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Author Topic: Old Catholic Seminary  (Read 2871 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Old Catholic Seminary
« on: April 18, 2013, 09:30:54 PM »
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  • I know the Old Catholic Church is schismatic and heretical, but their Rites of ordination are still valid. If a trad man feels called to the priesthood, but he cannot go to an SSPX seminary due to costs and student loan debt, would it be wrong and discouraged for him to go through an Old Catholic seminary just for the sole purpose of being ordained? Afterward, he would open an independent trad chapel or join one of the trad groups like SSPX or CMRI. Despite going through the Old Catholic seminary, he would still be intent on learning, defending and teaching the true Catholic Faith and Tridentine Mass.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Old Catholic Seminary
    « Reply #1 on: April 18, 2013, 09:55:12 PM »
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  • Absolutely it would be wrong.

    I think you'll find that even those who have gone to receive orders from the Old Catholics have later publicly regretted it.  

    What makes you assume that they would accept you with loans and debt?  Even if they would, it sounds suspiciously like running to the cloth to avoid the responsibilities of these debts.  Not good.

    If you did, you would then find yourself a priest who had no idea how to be a priest.  Not to mention the danger to your faith.  Better to go to a Novus Ordo seminary, since then at least the garbage they teach you will end in dubious orders, and you won't be in a position where you will be scamming faithful Catholics and being lousy priest for them.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Änσnymσus

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    Old Catholic Seminary
    « Reply #2 on: April 18, 2013, 10:02:59 PM »
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  • It's wrong to associate with people who are basically Protestants and who have a prideful opposition to the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Validity should not factor into your decision.

    Änσnymσus

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    Old Catholic Seminary
    « Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 10:47:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Absolutely it would be wrong.

    I think you'll find that even those who have gone to receive orders from the Old Catholics have later publicly regretted it.  

    What makes you assume that they would accept you with loans and debt?  Even if they would, it sounds suspiciously like running to the cloth to avoid the responsibilities of these debts.  Not good.

    If you did, you would then find yourself a priest who had no idea how to be a priest.  Not to mention the danger to your faith.  Better to go to a Novus Ordo seminary, since then at least the garbage they teach you will end in dubious orders, and you won't be in a position where you will be scamming faithful Catholics and being lousy priest for them.


    I'm not personally considering it. It's just a hypothetical question, and I wondered how other trads viewed it. Those are very good points you made, along with the other person's comment about associating with people who pridefully reject the Immaculate Conception, and who are basically protestants.

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    Old Catholic Seminary
    « Reply #4 on: April 19, 2013, 04:12:04 PM »
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  • Where is this Old Catholic seminary?

    All kidding aside, I've never been able to locate any Old Catholic Churches.



    Änσnymσus

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    Old Catholic Seminary
    « Reply #5 on: April 19, 2013, 04:57:41 PM »
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  • Francis Schuckardt, formerly the leader of the CMRI received orders from the Old Catholics, so it has been thought of and done before. I don't think it is as common now though as traditional Catholics can go to one of the many Thuc-line Bishops for orders.

    Offline Sigismund

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    Old Catholic Seminary
    « Reply #6 on: April 20, 2013, 10:39:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    Where is this Old Catholic seminary?

    All kidding aside, I've never been able to locate any Old Catholic Churches.



    Look here:  http://www.concentric.net/~cosmas/ind_catholic_main_.htm

    The not all of the jurisdictions listed are Old Catholic.  The include traditionalist Anglicans and several trad Catholic groups.  However, this will give you a convention listing for many Old Catholic groups.  Some of them are conservative, most are very liberal, and many ordain women and practicing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs.  

    It is not a safe bet that Old Catholic jurisdictions have valid orders.  The original Dutch Old Catholics do, or at least they did until they began tolerating women's ordination.  I don't know if  there has been a recent Vatican pronouncement on them.  Anyone who attended one of their "seminaries" which are generally on-line creations of very dubious academic standing, would learn nothing about the traditional Mass.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #7 on: April 20, 2013, 10:40:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    Francis Schuckardt, formerly the leader of the CMRI received orders from the Old Catholics, so it has been thought of and done before. I don't think it is as common now though as traditional Catholics can go to one of the many Thuc-line Bishops for orders.


    He did.  Look how that worked out.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


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    Old Catholic Seminary
    « Reply #8 on: April 27, 2013, 01:09:56 AM »
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  • You should be careful about them. They have "ordination" of women as priests and bishops. This places the validity of their sacraments in doubt.

    Offline Matthew

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    Old Catholic Seminary
    « Reply #9 on: April 27, 2013, 02:05:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    You should be careful about them. They have "ordination" of women as priests and bishops. This places the validity of their sacraments in doubt.


    That is a case study in how you can go from right-wing extremist (excuse the modern loaded buzz-word) to left-wing extremist.

    The Old Catholics presume to reject Vatican I and the Catholic Church that followed this Ecuмenical Council. So they are more traditional than Traditional Catholics, right? Extremely right-wing or conservative. No one is more trad than them!

    But they ordain women? Guess what -- The average Novus Ordo layman/priest/bishop is against that. So your behavior is roughly in line with the extreme liberal elements in the Novus Ordo.

    That's how the devil gets ya.

    Likewise, I know a Traditional priest ordained before VII that got himself consecrated, and proceeded to ordain one man a permanent deacon. Permanent deacon? Is that traditional? Of course it isn't. It's a Novus Ordo novelty. But this priest, extremely conservative, flipped over into this error.
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    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #10 on: April 27, 2013, 02:09:05 AM »
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  • And the classic case for a layman:

    You go on retreat, and in your fervor (spurred on by the devil) you decide to fast on bread and water for 40 days.

    On day 10 you snap, and give up fasting altogether. In fact, you get a bit more into "food" than you were before you went on the retreat in the first place.

    Who wins?

    Let's see. Joe Layman went on a reteat, and 3 weeks later he's more of a food connoisseur than he was before. He's taken several decisive steps toward gluttony (and possibly lust).

    The devil is content to tempt you to defect OR excess; he couldn't care less which.

    And the funny thing is -- those extreme positions are closer to each other than you think. Just like the old Two Great Superpowers are extremely close to each other near the Arctic Circle...
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    Änσnymσus

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    Old Catholic Seminary
    « Reply #11 on: April 27, 2013, 08:05:00 PM »
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  • The big danger that faces SSPX / Bp. Williamson now is that because there is division, each needs to differentiate from the other in order to show justification for the respective position held. The task for laity will be no less difficult in working out which, if any, remain true to the faith. Only time can tell.

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    Old Catholic Seminary
    « Reply #12 on: April 28, 2013, 04:34:13 AM »
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  • The Old Catholics are Heretics.

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #13 on: April 28, 2013, 04:57:28 AM »
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  • Those are good examples of how extremes really aren't necessarily opposite, Matthew.  In the political realm, I'm always amazed at how the nαzιs are considered "far-right" while the communists are "far-left".  But when you examine the actual ideology, it's impossible to tell the difference.  It's like a circle and the far-right and far-left simply meet.

    The same applies in the religious realm.  What's more, most heresies begin as an over-reaction to a previous heresy.  Thus, through the centuries, heretics seem to shift from one extreme to the other.  This is why the Church has always told us to follow tradition.

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    Old Catholic Seminary
    « Reply #14 on: April 28, 2013, 06:23:26 AM »
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  • The Old Catholics were always liberals Matthew, that's why they rejected infallibility.  

    And rejecting infallibility wasn't about being more Catholic than the Pope.  It was about rejecting what was always implicit in Catholic Tradition, because they were liberals.

    No one should get the wrong idea about this:

    saying things like "right wing extremists become left-wing extremists" and using the Old Catholics as an example couldn't be more wrong.

    They were liberals, which is why they have women's ordination, for example.