Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on January 17, 2024, 10:53:31 AM
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I am scheduled for my fourth C-Section in April. We live in a very rural area. Our hospital covers little towns within a 2 hour radius and specialists come in once a month for higher risk patients. My doctor isn’t comfortable doing a 4th C-Section, so she assigned me to the specialist that comes in. I had my first appointment with him a couple days ago, and I feel like such an idiot for not anticipating pressure and scare tactics.
The first question he asked me was is during the surgery if I wanted to just go ahead and get my tubes tied. I said no. He proceeded to tell me all of the risks of not doing so. Of course I want to know ALL of the risks of my situation, but what bothers me is how he pressured me to sign a docuмent giving him the option to do the tubal ligation in an emergency if there was something terribly wrong with my uterus and a decision had to be made on the spot. He assured me over and over again that if there was no need then the paper would mean nothing, he’d just tear it up.
He told me this 4 or 5 times while stating at the same time that he doesn’t care wether I get my tubes tied or not, but he needed that paper signed so that if it was necessary in the moment, he could do the procedure.
I’m not signing those papers. I am not aware of ANY need to sterilize myself. Am I mistaken? I understand that it is medically necessary to remove a woman’s uterus to alleviate certain medical conditions, but that is not the same thing as having your tubes tied to prevent pregnancy.
I’ve healed flawlessly from my past 3 csections. You can hardly see the scar and there is hardly any scar tissue. I’ve never had placenta previa or acretta or any sort of problem that would indicate I should not have any future surgeries.
My husband is floored at the situation, understandably. I won’t be going to any more appointments alone. His fear is that the doctor will do it anyway or that he will not be truthful about the condition of my uterus and try to scare me into having my uterus removed or something. He fears that I will be manipulated if for some reason I am not all there due to anesthesia or wracked with pain or stress in the moment. He doesn’t trust this doctor AT ALL. I think his concerns are valid.
How easy it is to say just switch doctors. We are rural, and if I wanted to look at different doctors, we are looking at a distance of 4-5 hours.
Any advice? Words of wisdom? Consolations? I guess we are just feeling a little shook up.
Not only that, but I have such anxiety with male doctors. They intimidate me, and while I know that it is morally permissible to have male doctors, I get so bothered about the whole modesty issue. I wasn’t expecting to be assigned to a male doctor who happens to be (or so they say) is the only one available. He’s really tall, assertive, and pushy. I will have my husband with me at all future interactions with him but I’m still uncomfortable with everything.
Thanks for listening!
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Two of my ob's were women and they were monsters. No empathy and they mocked me. The male was so much better. I despise female doctors.
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Two of my ob's were women and they were monsters. No empathy and they mocked me. The male was so much better. I despise female doctors.
OP here. My experience has been the exact opposite. Maybe it’s just the luck of the draw. All of my female doctors have been amazing, empathetic and caring.
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Get a midwife? and try for a VBAC?
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Get a midwife? and try for a VBAC?
Midwives don’t do C-sections to my knowledge, and there is no doctor within 5 hours of me that would do a vbac after 3 sections. Even in metro areas, finding a doctor that would do that is rare.
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Midwives don’t do C-sections to my knowledge, and there is no doctor within 5 hours of me that would do a vbac after 3 sections. Even in metro areas, finding a doctor that would do that is rare.
What about an independent midwife who would be willing to do a VBAC?
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Male or female, this doctor sounds like he's operating (no pun intended) from a position of bad faith and for that reason alone is untrustworthy, even if he's supposedly the specialist they're telling you is better for you than your regular doctor.
Sounds anti-natalist too. There are no baseline risks to not getting your tubes tied after a fourth pregnancy. Sounds like it's less about your own specific risks as you explained and more an automatic actuarial designation for no reason other than it's a fourth c-section and the hospital's in CYA mode.
For Catholics (for anyone, for that matter), the only justifiable reason to remove the uterus is if there's life-threatening hemorrhaging or cancer. Similarly, the only reason for tubal ligation would be as a secondary effect of emergency intervention in an ectopic pregnancy.
Was one of the docuмents you were given to sign a Health Care Proxy designating your husband as the only person to make decisions for you if necessary? If not (or if it was, but underemphasized or not explained adequately), then that's a huge red flag. Given the bind you're in as to limited options, maybe the answer is with your husband's support and intervention and lots of prayer between now and April. Mr. Specialist sounds like he's not used to hearing a steadfast and principled "no" from anyone. Maybe this will be the case that teaches him.
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What about an independent midwife who would be willing to do a VBAC?
Midwives are really out of the question in my situation because of my history of hypertension in late pregnancy. They won’t take me. Even if I did miraculously find one, my husband would say no. He is done with v-bacs.
I started off with a midwife with my first, but had a doctor picked out just in case. When my blood pressure went too high, I had to go to the hospital. I labored for over 40 hours and it ended up in an emergency C-section after the babies heart rate dropped dangerously low and would not recover between contractions. I had done my research on supportive doctors and I had a solid level of trust with this doctor. She knew I absolutely did not want a C-section and my resolve not to have one was well known. After the baby’s heart rate did not recover and continued to drop, the look in her eyes when she asked me to please consent to a C-section was one of almost desperation and fear. She was a mother of 4 herself, and it was a mother to mother moment. I know I made the right decision there.
On my second pregnancy I went past 40 weeks so they induced me. Failure to progress is what they told me. I was scared and decided to follow the advice of my doctor. To this day I wonder if it was the right decision. I tend to think it wasn’t. If I hadn’t had a previous C-section, I would have told her to leave me alone until 43 weeks.
The third was a planned V-bac. I labored for 30 hours, failed to progress only to find out that the cord was wrapped around her neck. If I went much longer, she would have died.
This is a very difficult subject for me. Somehow I feel like less of a mother for not being able to birth naturally EVER. Without medical intervention I don’t think I would have had live babies, and with the first I probably would have died. There is a lot of pressure and it’s all on me to do all of my own research, to find the best doctors, to make wise and informed decisions. Sure, husband is supportive but really and truly, the burden falls on me. I’ve tried the best I can. And here I am now, still trying the best I can, but still feel so much guilt. Bah!
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Male or female, this doctor sounds like he's operating (no pun intended) from a position of bad faith and for that reason alone is untrustworthy, even if he's supposedly the specialist they're telling you is better for you than your regular doctor.
Sounds anti-natalist too. There are no baseline risks to not getting your tubes tied after a fourth pregnancy. Sounds like it's less about your own specific risks as you explained and more an automatic actuarial designation for no reason other than it's a fourth c-section and the hospital's in CYA mode.
For Catholics (for anyone, for that matter), the only justifiable reason to remove the uterus is if there's life-threatening hemorrhaging or cancer. Similarly, the only reason for tubal ligation would be as a secondary effect of emergency intervention in an ectopic pregnancy.
Was one of the docuмents you were given to sign a Health Care Proxy designating your husband as the only person to make decisions for you if necessary? If not (or if it was, but underemphasized or not explained adequately), then that's a huge red flag. Given the bind you're in as to limited options, maybe the answer is with your husband's support and intervention and lots of prayer between now and April. Mr. Specialist sounds like he's not used to hearing a steadfast and principled "no" from anyone. Maybe this will be the case that teaches him.
I don’t believe I’ve signed anything about my husband being the only one to make the decisions. The specialist, because I’m on Medicaid, said that I have to have the paper signed for the tubal 30 days before delivery or he can’t do it, so that’s why that paperwork is being filled out so soon.
I have an appointment with my regular doctor and I will be talking to her about it. She is actually a friend of mine and has 5 kids, which is a comfort. She will be present at the surgery as far as I know. But I will definately talk to her about the docuмent you are taking about and make sure that it is made clear. Thankyou!
Thankyou for the reminder to pray. My husband reminds me of this as well. It is too easy to get wrapped up in anxieties.
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Try contacting Dr. Lantier (SSPX parishioner) and ask if he has any recommendations for the specialist that you need. Explain that you are a Catholic and the situation you are in. NOTE: you will most likely have to travel to wherever the specialist is, so you have to weigh the pros and cons of using the local specialist you have or travel.
Steven Lantier, M.D. - Surgery Center of Oklahoma (surgerycenterok.com) (https://surgerycenterok.com/specialists/steven-lantier/)
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I'd want a trustworthy doctor or other qualified individual present to witness and make decisions, so the doc doesn't try to sterilize you.
I understand the need to plan ahead for this C-section, but are you still going to try a natural birth this time if there's no obvious complications preventing its success?
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Midwives are really out of the question in my situation because of my history of hypertension in late pregnancy. They won’t take me. Even if I did miraculously find one, my husband would say no. He is done with v-bacs.
I started off with a midwife with my first, but had a doctor picked out just in case. When my blood pressure went too high, I had to go to the hospital. I labored for over 40 hours and it ended up in an emergency C-section after the babies heart rate dropped dangerously low and would not recover between contractions. I had done my research on supportive doctors and I had a solid level of trust with this doctor. She knew I absolutely did not want a C-section and my resolve not to have one was well known. After the baby’s heart rate did not recover and continued to drop, the look in her eyes when she asked me to please consent to a C-section was one of almost desperation and fear. She was a mother of 4 herself, and it was a mother to mother moment. I know I made the right decision there.
On my second pregnancy I went past 40 weeks so they induced me. Failure to progress is what they told me. I was scared and decided to follow the advice of my doctor. To this day I wonder if it was the right decision. I tend to think it wasn’t. If I hadn’t had a previous C-section, I would have told her to leave me alone until 43 weeks.
The third was a planned V-bac. I labored for 30 hours, failed to progress only to find out that the cord was wrapped around her neck. If I went much longer, she would have died.
This is a very difficult subject for me. Somehow I feel like less of a mother for not being able to birth naturally EVER. Without medical intervention I don’t think I would have had live babies, and with the first I probably would have died. There is a lot of pressure and it’s all on me to do all of my own research, to find the best doctors, to make wise and informed decisions. Sure, husband is supportive but really and truly, the burden falls on me. I’ve tried the best I can. And here I am now, still trying the best I can, but still feel so much guilt. Bah!
My wife can relate to many elements of your story -- high blood pressure towards end of pregnancy, going well past 40 weeks, induction, laboring a long time and ending up in C-section, having to do lots of research/finding doctors/make informed decisions.
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I'd want a trustworthy doctor or other qualified individual present to witness and make decisions, so the doc doesn't try to sterilize you.
I understand the need to plan ahead for this C-section, but are you still going to try a natural birth this time if there's no obvious complications preventing its success?
Because of other complications, a natural birth is no longer an option.
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I don’t believe I’ve signed anything about my husband being the only one to make the decisions. The specialist, because I’m on Medicaid, said that I have to have the paper signed for the tubal 30 days before delivery or he can’t do it, so that’s why that paperwork is being filled out so soon.
I have an appointment with my regular doctor and I will be talking to her about it. She is actually a friend of mine and has 5 kids, which is a comfort. She will be present at the surgery as far as I know. But I will definately talk to her about the docuмent you are taking about and make sure that it is made clear. Thankyou!
Thankyou for the reminder to pray. My husband reminds me of this as well. It is too easy to get wrapped up in anxieties.
The 30-day thing is only about them getting Medicaid pre-authorization to reimburse costs as a contingency. It's not that "he can't do it", meaning the delivery itself, if you don't sign the tubal release. So if you say flat out no to tubal ligation, then there's no need to get pre-authorization for that particular cost. Each line-item procedure gets two separate signatures from you, one for the procedure itself and one for permission to bill Medicaid. For that reason, it would help to have your husband sitting next to you so that Specialist Dude doesn't try to rush you through the signoffs.
The tubal part is completely optional and has no bearing on delivery except that it's convenient for them to do it in that moment while they have the woman on the operating table. (This was a dirty secret for many years in the past when doctors would insist on c-sections for poor women only to sneak in and do the tubals as population control.) More importantly, from a Catholic perspective, it's a form of purposeful contraception. (Pre-authorization for a hysterectomy would be different if you'd had a serious history of, say, placental malformation, though that could be a matter of first sorting it through with a priest.)
Good that your regular doctor is there for you, both medically and as a mom herself!
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Midwives are really out of the question in my situation because of my history of hypertension in late pregnancy. They won’t take me. Even if I did miraculously find one, my husband would say no. He is done with v-bacs.
Here's an article that speaks about that, the title of which is The Caesarean Cross (https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/the-cesarean-cross). (Kennedy Hall and Crisis Magazine, yeah, yeah, I know. Go on the substance of the situation instead of the author and venue.) The article was written in June 2022 when she was scheduled for her 5th, and she just had her 6th a few weeks ago.
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Seems to me the solution is a Medical Power of Attorney for your husband. And an Advanced Directive stating no procedures for the purpose of sterilization.
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Seems to me the solution is a Medical Power of Attorney for your husband. And an Advanced Directive stating no procedures for the purpose of sterilization.
How would one go about that? Ask the doctor for the paperwork?
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How would one go about that? Ask the doctor for the paperwork?
Here's an explanation. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/law_aging/resources/health_care_decision_making/power_atty_guide_and_form_2011/ (https://www.americanbar.org/groups/law_aging/resources/health_care_decision_making/power_atty_guide_and_form_2011/)
There are a lot of free forms online, if only as examples of what these look like. (Note, if you see "advance directive" or "living will" those are for end of life, not for routine care, but it doesn't hurt to be informed about that either.)
Look here for Catholic versions. https://txcatholic.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Medical_Power_Attorney.pdf
(https://txcatholic.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Medical_Power_Attorney.pdf)
(https://www.pacatholic.org/wp-content/uploads/livingwill.pdf)
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How would one go about that? Ask the doctor for the paperwork?
Heck no because those docuмents take his power away don't even tell him you're gonna do that until after you have the docuмents. Make sure the clinic and the hospital also have copies of these docuмents. You can use forms that you download off the internet that are specific for your state. It will have to be notarized which you should be able to do at your bank at no charge.
Make sure your husband understands the situation and all the appropriate options. In an emergency he may get scared and just do what the hospital tells him without understanding the ramifications.
This is not to suggest that full or partial removal of reproductive organs may not be necessary in a true emergency situation. I think your provider must understand that you are against treatments to prevent pregnancy.
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I believe it was in the 60's. It was considered against the law?, however, to ask, pressure a women who has just had a C-section for sterilization.
How dare they, doc, take advantage of a situation when the lady is hurting and such. Gospel says, suffering will be forgotten once the baby is in the arms of the mother etc. The world is evil. How does one find a doc. who has the calling of God. When they don't, it becomes just a job. YUK!
No women should go past 40 weeks, it can have the baby regress, and more on the mother.
about the year 2000, $$$ for abortion was the state(s) saying "more visits will make for healthier babies." Give us a million$$. I testified here in the state of Phoenix. It was the CEO of Dept. of Health, who knew what was going on. I testified to prove more visits do not make for a better outcome. They lost their money! Then next was the notion that 40 weeks was for better outcomes and again the state(s) asked for $$$$. And again, if they get that $$$ it goes for abortion. Evil!! When doctors get paid by the state, programs from the feds, like Catholic Charities get $10,000 a year for a pro-life clinic. Well, they don't get $10,000 unless they support the federal agenda of communism. It is so sad for all this evil going on. But if a doc. is being paid by the state, and these pro-life clinics have a list of doctors to choose from. Here in Phoenix, during 1987--- the list had all doctors being paid by the state. one doctor said he was NFP. Well, he may have, but he was still being paid by the state. Therefore he must do as the state says. He was gagged. In his office he was not allowed to give any talk of NFP or advertise. In other words, he was showing himself to say nothing about options,, just gagged.
So, that is some of the game play. You want $$$, from state, federal grants, fine, but you must follow their ways.
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Sending to a specialist equals more money for hospital. The part about tearing up paperwork sounds like BS.
Time to get rid of both obgyns and get a new one.
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“what bothers me is how he pressured me to sign a docuмent giving him the option to do the tubal”. You did nothing wrong.
You probably don’t even need a c section. What you need is a new doctor.
You did nothing wrong. He is a con artist.
You need to get rid of both doctors and find a new one. You should be angry at your female doctor for referring you to such a creep.
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Sterilization after a c section is not normal. I have never heard of any thing like that.
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Sterilization after a c section is not normal. I have never heard of any thing like that.
It's so they could do two surgeries at the same time, i've heard of it being done and normalized.
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It's so they could do two surgeries at the same time, i've heard of it being done and normalized.
OP here. Yes. It is unfortunately a very common practice and has been for some time.
What is terrifying is that after I was born, when my mother was on the operating table, they brought it up to my dad that her life would be at risk if she were to ever conceive again. Terrified, he consented with her without any hesitation. They tied her tubes on the spot before closing her up.
I do not fault my father for this, or my mother. They were 100% blindsided and fearful without the Catholic faith to guide them. They thought they were doing the right thing.
Similarly, my MIL was popped the same question on the operating table. They scared her and she consented. She grieves her decision to this day. My husband is her only son, and her daughter died at 8 years of age.
Needless to say, I have been wary of doctors especially in the birthing industry. When I got married, I was sure that I would not give in easily to having a c-section. While I believe mine were necessary, it has been a bitter pill to swallow considering how both sets of parents succuмbed to pressured and unnecessary sterilization.
The thought has crossed my mind that there is a generational demon waging war against my family.
The abuses in the birthing industry are egregious. It is a horror that comes from the depths of hell. A scourge to human kind.
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I have heard of having to do an emergency hysterectomy in rare cases ( for uncontrolled hemorrhage etc) but I have NEVER heard of doing an emergency tubal ligation. That is just ridiculous. what kind of life threatening condition would a tubal solve?
This OB just want's to sterilize you.
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OP here. Yes. It is unfortunately a very common practice and has been for some time.
What is terrifying is that after I was born, when my mother was on the operating table, they brought it up to my dad that her life would be at risk if she were to ever conceive again. Terrified, he consented with her without any hesitation. They tied her tubes on the spot before closing her up.
I do not fault my father for this, or my mother. They were 100% blindsided and fearful without the Catholic faith to guide them. They thought they were doing the right thing.
Similarly, my MIL was popped the same question on the operating table. They scared her and she consented. She grieves her decision to this day. My husband is her only son, and her daughter died at 8 years of age.
Needless to say, I have been wary of doctors especially in the birthing industry. When I got married, I was sure that I would not give in easily to having a c-section. While I believe mine were necessary, it has been a bitter pill to swallow considering how both sets of parents succuмbed to pressured and unnecessary sterilization.
The thought has crossed my mind that there is a generational demon waging war against my family.
The abuses in the birthing industry are egregious. It is a horror that comes from the depths of hell. A scourge to human kind.
Are you Native American, mixed race, or family from a poor community/uninsured? I'm curious about the motive for the sterilization of both mothers.
Women on Medicaid will be pushed towards sterilization after a certain number of babies. Doctor doesn't matter. It's the program that matters.
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Are you Native American, mixed race, or family from a poor community/uninsured? I'm curious about the motive for the sterilization of both mothers.
Women on Medicaid will be pushed towards sterilization after a certain number of babies. Doctor doesn't matter. It's the program that matters.
Neither family is of mixed race. However, my husbands parents were teenagers on welfare when it happened to them.
My parents were too poor to afford insurance when it occurred for them.
You have a good point. Both sets of parents were considered poor by American standards.
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If you're able to, you could find a doula or family member (mom or sister) who could advocate for you against pushy doctors. You mentioned a friend who'll be at your operation which is good. I'm sorry that you're going through this.
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If you're able to, you could find a doula or family member (mom or sister) who could advocate for you against pushy doctors. You mentioned a friend who'll be at your operation which is good. I'm sorry that you're going through this.
That was me.
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I would personally find a new OB to do the c-section because I feel like he has ulterior motives and won't respect the fact that you don't want a tubal ligation. It seems malevolent that he was pushing for that surgery. As for distance, it's tough since you're very rural. If you live that far away, you probably have to seek temporary accommodation whenever you go for your appointments. Could you talk to your current doctor and tell her how you feel about the male doctor? Maybe she could offer some advice. Also, have you looked up reviews on him like ratemds.com?
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Midwives are really out of the question in my situation because of my history of hypertension in late pregnancy. They won’t take me. Even if I did miraculously find one, my husband would say no. He is done with v-bacs.
I started off with a midwife with my first, but had a doctor picked out just in case. When my blood pressure went too high, I had to go to the hospital. I labored for over 40 hours and it ended up in an emergency C-section after the babies heart rate dropped dangerously low and would not recover between contractions. I had done my research on supportive doctors and I had a solid level of trust with this doctor. She knew I absolutely did not want a C-section and my resolve not to have one was well known. After the baby’s heart rate did not recover and continued to drop, the look in her eyes when she asked me to please consent to a C-section was one of almost desperation and fear. She was a mother of 4 herself, and it was a mother to mother moment. I know I made the right decision there.
On my second pregnancy I went past 40 weeks so they induced me. Failure to progress is what they told me. I was scared and decided to follow the advice of my doctor. To this day I wonder if it was the right decision. I tend to think it wasn’t. If I hadn’t had a previous C-section, I would have told her to leave me alone until 43 weeks.
The third was a planned V-bac. I labored for 30 hours, failed to progress only to find out that the cord was wrapped around her neck. If I went much longer, she would have died.
This is a very difficult subject for me. Somehow I feel like less of a mother for not being able to birth naturally EVER. Without medical intervention I don’t think I would have had live babies, and with the first I probably would have died. There is a lot of pressure and it’s all on me to do all of my own research, to find the best doctors, to make wise and informed decisions. Sure, husband is supportive but really and truly, the burden falls on me. I’ve tried the best I can. And here I am now, still trying the best I can, but still feel so much guilt. Bah!
I have had 5 c-sections. I understand the guilt of not being able to have babies naturally. My prayers are with you. Have you already signed the tubal ligation paper? If no, please don't. If yes, is there anything you can do to change it? I think they brought in the specialists more due to preeclampsia. If you would like to talk more please, DM me. May God bless you and keep you.
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Neither family is of mixed race. However, my husbands parents were teenagers on welfare when it happened to them.
My parents were too poor to afford insurance when it occurred for them.
You have a good point. Both sets of parents were considered poor by American standards.
I believe we've uncovered the motive right here.
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Is there any possibility of relocating for about 4-6 weeks to a city with a specialist hospital for the birth? I’m sure it’s expensive in terms of money, but if there’s a medical need? I know someone who has high risk pregnancies and could not deliver at her usual hospital because they closed the maternity department after most of the staff refused to get the C-sickness 💉.
They left the older teens at home and farmed the younger out to relatives and took a a room at a residence hotel in a city 250 miles away.
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Out of curiosity OP, did you get an epidural for any of your labors (particularly the first)? Or were they unmedicated?
I've heard of epidurals prolonging labor extensively and leading to complications. Same with inductions.
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On the bright side, he's only around once per month. Talk to your regular OB. It sounds like she's supportive and might be able to shield you from having to see this specialist even if he ultimately does the c-section. Don't sign the paperwork. I agree with others here that there's no such thing as an emergency tubal. It's convenient for him, nothing more. And, not agreeing to that certainly doesn't keep him from doing a c-section. Don't listen to any "because you have Medicaid" nonsense. (As if normal insurance providers are super accommodating and easy to work with?!? Ha!!)
I so wish I could transport my OB up to you. He's super nice, agreeable even when he doesn't agree with me, and a great surgeon too. He last did my 5th c-section. He of course asked all the questions about future birth control and gave all the warnings as he should, but once he'd said his bit, he didn't pressure me into anything. When all was said and done, his last comment to me before leaving the operating room was something like, "I stitched you up extra well in case you need to use this again." :laugh1: Oh, and yes I had Medicaid and never heard the phrase "because you have Medicaid..." from him.
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A good doctor is a great blessing. Paperwork is only to protect themselves.
I had 8 c-sections, the last one ended in emergency partial hysterectomy after 45 min in the recovering room.
My oldest daughter has 13 children and the last 3 have been c-sections.
Lifesite News has a story right now of a woman who had 9. I did not finish reading it but up to 6 is not uncommon today. A good doctor is great, lots of prayers too!