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Author Topic: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral  (Read 24709 times)

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Offline ihsv

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Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2019, 11:53:02 PM »
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  • ::)

    Yes, the concept is quite foreign to me, since I'm Catholic, and not a Puritan.

    I'm also a man, and I'd appreciate it, madam, if you'd stop trying to tell us men how to run our families.

    That was me
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #61 on: February 01, 2019, 01:34:39 AM »
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  • When I was growing up in the fifties it was unheard of for a husband to go into the delivery room with his wife. Did that make it better for her?

    I know that when my mother lost her daughter, stillborn, she was completely alone. They took MaryAnne away and my mother never saw her. It's best that way, was the wisdom then. My father was nowhere near to console her.

    I remember my own devastation, because I was longing for a sister in a home with 5 brothers. At 10 years old I did not think then of what my mother's devastation might be.

    I just cannot imagine giving birth without my husband being there to support me through the ordeal.

    So should husbands be present for the birth of their child? If at all possible, YES.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #62 on: February 01, 2019, 05:59:26 AM »
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  • My husband was at all my births other than one where they kicked him out due to an emergency situation. In hindsight, I would have preferred a midwife or doula throughout labour with my husband joining us immediately at the birth.  Even though my husband and I did a childbirth preparation course, this could not replace a skilled coach. 

    It was hard for my husband to see me in discomfort and unable to do anything about it.  He did not complain but I was aware of his distress and found it distracting. I would have preferred to focus on the birth process without worrying about him. 

    There is a lot of social pressure these days on husbands to attend birth. One encounters an attitude not being there means he is neglectful or unloving. I disagree with this pressure. Traditionally men did not attend and they don't really do anything that would not be done better by a trained female attendant.  It is better to have a husband there than for a woman to be alone or with strangers, but I do not think it is the ideal. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #63 on: February 01, 2019, 06:14:55 AM »
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  • When I was growing up in the fifties it was unheard of for a husband to go into the delivery room with his wife. Did that make it better for her?

    The fifties model of birth was terrible for many reasons: overuse of drugs, lack of support for breastfeeding, neglect of emotional aspects of birth, etc. To a large extent, the idea of husbands attending birth was a reaction to these problems.

    While introducing husbands was an improvement, the underlying problem is treating childbirth as a medical condition that requires hospitalization.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #64 on: February 01, 2019, 06:48:12 AM »
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  • St. Joseph was there with Mary.  I'll take that as a sign of God's approval.

    Since Mary visited Elizabeth 6 months before to support her, it would certainly have been possible for God to arrange a doula or midwife, (Elizabeth returning the favour why not?  Since God did not and left St. Joseph to clean up, then I will assume he is OK with husbands being present.
    St. Elizabeth was looking after her own 6 month old baby in another town.  Our Lady and St Joseph were alone away from home.

     I am not sure how much their example applies to us, since this was traditionally  believed not to be a normal birth. I don't think it is a matter of doctrine but Catholics thought Our Lady did not go through an ordeal of labour.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #65 on: February 01, 2019, 06:54:59 AM »
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  • Catholic husbands also used to wait OUTSIDE the room in the patriarchal society. If the concept is quite foreign to you is just because of Feminism. Nothing else.
    While I can't see a direct link to feminism, it is true enough that traditionally men were not present at birth.  Male doctors at births are a relatively recent development and husbands being present has only become usual within the last 50 years.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #66 on: February 01, 2019, 07:45:26 AM »
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  • Victorian times and before kept men out because it was tondistressing for them to witness 🙄🙄 or believed to be. It wasn’t for the woman’s comfort, or modesty. It was believed to much on men. I’d say that’s pretty early feminist thinking that a man can’t handle watching his own child be borne. 

    They also did it so the husband never saw his wife “untidy”. She was given time after birth to put on make up, comb her hair, and hide the blood. Husbands have just as much right to be in the room, as the woman giving birth. 

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #67 on: February 01, 2019, 07:52:05 AM »
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  • ::)

    Yes, the concept is quite foreign to me, since I'm Catholic, and not a Puritan.

    I'm also a man, and I'd appreciate it, madam, if you'd stop trying to tell us men how to run our families.
    ^^This. 
    I mean it’s stated over, and over again women shouldn’t tell men what to do. Now we have them saying they aren’t allowed to be in the rooms when their wives give birth. It’s not like they haven’t seen it all before... you got the baby only one way. 


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #68 on: February 01, 2019, 08:06:54 AM »
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  • Catholic husbands also used to wait OUTSIDE the room in the patriarchal society. If the concept is quite foreign to you is just because of Feminism. Nothing else.

    But why?  I'd like to get at the underlying principles.  I'm always looking for principles.  I'm not satisfied with the feminine "mystique" notion without further explanation.  Is it because the husband should not see a woman getting upset, angry, screaming, potentially throwing things?  I've heard stories where the wives would cuss out their husbands for being the cause of their pain.  Are you saying that men should perceive childbirth as something magical?  I doubt any men are not aware of the mechanics of how birth happens.  I'm not trying to fight, just wanting to understand WHY men used to wait outside.  Is it because some men only make things worse because they are nervous and agitated?  Not sure.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #69 on: February 01, 2019, 08:16:04 AM »
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  • It was hard for my husband to see me in discomfort and unable to do anything about it.  He did not complain but I was aware of his distress and found it distracting. I would have preferred to focus on the birth process without worrying about him.

    Well, wouldn't that depend on the man though?  I am an incredibly calm person and have been involved in some serious medical situations (one with my brother who broke his skull in a motorcycle accident, and I was by his side as he faded in and out of consciousness until the EMTs arrived).  If anything, I'm much more calm than my wife.  So is this some kind of principle or does it depend on the man?  Some men handle things better than others.

    And Our Lord on the cross undoubtedly deeply pained by the suffering of His Mother.  Should He have kicked her out because He didn't want to deal with it?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #70 on: February 01, 2019, 08:18:52 AM »
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  • They also did it so the husband never saw his wife “untidy”. She was given time after birth to put on make up, comb her hair, and hide the blood.

    :laugh1:  (for the bolded section)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #71 on: February 01, 2019, 09:42:21 AM »
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    I'm not trying to fight, just wanting to understand WHY men used to wait outside.  Is it because some men only make things worse because they are nervous and agitated?  Not sure.
    I don't know for sure, this is just a guess...I'm thinking that in former times, the men weren't part of the birth because wives didn't need their husbands for "birth support" because the family unit was larger and men just didn't get involved in these types of things.  Think about the 30s/40s in America - you had most families with 4+ children, and they all lived close to relatives (cousins, aunts, etc) and highschool friends (because people lived where they grew up).  And people got married earlier, so their aunts/grandparents were much, much younger than today.
     
    If a woman was expecting her first baby, chances are she was in her early 20s, and she had multiple female cousins, friends, aunts, a mother (in her mid 40s) and her granny (in her 60s) available for help, advice, and support both during the birth but also for the ENTIRE 9 months of the pregnancy.  Hospitals were also much more staffed than they are today, with there being multiple nuns/nurses everywhere to help a young mother during the delivery.

    Husbands were typically busy with other things during the pregnancy months; wives had plenty of help.  Guys just didn't get involved with such things because it wasn't a necessity like it is today, since the family unit is destroyed and couples/families are WAY more independent, isolated than in former times.  How many couples do you know who live 100s of miles away from their parents/siblings?  This is just isn't how a normal society operates and it's not how God designed things, but it's the world we live in...
     

    Offline jen51

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #72 on: February 01, 2019, 09:46:29 AM »
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  • My husband was at all my births other than one where they kicked him out due to an emergency situation. In hindsight, I would have preferred a midwife or doula throughout labour with my husband joining us immediately at the birth.  Even though my husband and I did a childbirth preparation course, this could not replace a skilled coach.

    It was hard for my husband to see me in discomfort and unable to do anything about it.  He did not complain but I was aware of his distress and found it distracting. I would have preferred to focus on the birth process without worrying about him.

    There is a lot of social pressure these days on husbands to attend birth. One encounters an attitude not being there means he is neglectful or unloving. I disagree with this pressure. Traditionally men did not attend and they don't really do anything that would not be done better by a trained female attendant.  It is better to have a husband there than for a woman to be alone or with strangers, but I do not think it is the ideal.
    Hi, Jayne! I was just thinking last night as I was reading this thread that I hoped you would chime in with your perspective.
    I agree with most of your post. Many men just do not handle the process well. Many men get so anxious about the situation that it only compounds the woman's distress. 
    The part that I disagree is the idea that the husband cannot do anything that a woman attendant cannot do. In regards to technical aspects this is almost always true, but during labor some women are in need of the loving companionship of their husband and will greatly benefit from it. While it wasn't ideal for you, it doesn't mean it is not ideal for others. 
    I cannot think of any moral grounds that a husband must be excluded during the birthing processs (but am open to considering any arguments if someone comes forth with some). If there is no moral reason, the decision should be left up to the discretion of the couple. I agree that there is too much pressure on men about it.
    I will say that my husband's stress in the situation does not do me any favors in the stress department, but the medical care for laboring mother's is pretty horrendous and oftentimes unethical and inhuman in this country and my husband insists on being there to ensure that my wishes are respected and that nothing terrible is done to me. I am thankful for this, especially during my first delivery in which much peril was avoided because of my husband's vigilent eye and fearlessness in regards to cranky/careless nurses and obstinate doctors with outdated practices and ethics. 
    Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
    ~James 1:27

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #73 on: February 01, 2019, 10:10:53 AM »
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  • So is this some kind of principle or does it depend on the man?  Some men handle things better than others.
    I wouldn't say it is a general principle that husbands should never be present, but it is not going to be best for every situation.

    Currently it is common for men to be treated like there is something wrong with them if they do not attend the birth. (And I could see this willingness for man bashing as due to feminism.) I would like more recognition that there can be good reasons for the husband to be absent.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #74 on: February 01, 2019, 10:17:05 AM »
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  • Victorian times and before kept men out because it was tondistressing for them to witness 🙄🙄 or believed to be. 
    Why the eye rolls?  This is a legitimate  concern.  I have been present while other women were in labour and found it far more difficult than giving birth myself.