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Author Topic: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral  (Read 21461 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
« Reply #150 on: February 04, 2019, 06:49:17 PM »
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  • Michael Odent also believes sex therapy should be used during child birth. How’s that for a woman’s dignity, Jayne?
    I think you misunderstood.  Michael Odent wrote a book about therapeutic uses of water.  One of these therapies is using water during labour and delivery, as in a birthing pool.  Another use for water he describes in the book is for sex therapy.  Did you see the review that said, "The book includes a practical section on the use of water during birth and in various therapies, particularly sex therapy."?  I can see how that might have confused you, but it does not mean sex therapy should be used during childbirth.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #151 on: February 04, 2019, 06:49:55 PM »
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  • There is no reason to think that it is common for men to "skip out because they have tickets to a playoff game."

    :facepalm:

    That was an illustration (by way of extreme example) regarding the principle that the WHY of why a husband skips is what indicates the nature of the action.

    For all your boasting about education and intelligence, you really do fall short when it comes to the application of logic.

    Despite your attempt to present the contrary, you really are an insufferable feminist.  I know who wears the pants in your household.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #152 on: February 04, 2019, 07:01:41 PM »
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  • You are in fact an advocate of the husband's RIGHT to use corporal punishment.  
    I am an advocate of judging the historic use and understanding of corporal punishment within its historical context.  I refuse to be drawn into yet another discussion of this. We have both made every possible point we have to make about it many times already.  

    I guess you felt in danger of losing the current argument so you wanted to change the subject.

    For all your boasting about education and intelligence, you really do fall short when it comes to the application of logic.

    Despite your attempt to present the contrary, you really are an insufferable feminist.  I know who wears the pants in your household.
    Yes, you have definitely given up on discussing the subject under debate.  You have, yet again, gone into full personal attack mode.

    Your lectures on logic would be far more compelling if you yourself were better at logic. Your tendency to rely on personal insults has no place in logical debate.  In that respect, at least, I am better at logic than you are.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #153 on: February 04, 2019, 07:07:08 PM »
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  • I am an advocate of judging the historic use and understanding of corporal punishment within its historical context.  I refuse to be drawn into yet another discussion of this.

    :laugh1:  You're running away because you can't refute the contradiction.  I am not about to discuss the particulars of that subject here, just the principle that if you can find one or more secular medical experts who hold an opinion about something, that overturns any "right" a husband might have over his wife, due to it being against "right reason".  Welcome to the feminist paradise.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #154 on: February 04, 2019, 07:13:57 PM »
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  • :laugh1:  You're running away because you can't refute the contradiction.  
    You can ask anybody; I never run out of ability to argue.  I have however run out of patience.   I find intellectual discussions fun and stimulating.  When it turns into nastiness and insults, it is not fun anymore.  I'm done.  Good night.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #155 on: February 04, 2019, 07:21:26 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, I’m not taking sides in this thread, but it’s unfair for a civil debate to bring into the discussion the topic of corporal punishment or any other topic.  One should be able to debate based on the facts at hand.      

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #156 on: February 04, 2019, 07:50:51 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, I’m not taking sides in this thread, but it’s unfair for a civil debate to bring into the discussion the topic of corporal punishment or any other topic.  One should be able to debate based on the facts at hand.      

    Pax, you're not quite following the reasoning here either.

    We're discussing a husband's rights, and the limits thereof.  In the case of fathers being present at childbirth, JayneK cited the opinion of one medical professional and claimed that, based on that one opinion, the father's rights are thereby contradicted.  That's a principle of argument she has put forth.  So, to test the principle, I invoked an earlier disagreement.  JayneK argued that husbands have a right to apply corporal punishment to their wives.  So I asked how the principle would apply to that case, since one can find MANY medical professionals who would claim that it would cause serious emotional and potentially physical harm to the wife ... and, to apply JayneK's reasoning, therefore the right does not exist.  That example was a way to test the sincerity and consistency of JayneK's argumentative principle.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #157 on: February 04, 2019, 08:42:01 PM »
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  • Why some husbands should not be present for childbirth...

    Husband #1  Went to Lamaze classes with wife through month 8, then chickened out.  Wife disappointed and upset.  Sister stepped in because she had been a Lamaze coach.  After baby was born, husband mad at wife for letting him miss out on the miracle of new life.

    Husband #2  Stayed at wife's bedside throughout labor up to and including birth which required use of forceps.  Mom went home with baby, Dad kept in hospital with concussion.  He passed out and hit his head on the floor.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #158 on: February 04, 2019, 09:22:32 PM »
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  • Quote
    Anyhow, as I posted earlier, we have one of the top obstetricians in the world, Michael Odent saying that the husband's presence is detrimental to the birth process, with potential for serious physical and emotional complications.  Therefore it is objectively contrary to right reason for the husband to be present.  Therefore he does not have a right to be there.
    Jaynek, this is illogical.  If something is objectively wrong, it’s wrong all the time.  If something is only “potentially” wrong, then it’s not objectively wrong.  A husband being present for a birth is not objectively wrong, 1) because a human birth isn’t a moral issue, 2) he does have an inherent right to see his child, 3) the morality of his presence depends on the circuмstances.  It would only be wrong in a grave situation (ie he knows it would freak out the mother or the doctor has a restraining order against him...or some other weird, but valid, reason). 

    —-
    So I asked how the principle would apply to that case, since one can find MANY medical professionals who would claim that it would cause serious emotional and potentially physical harm to the wife ... and, to apply JayneK's reasoning, therefore the right does not exist.  That example was a way to test the sincerity and consistency of JayneK's argumentative principle.
    —-

    Yes, that’s a fair comparison.  Sorry for commenting prematurely. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #159 on: February 04, 2019, 10:11:40 PM »
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  • Jaynek, this is illogical.  If something is objectively wrong, it’s wrong all the time.  If something is only “potentially” wrong, then it’s not objectively wrong.  A husband being present for a birth is not objectively wrong, 1) because a human birth isn’t a moral issue, 2) he does have an inherent right to see his child, 3) the morality of his presence depends on the circuмstances.  It would only be wrong in a grave situation (ie he knows it would freak out the mother or the doctor has a restraining order against him...or some other weird, but valid, reason).
    If what Dr Odent claims is true, that fathers being present during birth is medically inadvisable, then it is against reason for the father to insist on being there.  

    One may argue that the claim is not true, but if it is true, it affects the husband's right to be there. Of course it is a moral issue to do things that put one's wife and child at risk. 

    Risk is an another way to say potential for harm.  Just because it is not certain to cause harm does not make it OK.  It is only acceptable to take risks when there are proportionate benefits.  The man's emotional satisfaction in witnessing the miracle of birth is not proportionate to a greatly increased risk of C section or the other problems described by Dr Odent.  Whatever inherent right a husband has to be there, it is not prudent to attend the birth under these circuмstances.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #160 on: February 04, 2019, 11:07:08 PM »
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  • As Ladislaus has pointed out, your entire argument is based on ONE doctor, who said it is POTENTIALLY bad.  If he did some study wherein he said that 99% of the time out of 100,000 cases it’s bad, that’s different.  He’s making a generalized statement and you’re expanding that erroneously to the level of nearly-always.  Come on, that’s weak.  


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #161 on: February 05, 2019, 06:16:14 AM »
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  • I feel it is unśeemly for a women to consistently argue with men.
    It is not feminine behaviour but strident feminist behaviour.

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #162 on: February 05, 2019, 07:45:55 AM »
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  • I feel it is unśeemly for a women to consistently argue with men.
    It is not feminine behaviour but strident feminist behaviour.

    Especially when she presumes to "explain" to men (who aren't even her husband!) what they're "permitted" to do and what they're not; whether they have certain "rights" or not.

    What must her home life be like??  :o

    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #163 on: February 05, 2019, 11:30:44 AM »
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  • A few things, in no particular order -

    It used to be more customary that, in a normal circuмstance and not some emergency, a woman did not want her husband present for the birth because she was so unattractive then.  After the birth, it was typical for the mom to want to be beautified and get fixed up - she got her hair brushed, etc. - then the husband could see her and baby who was by then, also often finished with post-birth care.  The wife usually wanted to be presentable and attractive, and especially then if possible.  

    In Genesis 3:21 it says:  "Then the Lord God cast a deep sleep upon Adam: and when he was fast asleep, he took one of his ribs, and filled up flesh for it."  Sounds a little like a pain killer/anesthetic moment there?

    Many of us remember the old days on CathInfo when no gender was obvious.  There were no pink or blue symbols.  One had to guess, if one was that interested - and using just what the member was saying to go by - if the participant was male or female.  The playing field was level.  One could participate just as a Catholic.  Now right on the face of it, there are two teams here, with all the obvious and automatic feelings, sometimes prejudices, that brings to bear.  It is hard now for men to not call out the women members as not being submissive, say, or to not be pre-programmed to often dismiss whatever she may say - or just, plain resent their participation.  And it is hard for the women to not be discouraged as not being taken seriously.  There is an element of the women having to earn respect, instead of automatically having it to start with, before losing it later and deservedly after doing some posting, as is the case with men.  The "gender reveal" on CathInfo has made a difference.          

      


     

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #164 on: February 05, 2019, 11:40:09 AM »
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  • It’s very easy to recognize a woman’s emotional arguments, regardless of an indicator.  This is not a knock against them; its how God made them.  

    As you point out about the “good old days” of birthing and women wanting to remain attractive to their husbands - remember when women used to accept their natures and not try to debate philosophical principles with men?