Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful  (Read 5422 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 31202
  • Reputation: +27121/-495
  • Gender: Male
Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2022, 05:45:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • A couple wise sayings come to mind:

    "God exalts the humble, and casts down the proud."

    "Pride goeth before a fall."
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #16 on: April 26, 2022, 05:53:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • On Avoiding the Occasions of Sin
    by St. Aphonsus Di Liguori


     "When the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together for fear of the Jєωs,
     Jesus came and stood in the midst."--John xx. 19.




    We find in this day's gospel that after His resurrection Jesus Christ entered, though the doors were closed, into the house in which the apostles were assembled, and stood in the midst of them. St. Thomas says, that the mystic meaning of this miracle is, that the Lord does not enter into our souls unless we keep the door of the senses shut. "Mistice per hoc datur intelligi, quod Christus nobit apparet quando fores, id est sensus sunt clausi." If, then, we wish Jesus Christ to dwell within us, we must keep the doors of our senses closed against dangerous occasions, otherwise the devil will make us his slaves. I will show today the great danger of perdition to which they who do not avoid the occasions of sin expose themselves.

     1. We read in the Scriptures that Christ and Lazarus arose from the dead. Christ rose to die no more "Christ rising from the dead, dieth no more" (Rom. vi. 9); but Lazarus arose and died again. The Abbot Guerric remarks that Christ arose free and unbound; "but Lazarus came forth bound feet and hands." (John xi. 44.) Miserable the man, adds this author, who rises from sin bound by any dangerous occasion: he will die again by losing the divine grace. He, then, who wishes to save his soul, must not only abandon sin, but also the occasions of sin: that is, he must renounce such an intimacy, such a house; he must renounce those wicked companions, and all similar occasions that incite him to sin.

     2. In consequence of original sin, we all have an inclination to do what is forbidden. Hence St. Paul complained that he experienced in himself a law opposed to reason: "But I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin." (Rom. vii. 23.) Now, when a dangerous occasion is present, it violently excites our corrupt desires, so that it is then very difficult to resist them: because God withholds efficacious helps from those who voluntarily expose themselves to the occasion of sin. "He that loveth danger shall perish in it." (Eccl. iii. 27.) "When," says St. Thomas, in his comment on this passage, "we expose ourselves to danger, God abandons us in it." St. Bernardine of Sienna teaches that the counsel of avoiding the occasions of sin is the best of all counsel, and as it were the foundation of religion. "Inter consilia Christi unum celeberrimum, et quasi religiouis fundamentum est, fugere peccatorum occasiones."

     3. St. Peter says that "the devil goeth about seeking whom he may devour." (1 Pet. v. 8.) He is constantly going about our souls, endeavouring to enter and take possession of them. Hence, he seeks to place before us the occasions of sin, by which he enters the soul. "Explorat," says St. Cyprian, "an sit pars cujus aditu penetret." When the soul yields to the suggestions of the devil, and exposes herself to the occasions of sin, he easily enters and devours her. The ruin of our first parents arose from their not flying from the occasions of sin. God had prohibited them not only to eat, but even to touch the forbidden apple. In answer to the serpent tempting her, Eve said: "God hath commanded us that we should not eat, and that we should not touch it." (Gen. iii. 3.) But "she saw, took, and eat" the forbidden fruit: she first looked at it, she then took it into her hands, and afterwards eat it. This is what ordinarily happens to all who expose themselves to the occasions of sin. Hence, being once compelled by exorcisms to tell the sermon which displeased him most, the devil confessed that it was the sermon on avoiding the occasions of sin. As long as we expose ourselves to the occasions of sin, the devil laughs at all our good purposes and promises made to God. The greatest care of the enemy is to induce us not to avoid evil occasions; for these occasions, like a veil placed before the eyes, prevent us from seeing either the lights received from God, or the eternal truths, or the resolutions we have made: in a word, they make us forget all, and as it were force us into sin.

     4. "Know it to be a communication with death; for thou art going in the midst of snares." (Eccl. ix. 20.) Everyone born in this world enters into the midst of snares. Hence, the Wise Man advises those who wish to be secure to guard themselves against the snares of the world, and to withdraw from them. "He that is aware of the snares shall be secure." (Prov. xi. 15.) But if, instead of withdrawing from them, a Christian approaches to them, how can he avoid being caught by them? Hence, after having with so much loss learned the danger of exposing himself to the danger of sin, David said that, to continue faithful to God, he kept at a distance from every occasion which could lead him to relapse." I have restrained my feet from every evil way, that I may keep thy words." (Ps. cxviii. 101.) He does not say from every sin, but from every evil way which conducts to sin. The devil is careful to find pretexts to make us believe that certain occasions to which we expose ourselves are not voluntary, but necessary. When the occasion in which we are placed is really necessary, the Lord always helps us to avoid sin; but we sometimes imagine certain necessities which are not sufficient to excuse us. "A treasure is never safe" says St. Cyprian, "as long as a robber is harboured within; nor is a lamb secure while it dwells in the same den with a wolf." (Lib. de Sing. Cler.) The saint speaks against those who do not wish to remove the occasions of sin, and still say: "I am not afraid that I shall fall." As no one can be secure of his treasure if he keeps a thief in his house, and as a lamb cannot be sure of its life if it remain in the den of a wolf, so likewise no one can be secure of the treasure of divine grace if he is resolved to continue in the occasion of sin. St. James teaches that every man has within himself a powerful enemy, that is, his own evil inclinations, which tempt him to sin. "Every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, drawn away, and allured." (St. James i. 14.) If, then, we do not fly from the external occasions, how can we resist temptation and avoid sin? Let us, therefore, place before our eyes the general remedy which Jesus has prescribed for conquering temptations and saving our souls. "If thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee." (Matt. v. 29.) If you find that your right eye is to you a cause of damnation, you must pull it out and cast it far from you; that is, when there is danger of losing your soul, you must fly from all evil occasions. St. Francis of Assisium used to say, as I have stated in another sermon, that the devil does not seek, in the beginning, to bind timorous souls with the chain of mortal sin; because they would be alarmed at the thought of committing mortal sin, and would fly from it with horror: he endeavours to bind them by a single hair, which does not excite much fear; because by this means he will succeed more easily in strengthening their bonds, till he makes them his slaves. Hence he who wishes to be free from the danger of being the slave of hell must break all the hairs by which the enemy attempts to bind him; that is, he must avoid all occasions of sin, such as certain salutations, billets, little presents, and words of affection. With regard to those who have had a habit of impurity, it will not be sufficient to avoid proximate occasions; if they do not fly from remote occasions, they will very easily relapse into their former sins.

     5. Impurity, says St. Augustine, is a vice which makes war on all, and which few conquer. "The fight is common, but the victory rare." How many miserable souls have entered the contest with this vice, and have been defeated! But to induce you to expose yourselves to occasions of this sin, the devil will tell you not to be afraid of being overcome by the temptation. "I do not wish," says St. Jerome, "to fight with the hope of victory, lest I should sometimes lose the victory." I will not expose myself to the combat with the hope of conquering; because, by voluntarily engaging in the fight, I shall lose my soul and my God. To escape defeat in this struggle, a great grace of God is necessary; and to render ourselves worthy of this grace, we must, on our part, avoid the occasions of sin. To practise the virtue of chastity, it is necessary to recommend ourselves continually to God: we have not strength to preserve it; that strength must be the gift of God. " And as I knew," says the Wise Man, "that I could not otherwise be continent, except God gave it, . . . I went to the Lord, and besought him." (Wis. viii. 21.) But if we expose ourselves to the occasions of sin, we ourselves shall provide our rebellious flesh with arms to make war against the soul. "Neither," says the Apostle, "yield ye your members as instruments of sin unto iniquity." (Rom. vi. 13.) In explaining this passage, St. Cyril of Alexandria says: "You stimulate the flesh; you arm it, and make it powerful against the spirit." St. Philip Neri used to say, that in the war against the vice of impurity, the victory is gained by cowards that is, by those who fly from the occasions of this sin. But the man who exposes himself to it, arms his flesh, and renders it so powerful, that it will be morally impossible for him to resist its attacks.

     6. "Cry," says the Lord to Isaias, "all flesh is grass." (Isa. xl. 6.) Now, says St. John Chrysostom, if all flesh is grass, it is as foolish for a man who exposes himself to the occasion of sin to hope to preserve the virtue of purity, as to expect that hay, into which a torch has been thrown, will not take fire. "Put a torch into hay, and then dare to deny that the hay will burn." No, says St. Cyprian; it is impossible to stand in the midst of flames, and not to burn. " Impossibile est flammis circuмdari et non ardere." (De Sing. Cler.) " Can a man," says the Holy Ghost, "hide fire in his bosom, and his garments not burn? or can he walk upon hot coals, and his feet not be burnt?" (Prov. vi. 27, 28.) Not to be burnt in such circuмstances would be a miracle. St. Bernard teaches, that to preserve chastity, and, at the same time, to expose oneself to the proximate occasion of sin, "is a greater miracle than to raise a dead man to life."

     7. In explaining the fifth Psalm, St. Augustine says, that "he who is unwilling to fly from danger, wishes to perish in it." Hence, in another place, he exhorts those who wish to conquer, and not to perish, to avoid dangerous occasions. "In the occasion of falling into sin, take flight, if you desire to gain the victory." (Serm. ccl. de temp.) Some foolishly trust in their own strength, and do not see that their strength is like that of tow placed in the fire. "And your strength shall be as the ashes of tow." (Isa. i. 31 .) Others, trusting in the change which has taken place in their life, in their confessions, and in the promises they have made to God, say: Through the grace of the Lord, I have now no bad motive in seeking the company of such a person; her presence is not even an occasion of temptations: Listen, all you who speak in this manner. In Mauritania there are bears that go in quest of the apes, to feed upon them: as soon as a bear appears, the apes run up the trees, and thus save themselves. But what does the bear do? He stretches himself on the ground as if dead, and waits till the apes descend from the trees. The moment he sees that they have descended, he springs up, seizes on them, and devours them. It is thus the devil acts: he makes the temptation appear to be dead; but when a soul descends, and exposes herself to the occasion of sin, he stirs up temptation, and devours her. Oh! how many miserable souls, devoted to spiritual things, to mental prayer, to frequent communion, and to a life of holiness, have, by exposing themselves to the occasion of sin, become the slaves of the devil! We find in ecclesiastical history that a holy woman, who employed herself in the pious office of burying the martyrs, once found among them one who was not as yet dead. She brought him into her own house, and procured a physician and medicine for him, till he recovered. But, what happened? These two saints (as they might be called one of them on the point of being a martyr, the other devoting her time to works of mercy with so much risk of being persecuted by the tyrants) first fell into sin and lost the grace of God, and, becoming weaker by sin, afterwards denied the faith. St. Macarius relates a similar fact regarding an old man who suffered to be half-burned in defence of the faith; but, being brought back into prison, he, unfortunately for himself, formed an intimacy with a devout woman who served the martyrs, and fell into sin.

     8. The Holy Ghost tells us, that we must fly from sin as from a serpent. "Flee from sin as from, the face of a serpent." (Eccl. xxi. 2.) Hence, as we not only avoid the bite of a serpent, but are careful neither to touch nor approach it, so we must fly not only from sin, but also from the occasion of sin that is, from the house, the conversation, the person that would lead us to sin. St. Isidore says, that he who wishes to remain near a serpent, will not remain long unhurt. "Juxta serpentem positus non erit diu illaesus." (Lib. 2, Solit.) Hence, if any person is likely to prove an occasion of your ruin, the admonition of the Wise Man is, "Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the doors of her house." (Prov. v. 8.) He not only tells you not to enter the house which has been to you a road to hell ("Her house is the way to hell." Prov. vii. 27); but he also cautions you not to approach it, and even to keep at a distance from it. "Remove thy way far from her." But, you will say, if I abandon that house, my temporal affairs shall suffer. It is better that you should suffer a temporal loss, than that you should lose your soul and your God. You must be persuaded that, in whatever regards chastity, there cannot be too great caution. If we wish to save our souls from sin and hell, we must always fear and tremble. "With fear and trembling work out your salvation." (Phil. ii. 12.) He who is not fearful, but exposes himself to occasions of sin, shall scarcely be saved. Hence, in our prayers we ought to say every day, and several times in the day, that petition of the OUR FATHER "and lead us not into temptation." Lord, do not permit me to be attacked by those temptations which would deprive me of your grace. We can not merit the grace of perseverance; but, according to St. Augustine, God grants it to every one that asks it, because he has promised to hear all who pray to him. Hence, the holy doctor says, that the Lord, "by His promises has made Himself a debtor."



    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #17 on: April 26, 2022, 06:08:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • He might not know what that pull leads to exactly, but it's there nevertheless.

    Toying with a temptation, entertaining an idea, can be a sin. That "second look". The first look is without sin; you didn't know what was there.
    I hope you wouldn't say I'm a heretic for saying that a man can intently behold and admire a woman and vice-versa in the same way that a man can admire a painting or a landscape. I don't believe boys are born with the impulses you describe, and it is quite possible for us to never have them, especially if we remain grossly uniformed about the practical details. Or else the Church would have clearly banned sculptures and paintings of scantily clad saints of both genders (e.g. St. Eve, the Crucifix, etc.)...

    And, I saw that posted at 05:11:55 PM... Of course, if someone feels that impulse for men or boys, then they should be concerned (see Romans 1), but that is about feeling it for them instead of women, not about not feeling it for women. A heterosɛҳuąƖ man can indeed have a visceral disgust of the natural elements one would see in a person like you described, while at the same time having an inordinate attraction to a potential candidate for matrimony. I move that people sin, at least venially, in holding whether someone has an impulse or not.

    Personally also, yes, I am more sure I will "not fall" to sixth commandment sins than any other commandment: feel free to remind me about that in either life, and that is by the grace of God, not my own holiness. No normal Catholic would ever think that their lack of propensity to a certain sin is because they're so holy... that's pelagian! However, the topic was the supposed scandal of being alone with one of the opposite gender and whether one can hold and teach that it is not a sin, not whether it is a proximate occasion of sin or not.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #18 on: April 26, 2022, 06:12:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I move that people sin, at least venially, in holding whether someone has an impulse or not.
    Correction: Whether someone else... obviously not themselves. But if person A assumes person B has lust towards person C, it is person A who is sinning, not person B. That is the gist of the issue.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #19 on: April 26, 2022, 06:22:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •  I don't believe boys are born with the impulses you describe,
    Naive much?

    Quote
    and it is quite possible for us to never have them, especially if we remain grossly uniformed about the practical details.
    Possible, but extremely rare.

    Free advice:
    Learn humility; learn to doubt yourself and your abilities, remove yourself as much as is practicable from near occasions of sin, or you will have your ass handed to you by life.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #20 on: April 26, 2022, 06:32:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Learn humility; learn to doubt yourself and your abilities, remove yourself as much as is practicable from near occasions of sin, or you will have your ass handed to you by life.
    Now, THAT is a sin... there is no need to use such crude language. I don't know anyone who doubts himself more than I do. Can't you even tell from reading my posts? And again, that was not the topic.

    Forget whether person B at 06:12:05 PM could reasonably expect to get tempted or not. The issue is that person B does not want to inconvenience himself for person A, and that person B holds that it is NOT a sin for him to do that. Is person B a heretic? No, then good, you agree.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #21 on: April 26, 2022, 08:49:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Wasn't there a prophet in the old testament that starved to death so as not to scandalize others lest they thought he was breaking a religious fast?

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #22 on: April 26, 2022, 09:00:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Wasn't there a prophet in the old testament that starved to death so as not to scandalize others lest they thought he was breaking a religious fast?
    Yes, but that obligation in charity is not the issue here. We are not talking about some lapsi with faked docuмents in antiquity. I, the OP, am postulating that it is not reasonable, but rather rash judgment, for any observer to conclude that two opposite-sex people in the same room are together to partake in grave sin.

    "Eleazar one of the chief of the scribes, a man advanced in years, and of a comely countenance, was pressed to open his mouth to eat swine's flesh... But they that stood by, being moved with wicked pity, for the old friendship they had with the man, taking him aside, desired that flesh might be brought, which it was lawful for him to eat, that he might make as if he had eaten, as the king had commanded... But he began to consider the dignity of his age... For it doth not become our age, said he, to dissemble: whereby many young persons might think that Eleazar, at the age of fourscore and ten years, was gone over to the life of the heathens: And so they, through my dissimulation, and for a little time of a corruptible life, should be deceived, and hereby I should bring a stain and a curse upon my old age... Thus did this man die, leaving not only to young men, but also to the whole nation, the memory of his death for an example of virtue and fortitude."
    -2 Maccabees 6:18-31, DRA


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #23 on: April 26, 2022, 09:49:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This excerpt is in fact broadly applicable if a few nouns and adjectives are substituted.


    "A virgin, one of the chief of the scribes, a man advanced in years, and of a comely countenance, was pressed to open his schedule to be at ease with women... But they that stood by, being moved with wicked pity, for the old friendship they had with the man, taking him aside, desired that excuse might be made, which it was lawful for him to claim, that he might make as if he were confident, as the brash had counseled ... But he began to consider the dignity of his age... For it doth not become our age, said he, to give occasion: whereby many young persons might think that a virgin, at the age of fourscore and ten years, was gone over to the lust of the heedless: And so they, through my dissimulation, and for a little time of a corruptible life, should be deceived, and hereby I should bring a stain and a curse upon my old age... Thus did this man bye, leaving not only to young men, but also to the whole nation, the memory of his purdure for an example of virtue and fortitude."

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #24 on: April 26, 2022, 10:13:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • OP,

    If you aren't convinced by that sermon from St Alphonsus posted above, you are virtually disregarding the Gospel, and Divine Grace that it is founded on.

    It may not match your experience, but it is the perennial teaching of the Church.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #25 on: April 26, 2022, 10:16:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This excerpt is in fact broadly applicable if a few nouns and adjectives are substituted.
    It does not apply or make sense whatsoever. Making a mockery of sacred scripture to express your opinion which can't be found anywhere in them... sounds like what Francis would do, but off-topic again!


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #26 on: April 26, 2022, 10:26:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • OP,

    If you aren't convinced by that sermon from St Alphonsus posted above, you are virtually disregarding the Gospel, and Divine Grace that it is founded on.

    It may not match your experience, but it is the perennial teaching of the Church.
    How is the OP disregarding the Gospel?!
    What part of the sermon addresses the question of the OP?
    - If Person A assumes that person B has lust towards person C for the sole reason they are alone together and they are of opposite sex, it is person A who is sinning, not person B.
    - Person B is NOT obligated under pain of whatsoever sin to prevent person A from making rash judgments.
    That's heresy? Prove it!
    This is NOT about whether it would be better for person B to avoid person C!

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #27 on: April 26, 2022, 10:55:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • How is the OP disregarding the Gospel?!
    What part of the sermon addresses the question of the OP?
    - If Person A assumes that person B has lust towards person C for the sole reason they are alone together and they are of opposite sex, it is person A who is sinning, not person B.
    - Person B is NOT obligated under pain of whatsoever sin to prevent person A from making rash judgments.
    That's heresy? Prove it!
    This is NOT about whether it would be better for person B to avoid person C!


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it more customary for the burden of proof to be on the person advocating for the lower standard?

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #28 on: April 26, 2022, 10:58:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Now, THAT is a sin... there is no need to use such crude language. I don't know anyone who doubts himself more than I do. Can't you even tell from reading my posts? And again, that was not the topic.

    Forget whether person B at 06:12:05 PM could reasonably expect to get tempted or not. The issue is that person B does not want to inconvenience himself for person A, and that person B holds that it is NOT a sin for him to do that. Is person B a heretic? No, then good, you agree.
    Now, THAT is a sin... there is no need to use such crude language.
    No, it is not a sin, it is using blunt speech to attempt to penetrate your thick, prideful skull.


    Quote
    I don't know anyone who doubts himself more than I do. Can't you even tell from reading my posts?
    No, you do not doubt yourself, if you did, you would not be arguing with people who have vastly greater understanding than you possess.


    Quote
    The issue is that person B does not want to inconvenience himself for person A, and that person B holds that it is NOT a sin for him to do that.
    It's all about poor you. What a terrible burden you have to bear (dripping with sarcasm).

    If you would bother to take the time to consider, you might just notice that the people who have taken their own time to respond to you in this thread are offering lessons learned from decades of study and real-life experience. Do you have either? These same people can see you headed for some hard falls and are trying to help you avoid them. 

    Below I have posted a selection from the Summa on scandal for your perusal.


    Question 43. Scandal
    Article 1. Whether scandal is fittingly defined as being something less rightly said or done that occasions spiritual downfall?
    Objection 1. It would seem that scandal is unfittingly defined as "something less rightly said or done that occasions spiritual downfall." For scandal is a sin as we shall state further on (Article 2). Now, according to Augustine (Contra Faust. xxii, 27), a sin is a "word, deed, or desire contrary to the law of God." Therefore the definition given above is insufficient, since it omits "thought" or "desire."
    Objection 2. Further, since among virtuous or right acts one is more virtuous or more right than another, that one alone which has perfect rectitude would not seem to be a "less" right one. If, therefore, scandal is something "less" rightly said or done, it follows that every virtuous act except the best of all, is a scandal.
    Objection 3. Further, an occasion is an accidental cause. But nothing accidental should enter a definition, because it does not specify the thing defined. Therefore it is unfitting, in defining scandal, to say that it is an "occasion."
    Objection 4. Further, whatever a man does may be the occasion of another's spiritual downfall, because accidental causes are indeterminate. Consequently, if scandal is something that occasions another's spiritual downfall, any deed or word can be a scandal: and this seems unreasonable.
    Objection 5. Further, a man occasions his neighbor's spiritual downfall when he offends or weakens him. Now scandal is condivided with offense and weakness, for the Apostle says (Romans 14:21): "It is good not to eat flesh, and not to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother is offended or scandalized, or weakened." Therefore the aforesaid definition of scandal is unfitting.
    On the contrary, Jerome in expounding Matthew 15:12, "Dost thou know that the Pharisees, when they heard this word," etc. says: "When we read 'Whosoever shall scandalize,' the sense is 'Whosoever shall, by deed or word, occasion another's spiritual downfall.'"
    I answer that, As Jerome observes the Greek skandalon may be rendered offense, downfall, or a stumbling against something. For when a body, while moving along a path, meets with an obstacle, it may happen to stumble against it, and be disposed to fall down: such an obstacle is a skandalon.
    In like manner, while going along the spiritual way, a man may be disposed to a spiritual downfall by another's word or deed, in so far, to wit, as one man by his injunction, inducement or example, moves another to sin; and this is scandal properly so called.
    Now nothing by its very nature disposes a man to spiritual downfall, except that which has some lack of rectitude, since what is perfectly right, secures man against a fall, instead of conducing to his downfall. Scandal is, therefore, fittingly defined as "something less rightly done or said, that occasions another's spiritual downfall."
    Reply to Objection 1. The thought or desire of evil lies hidden in the heart, wherefore it does not suggest itself to another man as an obstacle conducing to his spiritual downfall: hence it cannot come under the head of scandal.
    Reply to Objection 2. A thing is said to be less right, not because something else surpasses it in rectitude, but because it has some lack of rectitude, either through being evil in itself, such as sin, or through having an appearance of evil. Thus, for instance, if a man were to "sit at meat in the idol's temple" (1 Corinthians 8:10), though this is not sinful in itself, provided it be done with no evil intention, yet, since it has a certain appearance of evil, and a semblance of worshipping the idol, it might occasion another man's spiritual downfall. Hence the Apostle says (1 Thessalonians 5:22): "From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves." Scandal is therefore fittingly described as something done "less rightly," so as to comprise both whatever is sinful in itself, and all that has an appearance of evil.
    Reply to Objection 3. As stated above (I-II:75:2; I-II:75:3; I-II:80:1), nothing can be a sufficient cause of a man's spiritual downfall, which is sin, save his own will. Wherefore another man's words or deeds can only be an imperfect cause, conducing somewhat to that downfall. For this reason scandal is said to afford not a cause, but an occasion, which is an imperfect, and not always an accidental cause. Nor is there any reason why certain definitions should not make mention of things that are accidental, since what is accidental to one, may be proper to something else: thus the accidental cause is mentioned in the definition of chance (Phys. ii, 5).
    Reply to Objection 4. Another's words or deed may be the cause of another's sin in two ways, directly and accidentally. Directly, when a man either intends, by his evil word or deed, to lead another man into sin, or, if he does not so intend, when his deed is of such a nature as to lead another into sin: for instance, when a man publicly commits a sin or does something that has an appearance of sin. On this case he that does such an act does, properly speaking, afford an occasion of another's spiritual downfall, wherefore his act is called "active scandal." One man's word or deed is the accidental cause of another's sin, when he neither intends to lead him into sin, nor does what is of a nature to lead him into sin, and yet this other one, through being ill-disposed, is led into sin, for instance, into envy of another's good, and then he who does this righteous act, does not, so far as he is concerned, afford an occasion of the other's downfall, but it is this other one who takes the occasion according to Romans 7:8: "Sin taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence." Wherefore this is "passive," without "active scandal," since he that acts rightly does not, for his own part, afford the occasion of the other's downfall. Sometimes therefore it happens that there is active scandal in the one together with passive scandal in the other, as when one commits a sin being induced thereto by another; sometimes there is active without passive scandal, for instance when one, by word or deed, provokes another to sin, and the latter does not consent; and sometimes there is passive without active scandal, as we have already said.
    Reply to Objection 5. "Weakness" denotes proneness to scandal; while "offense" signifies resentment against the person who commits a sin, which resentment may be sometimes without spiritual downfall; and "scandal" is the stumbling that results in downfall.
    Article 2. Whether scandal is a sin?
    Objection 1. It would seem that scandal is not a sin. For sins do not occur from necessity, since all sin is voluntary, as stated above (I-II:74:1 and I-II:74:2). Now it is written (Matthew 18:7): "It must needs be that scandals come." Therefore scandal is not a sin.
    Objection 2. Further, no sin arises from a sense of dutifulness, because "a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit" (Matthew 7:18). But scandal may come from a sense of dutifulness, for Our Lord said to Peter (Matthew 16:23): "Thou art a scandal unto Me," in reference to which words Jerome says that "the Apostle's error was due to his sense of dutifulness, and such is never inspired by the devil." Therefore scandal is not always a sin.
    Objection 3. Further, scandal denotes a stumbling. But he that stumbles does not always fall. Therefore scandal, which is a spiritual fall, can be without sin.
    On the contrary, Scandal is "something less rightly said or done." Now anything that lacks rectitude is a sin. Therefore scandal is always with sin.
    I answer that, As already said (Article 1, Reply to Objection 4), scandal is of two kinds, passive scandal in the person scandalized, and active scandal in the person who gives scandal, and so occasions a spiritual downfall. Accordingly passive scandal is always a sin in the person scandalized; for he is not scandalized except in so far as he succuмbs to a spiritual downfall, and that is a sin.
    Yet there can be passive scandal, without sin on the part of the person whose action has occasioned the scandal, as for instance, when a person is scandalized at another's good deed. On like manner active scandal is always a sin in the person who gives scandal, since either what he does is a sin, or if it only have the appearance of sin, it should always be left undone out of that love for our neighbor which binds each one to be solicitous for his neighbor's spiritual welfare; so that if he persist in doing it he acts against charity.
    Yet there can be active scandal without sin on the part of the person scandalized, as stated above (Article 1, Reply to Objection 4).
    Reply to Objection 1. These words, "It must needs be that scandals come," are to be understood to convey, not the absolute, but the conditional necessity of scandal; in which sense it is necessary that whatever God foresees or foretells must happen, provided it be taken conjointly with such foreknowledge, as explained in I:14:13 ad 3; I:23:6 ad 2.
    Or we may say that the necessity of scandals occurring is a necessity of end, because they are useful in order that "they . . . who are reproved may be made manifest" (1 Corinthians 11:19).
    Or scandals must needs occur, seeing the condition of man who fails to shield himself from sin. Thus a physician on seeing a man partaking of unsuitable food might say that such a man must needs injure his health, which is to be understood on the condition that he does not change his diet. On like manner it must needs be that scandals come, so long as men fail to change their evil mode of living.
    Reply to Objection 2. In that passage scandal denotes any kind of hindrance: for Peter wished to hinder Our Lord's Passion out of a sense of dutifulness towards Christ.
    Reply to Objection 3. No man stumbles spiritually, without being kept back somewhat from advancing in God's way, and that is at least a venial sin.
    Article 3. Whether scandal is a special sin?
    Objection 1. It would seem that scandal is not a special sin. For scandal is "something said or done less rightly." But this applies to every kind of sin. Therefore every sin is a scandal, and consequently, scandal is not a special sin.
    Objection 2. Further, every special kind of sin, or every special kind of injustice, may be found separately from other kinds, as stated in Ethic. v, 3,5. But scandal is not to be found separately from other sins. Therefore it is not a special kind of sin.
    Objection 3. Further, every special sin is constituted by something which specifies the moral act. But the notion of scandal consists in its being something done in the presence of others: and the fact of a sin being committed openly, though it is an aggravating circuмstance, does not seem to constitute the species of a sin. Therefore scandal is not a special sin.
    On the contrary, A special virtue has a special sin opposed to it. But scandal is opposed to a special virtue, viz. charity. For it is written (Romans 14:15): "If, because of thy meat, thy brother be grieved, thou walkest not now according to charity." Therefore scandal is a special sin.
    I answer that, As stated above (Article 2), scandal is twofold, active and passive. Passive scandal cannot be a special sin, because through another's word or deed a man may fall into any kind of sin: and the fact that a man takes occasion to sin from another's word or deed, does not constitute a special kind of sin, because it does not imply a special deformity in opposition to a special virtue.
    On the other hand, active scandal may be understood in two ways, directly and accidently. The scandal is accidental when it is beside the agent's intention, as when a man does not intend, by his inordinate deed or word, to occasion another's spiritual downfall, but merely to satisfy his own will. On such a case even active scandal is not a special sin, because a species is not constituted by that which is accidental.
    Active scandal is direct when a man intends, by his inordinate word or deed, to draw another into sin, and then it becomes a special kind of sin on account of the intention of a special kind of end, because moral actions take their species from their end, as stated above (I-II:1:3; I-II:18:4; I-II:18:6). Hence, just as theft and murder are special kinds of sin, on account of their denoting the intention of doing a special injury to one's neighbor: so too, scandal is a special kind of sin, because thereby a man intends a special harm to his neighbor, and it is directly opposed to fraternal correction, whereby a man intends the removal of a special kind of harm.
    Reply to Objection 1. Any sin may be the matter of active scandal, but it may derive the formal aspect of a special sin from the end intended, as stated above.
    Reply to Objection 2. Active scandal can be found separate from other sins, as when a man scandalizes his neighbor by a deed which is not a sin in itself, but has an appearance of evil.
    Reply to Objection 3. Scandal does not derive the species of a special sin from the circuмstance in question, but from the intention of the end, as stated above.
    Article 4. Whether scandal is a mortal sin?
    Objection 1. It would seem that scandal is a mortal sin. For every sin that is contrary to charity is a mortal sin, as stated above (II-II:24:12; II-II:35:3). But scandal is contrary to charity, as stated above (Articles 2 and 3). Therefore scandal is a mortal sin.
    Objection 2. Further, no sin, save mortal sin, deserves the punishment of eternal damnation. But scandal deserves the punishment of eternal damnation, according to Matthew 18:6: "He that shall scandalize one of these little ones, that believe in Me, it were better for him that a mill-stone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea." For, as Jerome says on this passage, "it is much better to receive a brief punishment for a fault, than to await everlasting torments." Therefore scandal is a mortal sin.
    Objection 3. Further, every sin committed against God is a mortal sin, because mortal sin alone turns man away from God. Now scandal is a sin against God, for the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 8:12): "When you wound the weak conscience of the brethren [Vulgate: 'When you sin thus against the brethren and wound their weak conscience'], you sin against Christ." Therefore scandal is always a mortal sin.
    On the contrary, It may be a venial sin to lead a person into venial sin: and yet this would be to give scandal. Therefore scandal may be a venial sin.
    I answer that, As stated above (Article 1), scandal denotes a stumbling whereby a person is disposed to a spiritual downfall. Consequently passive scandal may sometimes be a venial sin, when it consists in a stumbling and nothing more; for instance, when a person is disturbed by a movement of venial sin occasioned by another's inordinate word or deed: while sometimes it is a mortal sin, when the stumbling results in a downfall, for instance, when a person goes so far as to commit a mortal sin through another's inordinate word or deed.
    Active scandal, if it be accidental, may sometimes be a venial sin; for instance, when, through a slight indiscretion, a person either commits a venial sin, or does something that is not a sin in itself, but has some appearance of evil. On the other hand, it is sometimes a mortal sin, either because a person commits a mortal sin, or because he has such contempt for his neighbor's spiritual welfare that he declines, for the sake of procuring it, to forego doing what he wishes to do. But in the case of active direct scandal, as when a person intends to lead another into sin, if he intends to lead him into mortal sin, his own sin will be mortal; and in like manner if he intends by committing a mortal sin himself, to lead another into venial sin; whereas if he intends, by committing a venial sin, to lead another into venial sin, there will be a venial sin of scandal.
    And this suffices for the Replies to the Objections.
    Article 5. Whether passive scandal may happen even to the perfect?
    Objection 1. It would seem that passive scandal may happen even to the perfect. For Christ was supremely perfect: and yet He said to Peter (Matthew 16:23): "Thou art a scandal to Me." Much more therefore can other perfect men suffer scandal.
    Objection 2. Further, scandal denotes an obstacle which is put in a person's spiritual way. Now even perfect men can be hindered in their progress along the spiritual way, according to 1 Thessalonians 2:18: "We would have come to you, I Paul indeed, once and again; but Satan hath hindered us." Therefore even perfect men can suffer scandal.
    Objection 3. Further, even perfect men are liable to venial sins, according to 1 John 1:8: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves." Now passive scandal is not always a mortal sin, but is sometimes venial, as stated above (Article 4). Therefore passive scandal may be found in perfect men.
    On the contrary, Jerome, in commenting on Matthew 18:6, "He that shall scandalize one of these little ones," says: "Observe that it is the little one that is scandalized, for the elders do not take scandal."
    I answer that, Passive scandal implies that the mind of the person who takes scandal is unsettled in its adherence to good. Now no man can be unsettled, who adheres firmly to something immovable. The elders, i.e. the perfect, adhere to God alone, Whose goodness is unchangeable, for though they adhere to their superiors, they do so only in so far as these adhere to Christ, according to 1 Corinthians 4:16: "Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ." Wherefore, however much others may appear to them to conduct themselves ill in word or deed, they themselves do not stray from their righteousness, according to Psalm 124:1: "They that trust in the Lord shall be as Mount Sion: he shall not be moved for ever that dwelleth in Jerusalem." Therefore scandal is not found in those who adhere to God perfectly by love, according to Psalm 118:165: "Much peace have they that love Thy law, and to them there is no stumbling-block [scandalum]."
    Reply to Objection 1. As stated above (Article 2, Reply to Objection 2), in this passage, scandal is used in a broad sense, to denote any kind of hindrance. Hence Our Lord said to Peter: "Thou art a scandal to Me," because he was endeavoring to weaken Our Lord's purpose of undergoing His Passion.
    Reply to Objection 2. Perfect men may be hindered in the performance of external actions. But they are not hindered by the words or deeds of others, from tending to God in the internal acts of the will, according to Romans 8:38-39: "Neither death, nor life . . . shall be able to separate us from the love of God."
    Reply to Objection 3. Perfect men sometimes fall into venial sins through the weakness of the flesh; but they are not scandalized (taking scandal in its true sense), by the words or deeds of others, although there can be an approach to scandal in them, according to Psalm 72:2: "My feet were almost moved."
    Article 6. Whether active scandal can be found in the perfect?
    Objection 1. It would seem that active scandal can be found in the perfect. For passion is the effect of action. Now some are scandalized passively by the words or deeds of the perfect, according to Matthew 15:12: "Dost thou know that the Pharisees, when they heard this word, were scandalized?" Therefore active scandal can be found in the perfect.
    Objection 2. Further, Peter, after receiving the Holy Ghost, was in the state of the perfect. Yet afterwards he scandalized the gentiles: for it is written (Galatians 2:14): "When I saw that they walked not uprightly unto the truth of the Gospel, I said to Cephas," i.e. Peter, "before them all: If thou being a Jєω, livest after the manner of the gentiles, and not as the Jєωs do, how dost thou compel the gentiles to live as do the Jєωs?" Therefore active scandal can be in the perfect.
    Objection 3. Further, active scandal is sometimes a venial sin. But venial sins may be in perfect men. Therefore active scandal may be in perfect men.
    On the contrary, Active scandal is more opposed to perfection, than passive scandal. But passive scandal cannot be in the perfect. Much less, therefore, can active scandal be in them.
    I answer that, Active scandal, properly so called, occurs when a man says or does a thing which in itself is of a nature to occasion another's spiritual downfall, and that is only when what he says or does is inordinate. Now it belongs to the perfect to direct all their actions according to the rule of reason, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:40: "Let all things be done decently and according to order"; and they are careful to do this in those matters chiefly wherein not only would they do wrong, but would also be to others an occasion of wrongdoing. And if indeed they fail in this moderation in such words or deeds as come to the knowledge of others, this has its origin in human weakness wherein they fall short of perfection. Yet they do not fall short so far as to stray far from the order of reason, but only a little and in some slight matter: and this is not so grave that anyone can reasonably take therefrom an occasion for committing sin.
    Reply to Objection 1. Passive scandal is always due to some active scandal; yet this active scandal is not always in another, but in the very person who is scandalized, because, to wit, he scandalizes himself.
    Reply to Objection 2. In the opinion of Augustine (Ep. xxviii, xl, lxxxii) and of Paul also, Peter sinned and was to be blamed, in withdrawing from the gentiles in order to avoid the scandal of the Jєωs, because he did this somewhat imprudently, so that the gentiles who had been converted to the faith were scandalized. Nevertheless Peter's action was not so grave a sin as to give others sufficient ground for scandal. Hence they were guilty of passive scandal, while there was no active scandal in Peter.
    Reply to Objection 3. The venial sins of the perfect consist chiefly in sudden movements, which being hidden cannot give scandal. If, however, they commit any venial sins even in their external words or deeds, these are so slight as to be insufficient in themselves to give scandal.
    Article 7. Whether spiritual goods should be foregone on account of scandal?
    Objection 1. It would seem that spiritual goods ought to be foregone on account of scandal. For Augustine (Contra Ep. Parmen. iii, 2) teaches that "punishment for sin should cease, when the peril of schism is feared." But punishment of sins is a spiritual good, since it is an act of justice. Therefore a spiritual good is to be foregone on account of scandal.
    Objection 2. Further, the Sacred Doctrine is a most spiritual thing. Yet one ought to desist therefrom on account of scandal, according to Matthew 7:6: "Give not that which is holy to dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine lest . . . turning upon you, they tear you." Therefore a spiritual good should be foregone on account of scandal.
    Objection 3. Further, since fraternal correction is an act of charity, it is a spiritual good. Yet sometimes it is omitted out of charity, in order to avoid giving scandal to others, as Augustine observes (De Civ. Dei i, 9). Therefore a spiritual good should be foregone on account of scandal.
    Objection 4. Further, Jerome [Hugh de S. Cher, In Matth. xviii; in Luc. xvii, 2 says that in order to avoid scandal we should forego whatever it is possible to omit without prejudice to the threefold truth, i.e. "the truth of life, of justice and of doctrine." Now the observance of the counsels, and the bestowal of alms may often be omitted without prejudice to the aforesaid threefold truth, else whoever omitted them would always be guilty of sin, and yet such things are the greatest of spiritual works. Therefore spiritual works should be omitted on account of scandal.
    Objection 5. Further, the avoidance of any sin is a spiritual good, since any sin brings spiritual harm to the sinner. Now it seems that one ought sometimes to commit a venial sin in order to avoid scandalizing one's neighbor, for instance, when by sinning venially, one would prevent someone else from committing a mortal sin: because one is bound to hinder the damnation of one's neighbor as much as one can without prejudice to one's own salvation, which is not precluded by a venial sin. Therefore one ought to forego a spiritual good in order to avoid scandal.
    On the contrary, Gregory says (Hom. Super Ezech. vii): "If people are scandalized at the truth, it is better to allow the birth of scandal, than to abandon the truth." Now spiritual goods belong, above all others, to the truth. Therefore spiritual goods are not to be foregone on account of scandal.
    I answer that, Whereas scandal is twofold, active and passive, the present question does not apply to active scandal, for since active scandal is "something said or done less rightly," nothing ought to be done that implies active scandal. The question does, however, apply to passive scandal, and accordingly we have to see what ought to be foregone in order to avoid scandal. Now a distinction must be made in spiritual goods. For some of them are necessary for salvation, and cannot be foregone without mortal sin: and it is evident that no man ought to commit a mortal sin, in order to prevent another from sinning, because according to the order of charity, a man ought to love his own spiritual welfare more than another's. Therefore one ought not to forego that which is necessary for salvation, in order to avoid giving scandal.
    Again a distinction seems necessary among spiritual things which are not necessary for salvation: because the scandal which arises from such things sometimes proceeds from malice, for instance when a man wishes to hinder those spiritual goods by stirring up scandal. This is the "scandal of the Pharisees," who were scandalized at Our Lord's teaching: and Our Lord teaches (Matthew 15:14) that we ought to treat such like scandal with contempt. Sometimes scandal proceeds from weakness or ignorance, and such is the "scandal of little ones." On order to avoid this kind of scandal, spiritual goods ought to be either concealed, or sometimes even deferred (if this can be done without incurring immediate danger), until the matter being explained the scandal cease. If, however, the scandal

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Opposite Gender Proximate Presence Not Sinful
    « Reply #29 on: April 26, 2022, 11:39:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I hope you wouldn't say I'm a heretic for saying that a man can intently behold and admire a woman and vice-versa in the same way that a man can admire a painting or a landscape. I don't believe boys are born with the impulses you describe, and it is quite possible for us to never have them, especially if we remain grossly uniformed about the practical details. Or else the Church would have clearly banned sculptures and paintings of scantily clad saints of both genders (e.g. St. Eve, the Crucifix, etc.)...

    And, I saw that posted at 05:11:55 PM... Of course, if someone feels that impulse for men or boys, then they should be concerned (see Romans 1), but that is about feeling it for them instead of women, not about not feeling it for women. A heterosɛҳuąƖ man can indeed have a visceral disgust of the natural elements one would see in a person like you described, while at the same time having an inordinate attraction to a potential candidate for matrimony. I move that people sin, at least venially, in holding whether someone has an impulse or not.

    Personally also, yes, I am more sure I will "not fall" to sixth commandment sins than any other commandment: feel free to remind me about that in either life, and that is by the grace of God, not my own holiness. No normal Catholic would ever think that their lack of propensity to a certain sin is because they're so holy... that's pelagian! However, the topic was the supposed scandal of being alone with one of the opposite gender and whether one can hold and teach that it is not a sin, not whether it is a proximate occasion of sin or not.
    Do you care little for eating? Some indivuals are much less disposed to being enticed by the senses. Perhaps you are one of them, but the vast majority are not.