Author Topic: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?  (Read 1250 times)

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Anonymous

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NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
« on: December 02, 2019, 10:50:41 AM »
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  • If a husband were to for example, touch his wife's breasts or buttocks, would that be sinful?
    Is it permissible for the husband to do it outside of the marital act?

    Anonymous

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #1 on: December 02, 2019, 12:12:43 PM »
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  • Yes it is. As long as everything finishes up in the right place. Catholics are not Puritans or Manichaeans. Since we are not Manichaeans, we don't believe in an evilgod. So this evilgod couldn't have created the physical world, the body, or sex. In unrelated news, you can drink alcohol too, in moderation. Tell the Baptists and Muslims to take a hike. You can also eat meat. Tell the Hindus, Jews, Vegans, and Climate Alarmists to jump in the lake. Moral of the story, error is everywhere.


    Anonymous

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #2 on: December 02, 2019, 12:23:06 PM »
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  • If a husband were to for example, touch his wife's breasts or buttocks, would that be sinful?
    Is it permissible for the husband to do it outside of the marital act?
    It can be sin or occasion of sin outside the intention to complete the marital act or if the spouse objects to such touches. However, If the spouse consents and these touches are used in preparation for the marital act, then it would not be a sin.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #3 on: December 02, 2019, 12:27:16 PM »
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  • If a husband were to for example, touch his wife's breasts or buttocks, would that be sinful?
    Is it permissible for the husband to do it outside of the marital act?
    No, and yes, in that order.
    There might be some extremely strict --- far stricter than anything the Church teaches --- people who would say otherwise, but I am not concerned with them.  I cannot imagine that any SSPX, FSSP, ICKSP, even CMRI, SSPV, or SGG priest would be that strict.

    Anonymous

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #4 on: December 02, 2019, 12:28:23 PM »
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  • Oh, come on now, a husband can touch his wife's breasts or buttocks at any time without sin.  There need not be a proximate intention to consummate the marriage act, as a certain amount of intimacy can entail a remote preparation for such activity.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #5 on: December 02, 2019, 03:53:18 PM »
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  • Oh, come on now, a husband can touch his wife's breasts or buttocks at any time without sin.  There need not be a proximate intention to consummate the marriage act, as a certain amount of intimacy can entail a remote preparation for such activity.
    If you are responding to my comments, I reaffirmed that this is not sinful, and was submitting that no priest I can imagine, would ever say this is sinful.  Way, way out on the fringes of the internet, you will find websites that make some pretty outlandish assertions --- that the BVM is God, that there has been no valid pope since Pius IX (yes, Pio Nono, as in Syllabus of Errors Pius IX), that there has been no valid pope since around AD 1100, and so on.  On sites like that, yes, you might find an assertion such as the one you cite.  But other than sites like that, I don't think so.


    The closest thing I can imagine would be a couple who is practicing NFP but has a certain difficulty with abstinence and, as a result of engaging in such licit embraces, might be tempted to alleviate their concupiscence through masturbation or non-procreative acts.  But that does not make the intimacies in themselves sinful.  Another close analogy would be when couples are involuntarily separated for a time (e.g., military service, husband has to travel with his job, wife has to go stay with an infirm family member), and reflecting on each other's physical attributes, and intimacies they have shared, could cause them to fall into solitary vice.

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #6 on: December 02, 2019, 04:50:50 PM »
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  • If a husband were to for example, touch his wife's breasts or buttocks, would that be sinful?
    Is it permissible for the husband to do it outside of the marital act?

    I sure hope the answer to the first is in the negative while the answer to the second in the affirmative, otherwise... I'm in trouble.

    Anonymous

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #7 on: December 02, 2019, 05:44:23 PM »
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  • Has anyone got any sources or books from traditionalist sources on this topic?


    Anonymous

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #8 on: December 02, 2019, 06:00:22 PM »
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  • Has anyone got any sources or books from traditionalist sources on this topic?
    Buy this book, it gives you the Catholic principles on when certain pleasures become licit or illicit.
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895554720/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0895554720&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20

    Anonymous

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #9 on: December 02, 2019, 06:15:39 PM »
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  • But this same book contains this, which greatly confuses me: 
    "Excluding the sodomitical intention it is neither sodomy nor a grave sin if intercourse is begun in a rectal manner with the intention of consummating it naturally or if some sodomitical actionis posited without danger of pollution. - Positive cooperation on the part of the wife in sodomitical commerce is never lawful, hence, she must at least offer internal resistance. However, she may remain externally passive, provided she has endeavored to prevent the sin. She thus applies the principle of double effect and permits the sin to avert the danger of a very grave evil which cannot otherwise be averted; it remains unlawful for her to give her consent to any concomitant pleasure."
    Also this: 
    "Wives who do not obtain complete satisfaction may procure it by touches imediately before or after coition since the husband may withdraw immediately after ejaculation. Some authors believe she may do so also when the husband withdraws in an onanistic manner. The same cannot be said of the husband should the wife withdraw since the seed would thus be wasted."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #10 on: December 02, 2019, 06:19:46 PM »
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  • If you are responding to my comments, I reaffirmed that this is not sinful, and was submitting that no priest I can imagine, would ever say this is sinful.

    No, this was a general response.


    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #11 on: December 02, 2019, 08:20:20 PM »
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  • Buy this book, it gives you the Catholic principles on when certain pleasures become licit or illicit.
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895554720/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0895554720&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

    I looked up the reviews on Amazon.  Below is a screenshot of the top one.  I don't think the term 'orthodox' means what the reviewer thinks it means. :cowboy:


    Anonymous

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #12 on: December 02, 2019, 08:59:40 PM »
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  • I sure hope the answer to the first is in the negative while the answer to the second in the affirmative, otherwise... I'm in trouble.
    And someone else I know, who will remain anonymous!
    I wonder if the OP is a troll wanting to make fun of Catholics.

    Anonymous

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #13 on: December 03, 2019, 01:12:18 PM »
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  • Proverbs 5 pretty explicitly describes and condones this. 

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: NSFW Is foreplay permissible in a Catholic marriage?
    « Reply #14 on: December 03, 2019, 07:41:20 PM »
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  • But this same book contains this, which greatly confuses me:
    "Excluding the sodomitical intention it is neither sodomy nor a grave sin if intercourse is begun in a rectal manner with the intention of consummating it naturally or if some sodomitical actionis posited without danger of pollution. - Positive cooperation on the part of the wife in sodomitical commerce is never lawful, hence, she must at least offer internal resistance. However, she may remain externally passive, provided she has endeavored to prevent the sin. She thus applies the principle of double effect and permits the sin to avert the danger of a very grave evil which cannot otherwise be averted; it remains unlawful for her to give her consent to any concomitant pleasure."
    Also this:
    "Wives who do not obtain complete satisfaction may procure it by touches imediately before or after coition since the husband may withdraw immediately after ejaculation. Some authors believe she may do so also when the husband withdraws in an onanistic manner. The same cannot be said of the husband should the wife withdraw since the seed would thus be wasted."
    The first passage is the most problematical thing about Jone's book (at least of which I'm aware, I haven't read the entire book --- it's meant to be used as a reference work).  Where in the world did he come up with such a thing?  Jone does not use footnotes nor cite sources, at least not in the main --- his book is just a distillation of majority opinions on various points of morality.  Why anyone would do the act he cites, and contend with the hygenic issues involved, is beyond me.  I have heard of irreligious and secular people singing the praises of this act within a heterosexual relationship --- a very crude female coworker of mine in the business world, who had no filter, boasted of providing this favor to her husband (miserere nobis, Domine!) --- but it is either an abomination, or something very close to it.  I have to wonder if this was some kind of clumsy translation from the original German.


    I can't see the problem with the second passage.  There is anecdotal evidence that the woman bringing herself to climax manually as part of the marital act, or allowing her husband to do this for her, is helpful in attaining pregnancy.  That may just be an old wives' tale.

     

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