeat.  Marriage ends up being pretty much one big date and one endless good time, with a fun-sized family, or if you don't want kids at all, hey, that's okay too, just enjoy one another.  You can go to Mass (the Novus Ordo), receive communion, either never go to confession, or go and don't bring up the contraception thing --- you'll probably never be asked --- fun, fun, fun, rockin' in the free world!  When you can have a life like that, then a priestly or religious vocation is going to be absolutely, positively, the last thing you would ever think about.

    I don't think it's any more complicated than that.
    Simple explanation from a SimpleMan! A+ post
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #4 on: June 15, 2022, 01:03:14 AM »
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  • OP, how long have you been married ?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Sefa

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #5 on: June 15, 2022, 03:06:10 AM »
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  • I have given some thought on starting a thread about this, but I do not want it to be misleading. Adults who have been married for over ten years should give their insight. Bigger parishes are bit of an issue because more gossip, more bias, more competition. Everyone attempts to be like everyone else; young ladies tend to dress to impress with their floral dresses and high heels, and plastered faces, which a priest has said “women tend to do, in order to find a husband. That is not a proper approach to matrimony.” Why do young girls appear to be petty and unfriendly when it comes to finding a husband, and why do men appear to be aggressive when having girls present? It seems to be getting out of hand. I have seen matchmaking happen in parishes, and that is really the downfall for an unhappy marriage on the price of matchmaking from the start. This is not why God instituted the Sacrament, and it is not to be meddled with. Marriage is not play time, but do these young people know this? Such a rush into things might explain that chastity is not in order. Priests have no choice but to witness the marriage of a young couple, in which the bride had become pregnant.

    Once young people graduate from traditional schools, they immediately begin to date. These unchaste courtships have lead to passionate kissing; to the touching of thighs; to late hours out together and even in apartments. Bigger parishes more the gossip. Where are the chaperones? Where is the purity being put into practice? We are not talking about fallen human nature here. Indeed it plays a part, but has marriage become a trend? Catholics should behave better than the person down the street who has multiple partners. It is only natural to marry, but among our sons and daughters, how natural is it to them? Do they wish to marry well or must they marry because all their friends are, and because the whole parish is doing it? This is quite serious. 

    Where are the priestly and Religious vocations? There are none, because everyone wants to marry. If there were any, the selfishness of the individual prevented it. In Vocations written by a pre-Vatican II priest states, “Once in a vocation, always in it”. He goes on to say that if one deliberately chose to enter a state in life or attempt a vocation (which they knew was not for them), but did it out of selfish motives, it is too late. He gave an example that if a man chose to become priest purely to provide for himself, it is too late. This does not mean God will not provide the graces, because He does. Another priest commented on so many young people marrying that “If they had just waited, a possible higher calling would have revealed itself.”
    I see the opposite as girls are marrying themselves more and more to big daddy government and relying on him for their subsistence, whilst men are despairing at being cucked by the NWO and becoming fat and effeminate.

    Thankfully by the wrath of God, soon both these issues will be solved by the vaccine die off, social collapse and food shortages that will follow. Remove yourself from Babylon, don't pray for it to keep trundling along devouring saints.

    Offline hansel

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #6 on: June 15, 2022, 10:19:29 AM »
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  • Marriage will probably always be the predominant vocation in any community or system; most people are called to salvation through that state. In that sense, marriage will always be a "trend". However, as SimpleMan indicated, the proportion of marriages to religious vocations could be skewed compared to earlier times, and this is due to modern changes/influences. From what I have seen, some of the large trad communities DO produce a certain number of religious vocations. However, the clergy of said communities often admit that they are not nearly as many as in pre-Vatican II times.

    That being said, rates, trends, and demographics of marriage in Traditional Catholic circles (SSPX, Resistance, SSPV etc. etc.) vary wildly depending on specific location and group. Marriages are common or increasing in some communities, and are practically absent in others.

    Many marriages do occur in larger traditionalist communities, and they usually occur at comparatively young ages by modern standards. The early marriage age can be due to a wide range of reasons, both good or bad, and obviously some have good or bad outcomes, but I think it can be influenced by the culture of a given geographical location. Many big trad communities (think the SSPX's St. Mary's KS or Walton KY) are located in the rural Midwest/South, where historically it seems more of a cultural convention for people to marry early. This is probably related to the agricultural past of these regions, where the young could/had to mature early due to responsibilities. Priests and traditionalist "academics" seem mixed in opinions about this; a few encourage the earlier marriage age; most are cautious on the grounds that many couples are not mature enough. Obviously this can be very much a case-by-case subject; a very mature 21 year old with the intent to discern and fulfill God's will is better equipped to make a big life decision than an immature 40 year old who only cares about worldly pleasure, and vice versa. The trend does influence the demographics of these big communities; since so many marry younger, it can much more difficult for some to marry slightly older (mid/late 20's onwards). Many in that slightly older age group find themselves in prolonged singlehood as they simply can't find someone as easily and are "out of the system" (school etc.). Perhaps fear of falling into that category further motivates many in these communities to marry young "while they can."

    This is very different than the situation in some smaller communities or "mission" chapels, where marriages can happen sparsely or never at all. Typically, mission chapels have a small and very asymmetric demographic. Each one is different, but the biggest age percentages in many are of the elderly (married and single), a decent number of middle-aged people (usually married), occasionally a few young very recently married couples, and maybe a few large established families with homeschoolers ranging from very young to their mid '20's. The children in these big families that reach marriage age may or may not align age-wise with those of the other families, and even if so the tiny "sample size" means less chances of compatibility of temperament etc. Depending on location, some of these chapels are very isolated, and it is harder to work in opportunities for the homeschoolers to interact with other larger groups of like-minded people. The result is that many of these young people remain single for a very long time, or even indefinitely, unless they very actively seek out their marriage vocation. In fact, some seem to reach a point where they discount marriage or religious life in their mid 20's or 30's, and dive into long college educations or very intense jobs that require 100% attention and energy at all times. Basically, they marry careers, some of which are more virtuous or charitable pursuits than others. While there is no doubt that some may be meant to be single or end up without a marriage/religious vocation due to various circuмstances, the numbers of single trads in these chapels who were/are not interested in religious life or marriage seems somewhat disproportionate.






    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #7 on: June 15, 2022, 11:08:02 AM »
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  • I have given some thought on starting a thread about this, but I do not want it to be misleading. Adults who have been married for over ten years should give their insight. Bigger parishes are bit of an issue because more gossip, more bias, more competition. Everyone attempts to be like everyone else; young ladies tend to dress to impress with their floral dresses and high heels, and plastered faces, which a priest has said “women tend to do, in order to find a husband. That is not a proper approach to matrimony.” Why do young girls appear to be petty and unfriendly when it comes to finding a husband, and why do men appear to be aggressive when having girls present? It seems to be getting out of hand. I have seen matchmaking happen in parishes, and that is really the downfall for an unhappy marriage on the price of matchmaking from the start. This is not why God instituted the Sacrament, and it is not to be meddled with. Marriage is not play time, but do these young people know this? Such a rush into things might explain that chastity is not in order. Priests have no choice but to witness the marriage of a young couple, in which the bride had become pregnant.

    Once young people graduate from traditional schools, they immediately begin to date. These unchaste courtships have lead to passionate kissing; to the touching of thighs; to late hours out together and even in apartments. Bigger parishes more the gossip. Where are the chaperones? Where is the purity being put into practice? We are not talking about fallen human nature here. Indeed it plays a part, but has marriage become a trend? Catholics should behave better than the person down the street who has multiple partners. It is only natural to marry, but among our sons and daughters, how natural is it to them? Do they wish to marry well or must they marry because all their friends are, and because the whole parish is doing it? This is quite serious. 

    Where are the priestly and Religious vocations? There are none, because everyone wants to marry. If there were any, the selfishness of the individual prevented it. In Vocations written by a pre-Vatican II priest states, “Once in a vocation, always in it”. He goes on to say that if one deliberately chose to enter a state in life or attempt a vocation (which they knew was not for them), but did it out of selfish motives, it is too late. He gave an example that if a man chose to become priest purely to provide for himself, it is too late. This does not mean God will not provide the graces, because He does. Another priest commented on so many young people marrying that “If they had just waited, a possible higher calling would have revealed itself.”
    I have found exactly the opposite.   Bigger congregation means I can be ignored.  Smaller congregations allow for more gossip.

    I have no problem with modest floral dresses, but nightgown dresses and hooker shoes and faces do not belong on a traditional Catholic.
    I see that the young men have not been taught properly, and are attracted to such women.  So, the women who want to get married seem to have to try to "outdo" eachother.  Maybe priests could have a young men's catechism once or twice a year, teaching them what to look for in a potential spouse.

    Maybe priests could also have a catechism once or twice a year on religious life.  One for men and one for women, to see if that is a path God chooses for them.

    Part of the problem i see with religious life for a traditional Catholic is where to go.  NO, FSSP, SSPX, Sanborn, resistance, independent?  Who will be around in 5 or 10 years to continue their vocation? 

    Also, why will no convent take widows or older women?  The SSPX cuts off at age 35.  When I was young, it was very common for widowed women with adult children to enter a convent.

    I can understand not wanting to take on older men in the sspx seminary, only because travel will wear out the older men, but why not allow them not to travel?  I mean, they take in how many first year candidates each year and how many drop out before the end?  I would think older men more likely to have thought deeply about it before entering and therefore less likely to drop out.


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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #8 on: June 15, 2022, 11:11:34 AM »
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  • Marriage is a far more attractive proposition than it used to be, and therefore, if there is a religious vocation, it gets drowned out by the various things that are perceived to be appealing about modern marriage.  (I said "if there is..." --- it's possible, in our faithless age, that Almighty God is simply not calling these people.  I won't dogmatize either way.  That's out of my wheelhouse.)

    Before the modern era, marriage for a Catholic meant entering into a union where, even with use of the "rhythm method", more children would come than would be desired or convenient.  The man would have to work hard all of his life, possibly even dying young due to work-related injury or illness (my own grandfather, who was not Catholic, died young for that very reason, and it is highly unlikely that my grandparents "used anything").  The woman would have a very hard life of raising all those children, having more pregnancies than she would have preferred, and would have to put massive amounts of effort into maintaining a home and large family.  Moreover, divorce was impossible --- if the marriage went sour, you were stuck.  Looking at it this way --- and, as I mentioned in another recent posting, you then get this blubbering from "Novus Ordo Puritans" that "oh, no, no, a vocation has to be pure, it has to be solely from the highest motives" --- the priesthood or religious life doesn't look so bad.  You get an education, you get a career, you have lifetime job security, your work isn't herculean, really, aside from having to give up sɛҳuąƖ relations --- let's just call it like it is --- it's really a pretty sweet, fairly easy life.  And if those sɛҳuąƖ relations --- again, let's just call it like it is --- are going to get you in all that trouble, make your life so difficult, maybe it's easier just to turn off that aspect of your life, and be done with it.

    But now you have an entirely different marriage paradigm.  You get to have one, two, three kids tops, basically, you can order children like you order pizzas, you have them when you want to and not a moment sooner, and when you're done, one or the other "gets fixed", says "I've been blessed, I'm done having kids", and it's sex on demand for life without consequences.  One big party!  And if the marriage goes south?  Easy peasy, get the divorce, start "dating" again (in the secular world and the world of cafeteria religionists, premarital chastity is unknown, it's pretty much sex by the third date, fifth or sixth "if you have good morals"), usually end up moving in with one another, lather, rinse, repeat.  Marriage ends up being pretty much one big date and one endless good time, with a fun-sized family, or if you don't want kids at all, hey, that's okay too, just enjoy one another.  You can go to Mass (the Novus Ordo), receive communion, either never go to confession, or go and don't bring up the contraception thing --- you'll probably never be asked --- fun, fun, fun, rockin' in the free world!  When you can have a life like that, then a priestly or religious vocation is going to be absolutely, positively, the last thing you would ever think about.

    I don't think it's any more complicated than that.
    Multiple marriages gets expensive, at least in community property states and states with alimony or spousal support.  More expensive if child support is required. 

    Also, unfortunately, marriages of the sspx, sede, resistance and independent can be annulled very easily.  I always encourage such marriages to be re-done, so to speak, at the FSSP or NO, just to make sure annulment is more difficult.

    Online Seraphina

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #9 on: June 15, 2022, 12:28:41 PM »
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  • In fact, some seem to reach a point where they discount marriage or religious life in their mid 20's or 30's, and dive into long college educations or very intense jobs that require 100% attention and energy at all times. Basically, they marry careers, some of which are more virtuous or charitable pursuits than others. While there is no doubt that some may be meant to be single or end up without a marriage/religious vocation due to various circuмstances, the numbers of single trads in these chapels who were/are not interested in religious life or marriage seems somewhat disproportionate.

    Hansel, what do you suggest for the adult who reaches his or her mid-20s through 40s and older, with neither religious vocation nor marriage prospect? With no education or training to be able to support him/herself?  If there is no need (or aptitude) for home care of elderly parents or younger siblings, the parents wish to enjoy their older years in a smaller home together, not living with an adult child child who, no matter how helpful around the house, lacks the skill and training to support him, or more likely, herself, is this good for anyone?  What about when the parents pass away?  Sure, maybe the house can be passed on, but can the single person support herself to continue living there after an entire lifetime?  Maybe a sibling or nephew can better use a large house for a family.  Then what has been the mission or purpose of the single old maid or geezer on the shelf?  IMO, a single life of service to others in the world, whether or not it involves university, is just the thing.  Just because a person, female especially, studies in university doesn’t mean she’s married to it!  If attendance at university is the goal of one’s earthly life, it will be unfulfilling whether male or female!  After all, does a young man “marry” seminary or a woman, the convent?  No, the goal is to stand in the stead of Christ or be married to the Church, the bride of Christ, for the salvation of souls.  The goal of all Catholics is to merit Heaven, regardless of his or earthly state of life, married, religious, single, etc.  
    I do agree that marriage is a problem for Catholics in today’s unnatural world and crisis in the Church.  Some, maybe many in the few large traditional chapels do rush into marriage too soon, before mature enough.  A sign of immaturity may well be seen in the manner of dress and behavior of young people.  (I’ve no idea what is wrong with floral print on female clothing!), but okay, hooker shoes, meaning extreme heels, ostentatious design, making the wearer walk in such a manner as to get others—young men—to look down at their legs, is unbecoming to a Catholic woman and a deliberate temptation to impure thoughts, not only to young single men, but to married men and the 92 year old man with the walker in the front aisle seat pew.  That’s probably not what you had in mind, but unless the man is blind, brain dead, or gαy, he WILL notice!  

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #10 on: June 15, 2022, 01:26:15 PM »
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  • P.S.  What is a “nightgown dress?” 
    I picture an immodest negligée type garment worn as outer clothing.

    What is wrong with floral print on female clothing? 
    This one I cannot begin to guess!


    A few more questions!

    You complain about and condemn young women’s and men’s conduct at church, ie. competition among girls with racy clothing, silly gossip, generally rowdy behavior before and after Mass.

    Why not ignore those whose behavior is unbecoming?  Surely there are better people with whom to converse.  And if not, go in the church and converse with your Lord and His Mother!


    You make statements regarding specific impure conduct in general when not in the public eye, or, at least, when not known to church people. 

    Are your remarks from direct observation, personal participation at one time, second or third hand accounts (gossip?), unfair presumption, rash judgement?  I find it hard to believe every single young adult in your chapel lives like this.  But if true, again, find better companions!  There are saints of all personalities, temperaments, and interests. Invite a one or small group to join you on a prayer walk, converse and request their intercession, not only for yourself but for those whose sinful conduct and attitude prevents you from having earthly companionship, finding a spouse, or your vocation in life.


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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #11 on: June 15, 2022, 02:09:31 PM »
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  • Hansel, what do you suggest for the adult who reaches his or her mid-20s through 40s and older, with neither religious vocation nor marriage prospect? With no education or training to be able to support him/herself?  If there is no need (or aptitude) for home care of elderly parents or younger siblings, the parents wish to enjoy their older years in a smaller home together, not living with an adult child child who, no matter how helpful around the house, lacks the skill and training to support him, or more likely, herself, is this good for anyone?  What about when the parents pass away?  Sure, maybe the house can be passed on, but can the single person support herself to continue living there after an entire lifetime?  Maybe a sibling or nephew can better use a large house for a family.  Then what has been the mission or purpose of the single old maid or geezer on the shelf?  IMO, a single life of service to others in the world, whether or not it involves university, is just the thing.  Just because a person, female especially, studies in university doesn’t mean she’s married to it!
    Hi Seraphina, let me clarify, I realize that point in the post was vague:

    1. In the post, I was not referring those who have clearly ruled-out marriage or religious life for very legitimate reasons (as you state). I was referencing one of two scenarios

     A. Those who legitimately had a worthy interest in pursuing marriage (or religious life). However, due to the small chapel dynamics/demographics I mentioned, they despair without fully ruling out the possibility and then try to replace the possible "vocation" with a career. The irony here is that they had (or still have) a chance to fully discern or even accomplish one of these two vocations, but they give up too soon and try to bury themselves in work to forget about it, sometimes due to worldly influences.  

    B. Those who never attempted to seriously discern any vocation. Sadly, this usually boils down to an underlying problem with formation etc. The result is that much like the modern world, there is no drive to accomplish salvation via discerning a specific state in life or vocation, and as as result these folks don't know what they want. They might be mildly interested in religion, or marriage, but never try to test that "vocation". They almost seem to expect a thunderbolt to strike and tell them what to do. When no thunderbolt comes, they conclude they never had a vocation to either state and move on.      

    2. In cases where marriage or religious life is completely not possible, or there is basically an indisputable "calling" to the single life as in all the very specific and valid examples you mention, I fully agree with you. Yes, at that point it is the best thing to get into a position of helping others, perhaps go to College, solidify education, develop interests, etc. Dr. Joseph Moscati is an example of that. What you describe is a very virtuous living of the single life, when all other options have been fully explored and determined not to be God's will. There are plenty of examples of saints or otherwise followed this pathway and lived full lives which greatly helped others. That is not what I was referring to in the post.   

    3. Doing what you say about career or education in the context you suggest is not what I would call being "married" to a career/education in my rubric. The career you suggest for a person who has determined the single life is for them is a means to an end to help others and oneself; there is a spiritual goal not just a material one. What I mean by being "married" to a career is to replace a vocation with a career. As an example, someone who legitimately has a vocation to religious life or marriage, but gives up without fully ruling out the possibility and tries to forget about it by throwing themselves into a career. Honestly, you see this a lot in the modern world. And I was referring equally to men as well as women. 


    The bottom line:  I am not saying anything against Catholics who definitively determine the single life to be their state.

    However, there probably are more Traditional Catholics that remain single nowadays in these chapels who would have been married in years past, just as there are more married people now who would have been religious in years past. And a contributing factor is the demographics; they just never meet each other due to the atomized modern world and the necessary isolation of many traditional venues. The solution: smaller chapels should figure out ways to have joint events with each other, or perhaps even institute organized, appropriate and properly supervised events for singles seriously seeking to determine marriage to meet one another. Traditional chapels by necessity are isolated from the modern world for protection against its errors, but they need not be isolated from each other. 

    Offline hansel

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #12 on: June 15, 2022, 02:12:38 PM »
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  • Last post was me, forgot to check the box.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #13 on: June 15, 2022, 02:38:46 PM »
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  • Also, unfortunately, marriages of the sspx, sede, resistance and independent can be annulled very easily.  I always encourage such marriages to be re-done, so to speak, at the FSSP or NO, just to make sure annulment is more difficult.
    .
    This is not true for sede chapels. They do not recognize marriage annulments unless it is a "lack of form" annulment, such as one in which a Catholic was "married" before a judge or in a protestant church. But a Catholic who is married in a Catholic or even Novus Ordo church is considered married to that spouse until they die, regardless of any annulment they may have subsequently received. I'm not aware of any sede chapel that would be an exception to this rule.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Parishes: Has Marriage become a trend?
    « Reply #14 on: June 15, 2022, 03:51:21 PM »
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  • .
    This is not true for sede chapels. They do not recognize marriage annulments unless it is a "lack of form" annulment, such as one in which a Catholic was "married" before a judge or in a protestant church. But a Catholic who is married in a Catholic or even Novus Ordo church is considered married to that spouse until they die, regardless of any annulment they may have subsequently received. I'm not aware of any sede chapel that would be an exception to this rule.
    So a sede accepts a NO marriage but not a NO annulment?  

    BTW, marriage by a sede priest would generally qualify as "Lack of form".