Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12

Author Topic: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral  (Read 21463 times)

0 Members and 32 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Carissima

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 782
  • Reputation: +569/-229
  • Gender: Female
Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
« Reply #135 on: February 04, 2019, 05:17:52 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 04, 2019, 03:37:36 PM
    This is what I think is the ideal: The woman goes through labour and delivery in a home-like, comfortable, quiet room with one or two trained female attendants.  There are medical services immediately available nearby in case of emergencies.  The husband is also nearby and perhaps visits with her a bit in the earlier stages of labour depending on how she is handling it.  As soon as the baby is born (assuming he does not require medical attention) the father joins mother and child while she breastfeeds the baby for the first time.  The parents and baby are allowed to bond for a while. 
    So basically, as long as the father is not present while the child passes through the birth canal then we’ve got an ideal birth situation.   :furtive: 
    Logged

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4161
    • Reputation: +2305/-1226
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #136 on: February 04, 2019, 05:23:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 04, 2019, 04:51:25 PM
    Often?  Sometimes?  This is a pointless generalization.  It may be true for some women some of the time.  Most of the time there are mixed motives.  Perhaps this is part of it for some, perhaps not.  In no event does this demonstrate any kind of principle.
    It is not pointless. 

    Men are treated like jerks for not attending the birth.  In this thread alone, we have seen many disparaging comments towards men who do not wish to do so.  The excuse for this man-bashing is that such men are denying women needed love and support.

    So if women are saying they want their husband present merely because this is the current fashion, then the harsh judgments against these men wrong and unjust.  As you admit, we do not actually know what women's motives are for claiming to want husbands present.  Probably, in many or most cases women's motives are mixed.  Nevertheless, the absent husband is always treated as the bad guy as if all women only had a pure and genuine need for his presence which he is cruelly denying her.
    Here is an article discussing the pressure on men to attend birth: https://www.todaysparent.com/pregnancy/giving-birth/i-didnt-want-my-husband-in-the-delivery-room/

    Some quotes: 
    Quote
    Before the 1960s, fathers in North America were rarely present at the births of their children. However, social norms around childbirth have changed dramatically in recent years, and now partners of both sexes are expected to play an integral supporting role during childbirth. For some couples, this is a wonderful dynamic, but for others—perhaps more than care to admit—the expectations can result in pressure for the partner and anxiety for the birthing mom.

    Quote
    Yet, the option of a partner sitting out for a birth isn’t often talked about today. Many couples feel pressured to have their partner in the delivery room because a partner’s involvement and support during delivery is often seen as proof of their commitment as a parent and significant other.

    “Nowadays it’s seen as the norm that a ‘good partner’ will be there and be hands-on, but that’s not the best situation for everyone,” says Bailey Gaddis, a California-based author and doula (a birth coach). Some moms, including Hiraldo, worry about what others will think about their partners not being present for the birth. “I thought my mom friends would judge [my husband] and think that he didn’t want to be there for me,” she says. “I thought my mom friends would judge [my husband] and think that he didn’t want to be there for me,” she says.

    Logged

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4161
    • Reputation: +2305/-1226
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #137 on: February 04, 2019, 05:27:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
    • Quote from: Anonymous on February 04, 2019, 05:11:27 PM
    Midwives encourage fathers to participate in the birth by encouraging the mother thus producing more oxytocin the hormone necessary for natural birth.  
    Dr. Odent is a renowned obstetrician that I had already heard of before seeing this article.  You are not backing up your claim with any studies or even putting your name to your opinion. Obviously, I am going to take his view over yours.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46549
    • Reputation: +27414/-5066
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #138 on: February 04, 2019, 05:27:56 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 04, 2019, 04:55:17 PM
    Anyhow, as I posted earlier, we have one of the top obstetricians in the world, Michael Odent saying that the husband's presence is detrimental to the birth process, with potential for serious physical and emotional complications.  Therefore it is objectively contrary to right reason for the husband to be present.  Therefore he does not have a right to be there.

    Let's take a step back.  You've evidently conceded that an individual woman's perception that something violates her dignity does not suffice to override a husband's rights.  That opens the floodgates for women to disobey pretty much anything commanded by their husbands.

    So now you bring the opinion of one obstetrician and try to leverage that into claiming that it's "objectively" contrary to right reason.  Come back to me with a credible (pre Vatican II) theologian and then we can talk.  For that matter, find ONE Traditional Catholic priest who agrees with you about this, and then I might be a LITTLE more open to it.  I can find some "expert" in any field saying pretty much anything.  I could find 10s of thousands of psychologists who would claim that corporal punishment of a wife by her husband has the potential for serious physical and emotional complications.  This man's opinion is contradicted by pretty much every hospital and medical practice in the country ... which all allow husbands to be present at births.  Just as the husband's presence MAY lead to complications, so too could his ABSENCE lead to serious physical and emotional complications.

    Your argument is essentially that one guy has an opinion, and now that makes it an objective standard.
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #139 on: February 04, 2019, 05:32:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Jayne, being shaken in sheets went back to Middle Ages.

    I see the flaw in your logic with women have the right to refuse their husband when it goes against their dignity. Well, that’s a pretty general statement. A woman can say that about anything... I don’t think that applies here. I’m also not trying to be to graphic, but men will see more during the making of the baby than actual birth. There’s usually a privacy sheet, and if there isn’t. You can request one.

    I seriously keep forgetting the button thing here 🙄 

    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46549
    • Reputation: +27414/-5066
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #140 on: February 04, 2019, 05:33:12 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 04, 2019, 05:27:50 PM
    Dr. Odent is a renowned obstetrician that I had already heard of before seeing this article.  You are not backing up your claim with any studies or even putting your name to your opinion. Obviously, I am going to take his view over yours.

    You always accept whatever view happens to please you.  Should I cite top psychologists and behavioral scientists who argue that corporal punishment of wives by husbands have the potential for serious physical and emotional consequences?  What would you say to those?
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46549
    • Reputation: +27414/-5066
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #141 on: February 04, 2019, 05:35:40 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 04, 2019, 05:23:57 PM
    It is not pointless.

    Men are treated like jerks for not attending the birth.  In this thread alone, we have seen many disparaging comments towards men who do not wish to do so.  The excuse for this man-bashing is that such men are denying women needed love and support.

    More generalizations.  Everything depends on WHY they're skipping.  I doubt you'll ever find a man who has skipped on PRINCIPLE (because you can count on one hand the people who claim that it's wrong for a husband to be there).  So is the man who skips the birth of his child because he's got tickets to a playoff game not a jerk?
    Logged

    Offline Vintagewife3

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 700
    • Reputation: +331/-356
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #142 on: February 04, 2019, 05:39:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Michael doesn’t also believes sex therapy should be used during child birth. How’s that for a woman’s dignity, Jayne?
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #143 on: February 04, 2019, 05:41:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • It wouldn’t let me modify “odent”
    Logged

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4161
    • Reputation: +2305/-1226
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #144 on: February 04, 2019, 05:51:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 04, 2019, 05:27:56 PM
    Let's take a step back.  You've evidently conceded that an individual woman's perception that something violates her dignity does not suffice to override a husband's rights.  That opens the floodgates for women to disobey pretty much anything commanded by their husbands.

    Of course I do not believe something so obviously wrong.  I neither said nor implied that I did.  If you cannot refrain from straw man arguments I am not interested in discussing this with you.  I expect honest arguments from my opponents.

    Quote from: Ladislaus on February 04, 2019, 05:27:56 PM
    Your argument is essentially that one guy has an opinion, and now that makes it an objective standard.

    This "one guy" is one of the world's leading experts in this area.  His opinion carries a great deal of weight.  Yes, it will be possible to find people who disagree with him.  Are things only an objective standard when there is unanimous agreement on them?  A person who can reasonably be considered to know what he is talking about says that it is detrimental.  Can't we reasonably expect this expert to know more about it than the husband?  

    As a practical matter, I would advise any woman who feels she has grounds to disobey her husband, because he is demanding something against dignity or reason, to discuss it with a good priest.  There is a danger of self-deception if she reaches a decision on her own.  I would be very surprised if a priest told a woman that her husband had a right to be present at the birth when she did not him there, especially if one of the factors were expert medical advice against it.
    Logged

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4161
    • Reputation: +2305/-1226
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #145 on: February 04, 2019, 05:59:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
    • Quote from: Anonymous on February 04, 2019, 05:32:52 PM
    Jayne, being shaken in sheets went back to Middle Ages.
    Then it was not a practice that was stopped by husbands starting to attend births, as was claimed.   

    I am saying that the ideal is the tradition of female birth attendants, not that every birth practice that ever existed should be retained.  It is possible to combine that tradition with the knowledge of modern medicine.
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Pain Medicine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #146 on: February 04, 2019, 06:12:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Why did the husbands in the past, refrain from attending births as a rule, if they had the authority to be there if they wanted to? They could have simply made the request if they were that interested.  ::)

    Husbands could have easily changed the norm back in the patriarchal days, when they wore the pants. Yet, they didn't. Now they are welcome and expected in the delivery room and it's the women who wear the pants, cause we live in a Matriarchy :jester:
    Logged

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4161
    • Reputation: +2305/-1226
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #147 on: February 04, 2019, 06:23:43 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!2
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 04, 2019, 05:33:12 PM
    You always accept whatever view happens to please you.  Should I cite top psychologists and behavioral scientists who argue that corporal punishment of wives by husbands have the potential for serious physical and emotional consequences?  What would you say to those?
    Since I am not a proponent of corporal punishment of wives (however much you try to create the impression that I am) I would have nothing to say about it.

    I am getting miffed that you drag this subject in whenever you disagree with me about something.  It is not even my actual view and yet you raise the subject again and again.  And then people complain about how the subject gets talked about too much.  It is not because this forum is filled with men who want to hit women, but because it is your go to "red herring".

    Quote from: Ladislaus on February 04, 2019, 05:35:40 PM
    More generalizations.  Everything depends on WHY they're skipping.  I doubt you'll ever find a man who has skipped on PRINCIPLE (because you can count on one hand the people who claim that it's wrong for a husband to be there).  So is the man who skips the birth of his child because he's got tickets to a playoff game not a jerk?
    That article that I cited from Today's Parent was all about men who were absent from birth on principle.  It is not unusual for men to be uncomfortable with being present at birth and that is, in itself, a good reason not to be there.  An uncomfortable husband is quite likely not going to do a good job of comforting his wife and they should find someone else to do that job who will do it better.

    There is no reason to think that it is common for men to "skip out because they have tickets to a playoff game." You keep promoting all these negative stereotypes about men, apparently so you can show off how superior you are to the usual sort of men.  (You never talk about "we men have this problem we ought to correct."  It's always "those other men are horrible but not me.")  There is already a problem in our society with demonizing men and it is really irresponsible of you to keep throwing fuel on the fire as you do.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46549
    • Reputation: +27414/-5066
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #148 on: February 04, 2019, 06:44:02 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!2
    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 04, 2019, 05:51:11 PM
    This "one guy" is one of the world's leading experts in this area.  His opinion carries a great deal of weight.

    Sure, to you.  He's obviously in the minority, since I know of no hospitals which bar husbands from the birth ... while most bar them from other emergency situations when they'd be in the way.  Now, if a C section were taking place, the husband would be removed from the immediate vicinity, for medical reasons.  So the fact that the hospitals allow them to stay there means that they do not consider it to be any kind of serious and proximate threat to the childbirth process.

    OK, so how would you apply the consensus of psychologists today that corporal punishment causes grave harm to the wife?
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46549
    • Reputation: +27414/-5066
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pain Medecine During Childbirth is Immoral
    « Reply #149 on: February 04, 2019, 06:46:12 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 04, 2019, 06:23:43 PM
    Since I am not a proponent of corporal punishment of wives (however much you try to create the impression that I am) I would have nothing to say about it.

    You are in fact an advocate of the husband's RIGHT to use corporal punishment.  That's what is in fact under discussion here, a husband's rights.  But applying your own standards, if I find psychologists who say that it could cause serious emotional or psychological harm, that would overturn that right.  Nice attempt to be slippery, but you fail since we weren't talking about actual practice but about rights.
    Logged
    Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12
    « previous next »