Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful  (Read 5423 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2022, 01:38:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    I don't plan to marry, I can barely stand the opposite gender people in my life... The main thing is that if I am ever ordained a priest, I don't want to err in Confession. 
    Jumping the gun, aren't you? :facepalm:


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23947/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #31 on: April 27, 2022, 07:31:09 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • This statement is false and absurd. The OP seems to be a woman, so let me explain this as a man.

    Correct.  If the OP is not a woman, then one might suspect some unnatural inclinations.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23947/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #32 on: April 27, 2022, 07:42:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In terms of any (potential) sins against purity, as Matthew pointed out, each individual knows what is an occasion of sin for that person.

    But this is not merely about occasion of sin.  There's a question of serious impropriety, and possible scandal.  St. Pius X refused to ride in the same carriage with his own sister for fear of causing scandal (for those who didn't know they were borther and sister).

    While it would be inappropriate for a single person to spend time alone with a member of the opposite sex, it would be much more inappropriate for a married person to spend time alone with a member of the opposite sex, right?  Same applies to a priest.  Some things that may be appropriate for a single person, would not be appropriate for a priest, because the priest needs to constantly project the dignity of the priesthood.  While it would be fine for a layman to go to a hockey game and cheer raucously, this would be entirely inappropriate for a priest.  In neither case would it be a case of "sin" per se, but in the case of the priest would be inappropriate due to the dignity of the priesthood.  So there's an element of sacrilege tied to a priest's misbehavior.

    On a separate note, IMO, priests should not strive to get familiar with anyone at all (regardless of gender) excpet, to some extent, with other priests.  "Particular friendships" were always frowned upon even at seminary.  We see this over and over again when a priest has "favorites".  It's similar to a parent showing favoritism to one child or another.  Also, when priests get too familiar with the faithful at their chapel, it also makes it more difficult for the faithful to approach them for spiritual direction and especially confession.  Hey, I as out bowling with Father Bob last night, had a few beers with him, and now I'm supposed to take him seriously as a Confessor.  And if the priest knows the faithful too well, they might be reluctant to confess their more embarassing sins to them.

    This advice came from an elderly pre-Vatican II priest who visited STAS and who gave that advice to semnarians, that priests should not get too familiar with the faithful ... for both the above reasons.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23947/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #33 on: April 27, 2022, 07:46:07 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't plan to marry, I can barely stand the opposite gender people in my life... The main thing is that if I am ever ordained a priest, I don't want to err in Confession.

    Most seminary rectors would not admit you to seminary given any lack of natural attraction to the opposite sex, as being a warning sign of potential unnatural attractions.  Huge red flag there.  I've had a seminary professor actually tell me this.

    I knew a young man who kept insisting on the same thing, that he wasn't attracted to women, and, when pressed, insisted that he considered himself "asɛҳuąƖ".  About two years after that conversation, he came out of the closet as having unnatural attractions.  His "asɛҳuąƖity" was nothing more than a repression of unnatural inclinations the were there under the surface ... which backed up what that seminary professor said.  Men who are attracted to adult women tend not to be at risk of being attracted to men or even children.  Those who are not attracted to women present a huge risk of some kind of suppressed inclinations coming out in an unnatural manner.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31202
    • Reputation: +27121/-495
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #34 on: April 27, 2022, 11:15:35 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Just because someone does not have such an intense interest in women does not mean that they cannot sin in having unchaste thoughts about them! Maybe since they are not in heresy and God is good, their prayers for purity in mind actually worked! You seem to be rejecting any such grace, not to mention the grace of baptism and the sacraments against concupiscence.

    Any lack of natural attraction to the opposite sex or total lack? In either case, you are accusing St. Thomas Aquinas, young people in general, and many saints of unspeakable things, for the petty reason that they were not as predisposed to lust as you would have all men be. It is perfectly reasonable to be grossed out by the details of feminine nakedness and other practical considerations. Just ask your nearest boy or girl who does not have a dirty mind! Call it Asperger's or whatever you want: some of us will not change our perspective unless acceptable evidence is put forth, and that is not an anecdote, or a million of them, neither is it the pious thought of some saint, or the deduction of some theologian: it must be from the universal magisterium of the Church.

    That poses an another question: what if they are visibly wearing St. Philomena's cord on their waist? Then, there is even less motive for the supposed scandal.


    There's got to be a name for this heresy -- throwing prudence and natural considerations to the wind, as if the supernatural can make void all things natural. As if one can count on supernatural grace to COMPLETELY HEAL all the effects of original sin, concupiscence -- such that men and women can live in common in a community, for example.

    You must pray as if all depends on God, but do your part as well. I knew a young man who unwittingly seduced a married 40-something woman with a lot of children. They used to pray together (Divine Mercy in particular) and make long thanksgivings after Mass, kneeling next to each other. No one suspected a thing or saw any problem -- until actual adultery took place. Then the man was almost shot by the husband (the husband was a gun nut and a mechanic), fortunately the spurned husband just shot the man's truck -- but in a vulnerable spot which destroyed the truck. The young man was forced to leave the SSPX chapel and quickly became sedevacantist. After making the 3.5 hour journey to the closest chapel (happened to be sedevacantist), he soon quit going altogether. He got into astrology, and soon after completely apostatized. Years later (during covid) I learned that he was shacking up with some other woman one generation older than him.

    I should also point out he was big-time into the "manosphere" he called it -- basically the MGTOW movement. He was very cynical about women. The MGTOW movement teaches that women are little more than children (of course, for some modern women this is basically true) who need to be put in their place, looked down upon, etc. They use expressions like AWALT (All Women Are Like That) "She's not yours, it's just your turn.", "One-itis" (any attempt to think one woman is special, wanting to pair up permanently with one woman) and so on. Many "players" who are into "The Game" (philanderers into frequent fornication) participate in the MGTOW movement.

    Piety, grace, the sacraments are NOT a full cure for Original Sin and its effects. Baptism washes away Original Sin BUT leaves all the wounds intact. We still suffer from ignorance, concupiscence, malice, suffering, and eventually death.

    Didn't the Beguines fall into a similar error during the Middle Ages? And as Fr. Iscara (our history professor) pointed out, the two groups (one male, one female) started shacking up eventually. They believed that once you were a certain level of holy, you couldn't sin, or something to that effect.

    There have been some very interesting chapters and episodes in Church history. And as they say, "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it."
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #35 on: April 27, 2022, 11:36:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This thread has to be one of the most naive threads on CI, right up there with - Why would the govt want to kill people with the covid jab?  

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41910
    • Reputation: +23947/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #36 on: April 27, 2022, 01:33:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Then the man was almost shot by the husband (the husband was a gun nut and a mechanic) ...


    Offline Cera

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5217
    • Reputation: +2291/-1012
    • Gender: Female
    • Pray for the consecration of Russia to Mary's I H
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #37 on: April 27, 2022, 02:51:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • There's got to be a name for this heresy -- throwing prudence and natural considerations to the wind, as if the supernatural can make void all things natural. As if one can count on supernatural grace to COMPLETELY HEAL all the effects of original sin, concupiscence -- such that men and women can live in common in a community, for example.

    You must pray as if all depends on God, but do your part as well. I knew a young man who unwittingly seduced a married 40-something woman with a lot of children. They used to pray together (Divine Mercy in particular) and make long thanksgivings after Mass, kneeling next to each other. No one suspected a thing or saw any problem -- until actual adultery took place. Then the man was almost shot by the husband (the husband was a gun nut and a mechanic), fortunately the spurned husband just shot the man's truck -- but in a vulnerable spot which destroyed the truck. The young man was forced to leave the SSPX chapel and quickly became sedevacantist. After making the 3.5 hour journey to the closest chapel (happened to be sedevacantist), he soon quit going altogether. He got into astrology, and soon after completely apostatized. Years later (during covid) I learned that he was shacking up with some other woman one generation older than him.

    I should also point out he was big-time into the "manosphere" he called it -- basically the MGTOW movement. He was very cynical about women. The MGTOW movement teaches that women are little more than children (of course, for some modern women this is basically true) who need to be put in their place, looked down upon, etc. They use expressions like AWALT (All Women Are Like That) "She's not yours, it's just your turn.", "One-itis" (any attempt to think one woman is special, wanting to pair up permanently with one woman) and so on. Many "players" who are into "The Game" (philanderers into frequent fornication) participate in the MGTOW movement.

    Piety, grace, the sacraments are NOT a full cure for Original Sin and its effects. Baptism washes away Original Sin BUT leaves all the wounds intact. We still suffer from ignorance, concupiscence, malice, suffering, and eventually death.

    Didn't the Beguines fall into a similar error during the Middle Ages? And as Fr. Iscara (our history professor) pointed out, the two groups (one male, one female) started shacking up eventually. They believed that once you were a certain level of holy, you couldn't sin, or something to that effect.

    There have been some very interesting chapters and episodes in Church history. And as they say, "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it."
    This is disgusting and evil; but perfectly consistent with his evil behavior.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline bodeens

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1514
    • Reputation: +803/-159
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #38 on: April 27, 2022, 10:50:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Edit: Made a joke that might make scrupulous people worry, sorry.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31202
    • Reputation: +27121/-495
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #39 on: April 28, 2022, 12:51:54 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The OP has been banned. He was a member with very few posts.

    He asked me "why?" and I'll tell you all what I told him:


    Quote
    You were calling other CathInfo members "heretics".
     
    You combine youth/ignorance/inexperience with extreme levels of self-assuredness, confidence (dare I say "pride"?) and that is a lethal combination.

    I don't mind newbies, converts, and the ignorant on CathInfo. We all started out as babies knowing nothing. But when they set themselves up as the prime authority, that is not going to work!


    And yes, calling other members "heretics" is technically a grey area -- but it puts you on a VERY short list of candidates for banning, at least. You better have a good reason, know me personally, have a long history on CathInfo, be an ex-seminarian, or something. Because even if I occasionally tolerate such behavior/language in special cases, it is NOT something I tolerate by default!

    It depends on the issue being discussed as well. If it's in the context of a BoD debate, Sede debate, or Geocentrism/Flat Earth debate, one must expect throwing the word "heresy" and "heretic" around. It's almost understandable. But in other cases, like regular Catholic morality for example, I would have almost zero tolerance. For example if someone said you literally HAVE TO (not just "should" or "would be prudent") use chaperones every time your daughter/wife leaves the house (like in Islam) under pain of sin -- calling others heretics if they disagree -- I would have no tolerance for that.

    I suppose it boils down to "certain" matters vs. "debated" matters. Some things I have sufficient education (and hence, confidence) to conclude that X is true and everything else is an error. But things touching on the Crisis I will give more leeway, because there is no certainty from the Church about these matters.

    And yes, it depends on who you are calling a heretic! If it's a pillar of the forum who has established himself for years as a well-educated, serious Catholic -- then no, I'm not going to tolerate it. Especially if it's from a member who has made only 50 or 100 posts over many years time.

    Long story short, CathInfo is a monarcy, not a democracy or republic, using Catholic morality, common sense, and prudence as my guide. I will not publish a lawyer's list of rules that someone can skirt "letter of the law" style like a pharisee. Not gonna happen.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 3481
    • Reputation: +2007/-447
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #40 on: April 28, 2022, 03:14:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not to mention, it makes little difference what one thinks about the shape of the earth. But to go around telling people there's nothing wrong with men and women spending time alone together, and people who see a problem with that are scrupulous and following invented rules ... anyone who follows that terrible advice is going to get hurt real bad, real fast. :facepalm:


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #41 on: April 29, 2022, 01:15:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The OP has been banned. He was a member with very few posts.

    He asked me "why?" and I'll tell you all what I told him:



    And yes, calling other members "heretics" is technically a grey area -- but it puts you on a VERY short list of candidates for banning, at least. You better have a good reason, know me personally, have a long history on CathInfo, be an ex-seminarian, or something. Because even if I occasionally tolerate such behavior/language in special cases, it is NOT something I tolerate by default!

    It depends on the issue being discussed as well. If it's in the context of a BoD debate, Sede debate, or Geocentrism/Flat Earth debate, one must expect throwing the word "heresy" and "heretic" around. It's almost understandable. But in other cases, like regular Catholic morality for example, I would have almost zero tolerance. For example if someone said you literally HAVE TO (not just "should" or "would be prudent") use chaperones every time your daughter/wife leaves the house (like in Islam) under pain of sin -- calling others heretics if they disagree -- I would have no tolerance for that.

    I suppose it boils down to "certain" matters vs. "debated" matters. Some things I have sufficient education (and hence, confidence) to conclude that X is true and everything else is an error. But things touching on the Crisis I will give more leeway, because there is no certainty from the Church about these matters.

    And yes, it depends on who you are calling a heretic! If it's a pillar of the forum who has established himself for years as a well-educated, serious Catholic -- then no, I'm not going to tolerate it. Especially if it's from a member who has made only 50 or 100 posts over many years time.

    Long story short, CathInfo is a monarcy, not a democracy or republic, using Catholic morality, common sense, and prudence as my guide. I will not publish a lawyer's list of rules that someone can skirt "letter of the law" style like a pharisee. Not gonna happen.
    People like the OP don't worship God, they worship themselves.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #42 on: May 07, 2022, 02:28:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • avoiding being alone with a member of the opposite sex is simply avoiding the near occasion of sin.
    Being alone with someone of the opposite sex isn't necessarily a proximate occasion of sin.

    St. Alphonsus of Liguori, treatise on preaching (in The Saint Alphonsus de Liguori Collection):
    Quote from: St. Alphonsus
    The remote occasion is that to which all are exposed, or in which men seldom fall into sin. The proximate occasion is that which by itself ordinarily induces to sin, such as unnecessary familiarity of young men with women of bad reputation. An occasion in which a person has frequently fallen is also called a proximate occasion.

    Praxis Confessarii
    Quote from: St. Alphonsus
    a person cannot be absolved if every time he visits a certain house—even if only once a year—he commits sin there; for such visiting is already a proximate occasion for him. Neither can he be absolved whose presence in a proximate occasion of sin gives grave scandal to others—even though he himself does not fall.

    Proximate occasion thus means a circuмstance it which you did (even once) commit a sin, not one in which you could sin but never did.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #43 on: May 07, 2022, 03:27:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Being alone with someone of the opposite sex isn't necessarily a proximate occasion of sin.

    St. Alphonsus of Liguori, treatise on preaching (in The Saint Alphonsus de Liguori Collection):
    Praxis Confessarii
    Proximate occasion thus means a circuмstance it which you did (even once) commit a sin, not one in which you could sin but never did.
    Matthew 5:28
    But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    2 Timothy 2:22
    “Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart."

    Offline Geremia

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4127
    • Reputation: +1260/-261
    • Gender: Male
      • St. Isidore e-book library
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #44 on: May 07, 2022, 10:18:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Matthew 5:28
    But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.
    How is this related? Not every male and female are alone together because the one lusted after the other. A doctor with his female patient, a priest with his spiritual daughter, a brother with his sister, a chaste husband and wife are counterexamples.

    1 Tim. 5:1-2: "entreat...young women, as sisters, in all chastity."

    We're not Spartans or Druids, whose societies practiced such a radical separation of the sexes that even husbands and wives came together only once per year. As St. Thomas Aquinas commentated on Aristotle's Politics bk. 2 ch. 13 (p. 149):
    Quote from: St. Thomas
    if most citizens should be forced to abstain too much from women, they then fall into a shameful vice, namely, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre