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Author Topic: MRKH and an amazing love story  (Read 2285 times)

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MRKH and an amazing love story
« on: November 01, 2015, 09:42:54 AM »
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  • I have been wanting to share this for many years, but have only now obtained permission to share this highly sensitive and personal account of a truly remarkable couple – and even now the conditions of my being permitted to share it require my own anonymity and also the suppression of details pertaining to how and where they met, and also how they came to turn to me for advice, as it is their wish that there be no means of identifying them.  They both believe in following the advice in Matthew 6:16 that “And when you fast, be not as the hypocrites, sad. For they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.” and their marriage has been in one very personal and private way like a continual fast.

    He had been raised as an ultra-conservative Novus Ordo (didn’t know about traditional Catholics until turning to me) while she had been raised as an anti-Catholic Protestant whose views of the Church had been formed by such books as “Roman Catholicism” by Loraine Boettner and Jack Chick’s publications.

    Anyway, despite these severe doctrinal differences there was a powerful connection between them such that they would often get together to discuss these sorts of books and Catholic apologetics books, discussing (at times even arguing) them on retreats, over lunch, and then over dinner, and then late-into-the-night conversations, during which her position towards Catholicism softened to the point she was willing to convert and they had gotten married by his parish priest (Novus Ordo), though her parents did not come.

    It was on their wedding night that they discovered that she had a physical defect which prevented her from conceiving children.

    It was at this time that the man turned to me, asking what to do.  He loved her dearly, but didn’t know if he should stay or leave her or what he should do.  My answer to him was that since this was an unconsummated marriage, he could legitimately get an annulment and be free to marry another.  But she, now with her condition known, would not have the same freedom.  It also occurred to me that this could be a great opportunity for holiness, as there had been saintly couples who, though being married, freely chose and agreed never to avail themselves of the specifically marital prerogatives, including no less that Saints Joseph and Mary, also Saints Valerian and Cecilia, and Saints Henry II of Bavaria and Cunigunde.  And there were also those who though married chose to wait for some time before entering into that specifically married way of life, such as Tobias and Sarah (Book of Tobit).
    Such was his love for her that he could not abandon her to a life of loneliness, so no annulment for them; they were going to stick it out and make a life and home of it.  But now what to do next.  Her family unfortunately remain Protestant (although her parents have since softened up a great deal towards Catholicism in view of how extraordinarily well this Catholic young man has loved and stood by their daughter) and such familial circuмstances resulted in her having one last conversation with her former Protestant pastor, who advised [her to commit sin to please her husband].

    She was actually ashamed that she could have ever once thought such advice to be acceptable, as he, being quite strictly Catholic-minded in his spirituality, would have nothing to do with this sinful advice.  That advice from the Protestant pastor had been for her the final nail in the coffin of her former Protestantism.
    For his part, he approached his (Novus ordo) priest for advice, and there the advice was to look into one or another of these various medical approaches, but she would have nothing to do with anything like that because she believed that she was made how God intended her to be and did not wish to insult God as if God had made a mistake in how He built her.  The man would have to accept her as she was or she would have to be alone all her life.
    Meanwhile through their contact with me they learned of Catholic tradition and the Latin Mass, and joined a traditional Catholic chapel.  He also found his former (Novus Ordo) priest’s advice unacceptable as he decided to accept her as she was, and now still is.  He had nevertheless been worried about what he would “do” since none of the usual marital prerogatives were available to him and none of the alternatives presented were acceptable to them, and I asked him, well, what did you do all those years when you were single?”  His answer was that he had done an excellent job of keeping himself pure all that time, so I told him “just keep doing the same, but now you have a partner to cheer you on and encourage you in continuing the same purity you have already practiced.”
    They are still together, still going to the traditional Catholic chapel, and have since adopted several children who truly seem like they could have been their natural children, and remain as much in love as they were when they were still only engaged, but only all the deeper.  But until now I have been the only person (beside her parents and doctor) privileged to know of this awesome and truly saintly couple.


    Offline Matthew

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    MRKH and an amazing love story
    « Reply #1 on: November 01, 2015, 09:54:23 AM »
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    For his part, he approached his (Novus ordo) priest for advice, and there the advice was to look into one or another of these various medical approaches (surgery), but she would have nothing to do with anything like that because she believed that she was made how God intended her to be and did not wish to insult God as if God had made a mistake in how He built her.  The man would have to accept her as she was or she would have to be alone all her life.


    I hate to break up this tear jerker, sentimental story, but there's a bit of an error here.

    A protestant error, even.

    While a woman in this situation wouldn't be *obligated* to undergo surgery, nevertheless we're not some kind of protestants who reject medical care or intervention, with the reason that "That's how God made us".

    Going to an orthodontist for braces is NOT slapping God in the face that he made a mistake creating me with 4 extra teeth and a mouth that was too small. God allows nature to take its course. He PERMITS many things to happen.

    Don't most people have their wisdom teeth taken out at some point?

    I could give dozens of other examples. Medical intervention is perfectly legitimate, and compatible with the Catholic Faith.

    It all depends on the availability of options (can you get to a place where the procedure is done? Can you afford the cost?), the level of risk, how common the surgery is, the likelihood of success, etc.

    Just remember, God placed you in the 21st century. The options offered by modern medical science could be PART of God's plan for you. Your going to the hospital could be part of His "perfect plan" for you. Perhaps he wanted you to offer up the pains and inconveniences of surgery for various causes (merit for heaven, the Poor Souls, conversion of sinners, etc.)

    If you are called to celibacy, join the religious life.

    Or if your circuмstances require a de-facto "Josephite marriage", then embrace it for the right reasons. But not out of some protestant understanding of God's will.

    I'm glad this couple is so serious about their salvation. I hope they both gain a high place in heaven. But objectively speaking, this formerly protestant wife is still carrying a bit of protestant baggage, in terms of doctrine. The Chick Tracts are still very much a part of her.

    Remember, joining the Catholic Church doesn't involve a transplant of knowledge, a complete replacement of old habits, etc. You are still the same person, just "Catholic" now. All your old habits, tendencies, knowledge, etc. stay with you.
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    Änσnymσus

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    MRKH and an amazing love story
    « Reply #2 on: November 01, 2015, 10:16:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew

    While a woman in this situation wouldn't be *obligated* to undergo surgery, nevertheless we're not some kind of protestants who reject medical care or intervention, with the reason that "That's how God made us".

    This was not a doctrinal stand on her part.  I had also mentioned to them that such courses are certainly quite acceptable, morally speaking, and they both accepted that, but this is more a matter of her feelings.
    Think of it like a Hindu who converts to Catholicism but still refuses to eat meat.  As a Catholic he could say "I fully understand and accept that it is not a sin to eat meat (except on Fridays, etc.).  If an Indian brother of mine has converted to the Catholic faith, as I did, and he chooses to eat meat, even right in front of me, I'm absolutely OK with that, but for myself I just cannot bring myself to eat meat and that's just how I am."
    I realize that there may well be some "odd" things about her perspective (such as the disinterest she had all her single life about this whole "period" thing that the other girls would talk about but didn't happen to her), but this was the woman which the man had chosen, and love is just like that.  Just because a person could change (or in this case be changed medically) does not mean that love has a right to be conditioned on that.

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    MRKH and an amazing love story
    « Reply #3 on: November 01, 2015, 10:35:06 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    If you are called to celibacy, join the religious life.

    Or if your circuмstances require a de-facto "Josephite marriage", then embrace it for the right reasons. But not out of some protestant understanding of God's will.

    I'm glad this couple is so serious about their salvation. I hope they both gain a high place in heaven. But objectively speaking, this formerly protestant wife is still carrying a bit of protestant baggage, in terms of doctrine. The Chick Tracts are still very much a part of her.

    Remember, joining the Catholic Church doesn't involve a transplant of knowledge, a complete replacement of old habits, etc. You are still the same person, just "Catholic" now. All your old habits, tendencies, knowledge, etc. stay with you.


    Interesting points.  I know a older woman who had a complete hysterectomy in her early adult years and was married several times outside the Church.  I know she technically is free to marry and she has spoken to several traditional priests who admit she is free to marry.  But her inability to conceive combined with her advanced age make marrying in the Church at this point somewhat imprudent.  She's had no childcare experience so marrying a widower would not be good either and because she had a career she's not exactly domestic.  But she wants to be married!  For the wrong reasons (loneliness, financial support, a feeling of acceptance).  

    Let me add this lady is a serious Catholic trying to get to Heaven.  I don't mean to imply anything other than that.  But her romantic desires to be married haven't diminished.


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    MRKH and an amazing love story
    « Reply #4 on: November 01, 2015, 10:48:08 AM »
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  • Addendum:  His part in this has also struck me as somewhat unusual.  He had once mentioned that he wanted to be a saint and had long ago prayed that some cross (difficult but manageable) be given to him that he would have the grace to grow from and be perfected by, but really hadn't expected it to come in the form of this woman and her distinctive physiology and concomitant attitudes about it.  At least, that what he said.  Maybe he just couldn't bear the thought of her being alone all her life.  Who knows.  And for her part she did say something about "maybe someday" about a medical approach (though it didn't sound to me like she intended "someday" to be anytime soon), so perhaps things have changed in that area, though I have heard nothing of that.  Though I have seen them a couple times in the years since and occasionally correspond with them, we really haven't gone into all that again so the main thing I know about them for sure is that they have adopted children and are happy.  They still like to read saintly books together.


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    MRKH and an amazing love story
    « Reply #5 on: November 01, 2015, 04:30:49 PM »
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  • This is an interesting topic.  The protestants have no clue about morality, so I can see this so-called pastor telling them to go be unnatural.  I think they both chose to do the right thing, with the exception of the issues Matthew talked about.  She should've definitely gotten the operation, but now they have adopted so I don't know how advanced in age they are.

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    MRKH and an amazing love story
    « Reply #6 on: November 01, 2015, 04:43:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Guest

    For his part, he approached his (Novus ordo) priest for advice, and there the advice was to look into one or another of these various medical approaches (surgery), but she would have nothing to do with anything like that because she believed that she was made how God intended her to be and did not wish to insult God as if God had made a mistake in how He built her.  The man would have to accept her as she was or she would have to be alone all her life.


    I hate to break up this tear jerker, sentimental story, but there's a bit of an error here.

    A protestant error, even.

    While a woman in this situation wouldn't be *obligated* to undergo surgery, nevertheless we're not some kind of protestants who reject medical care or intervention, with the reason that "That's how God made us".

    Going to an orthodontist for braces is NOT slapping God in the face that he made a mistake creating me with 4 extra teeth and a mouth that was too small. God allows nature to take its course. He PERMITS many things to happen.

    Don't most people have their wisdom teeth taken out at some point?

    I could give dozens of other examples. Medical intervention is perfectly legitimate, and compatible with the Catholic Faith.

    It all depends on the availability of options (can you get to a place where the procedure is done? Can you afford the cost?), the level of risk, how common the surgery is, the likelihood of success, etc.

    Just remember, God placed you in the 21st century. The options offered by modern medical science could be PART of God's plan for you. Your going to the hospital could be part of His "perfect plan" for you. Perhaps he wanted you to offer up the pains and inconveniences of surgery for various causes (merit for heaven, the Poor Souls, conversion of sinners, etc.)

    If you are called to celibacy, join the religious life.

    Or if your circuмstances require a de-facto "Josephite marriage", then embrace it for the right reasons. But not out of some protestant understanding of God's will.

    I'm glad this couple is so serious about their salvation. I hope they both gain a high place in heaven. But objectively speaking, this formerly protestant wife is still carrying a bit of protestant baggage, in terms of doctrine. The Chick Tracts are still very much a part of her.

    Remember, joining the Catholic Church doesn't involve a transplant of knowledge, a complete replacement of old habits, etc. You are still the same person, just "Catholic" now. All your old habits, tendencies, knowledge, etc. stay with you.


    Agreed.

    Defective reproductive organs are not part of God's plan nor His order.  They're quite *against* His order and are an evil like illness; a result of original sin.


    Offline Matthew

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    MRKH and an amazing love story
    « Reply #7 on: November 02, 2015, 09:18:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    Quote from: Matthew

    While a woman in this situation wouldn't be *obligated* to undergo surgery, nevertheless we're not some kind of protestants who reject medical care or intervention, with the reason that "That's how God made us".

    This was not a doctrinal stand on her part.  I had also mentioned to them that such courses are certainly quite acceptable, morally speaking, and they both accepted that, but this is more a matter of her feelings.
    Think of it like a Hindu who converts to Catholicism but still refuses to eat meat.  As a Catholic he could say "I fully understand and accept that it is not a sin to eat meat (except on Fridays, etc.).  If an Indian brother of mine has converted to the Catholic faith, as I did, and he chooses to eat meat, even right in front of me, I'm absolutely OK with that, but for myself I just cannot bring myself to eat meat and that's just how I am."
    I realize that there may well be some "odd" things about her perspective (such as the disinterest she had all her single life about this whole "period" thing that the other girls would talk about but didn't happen to her), but this was the woman which the man had chosen, and love is just like that.  Just because a person could change (or in this case be changed medically) does not mean that love has a right to be conditioned on that.


    I don't know, you say it's not doctrinal, but the person clearly gave a dogmatic reason why.

    She didn't say, "I choose to offer up the suffering to God for the poor souls." or "I realize I could try the surgery, but since it's optional I'm going to go with the path of sacrifice instead."

    She clearly stated that to do the surgery would be to say that God made a mistake. Anyone else with her condition, who disagreed with her and had the surgery, would not consider friendship with her to be a possibility. Her words condemned them as "saying God made a mistake creating her." She gave a GENERAL PRINCIPLE or REASON why. Her reason didn't mention her own free will or personal choice at all. She was merely following the principle/belief/dogma she believes.

    Her statement didn't sound like she had to give it much thought. Just like if a devout Traditional Catholic woman were told, "The baby might have __ or __ disease. Do you want to keep the baby?"  She would say, "Yes." without any deliberation. And she would give GENERAL REASONS because she believes a pre-born baby is alive and that murder is WRONG. For everyone in the world, not just herself.

    Likewise, this woman clearly believes it's WRONG FOR ANYONE to do surgery in cases like this (birth defects).

    She has a confused, protestant notion of "the way God made you" and like I said, the Chick Tracts are still very much a part of her. Hopefully they won't cause any major problems in her spiritual life, since she has bet so much on the next life (which is good).

    But the Truth is important. Wouldn't it be a shame to go over-and-above (heroic virtue) on something, and then from lack of possessing true Catholic doctrine the person (for example) became a dogmatic home-aloner, and ended up losing his soul? That would be a tragedy.
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    Offline Matthew

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    MRKH and an amazing love story
    « Reply #8 on: November 02, 2015, 09:21:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: Original Post (OP)
    For his part, he approached his (Novus ordo) priest for advice, and there the advice was to look into one or another of these various medical approaches, but she would have nothing to do with anything like that because she believed that she was made how God intended her to be and did not wish to insult God as if God had made a mistake in how He built her.  The man would have to accept her as she was or she would have to be alone all her life.


    Quote from: Defender of OP
    Think of it like a Hindu who converts to Catholicism but still refuses to eat meat.  As a Catholic he could say "I fully understand and accept that it is not a sin to eat meat (except on Fridays, etc.).  If an Indian brother of mine has converted to the Catholic faith, as I did, and he chooses to eat meat, even right in front of me, I'm absolutely OK with that, but for myself I just cannot bring myself to eat meat and that's just how I am."


    You really think that's a good analogy? You're not very good at analogies.

    In your analogy, the person emphasizes the true doctrine, but admits it's just a personal choice that he made. There was no hint of "just a personal hangup" in the OP, but was quite doctrine-based and universal.

    No, if you want to use the Hindu and meat analogy, the OP would have said something like,

    "I would never consider eating meat. Because I believe life is sacred and that to destroy life is sinful, like you're saying God shouldn't have made that creature."

    THAT would be the proper analogy.
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    Änσnymσus

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    MRKH and an amazing love story
    « Reply #9 on: November 15, 2015, 09:15:47 PM »
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  • Yeah, you may be right.  Looking back on the times of my conversations with them about this, all I can say is that it really didn't seem to come across that way (like something "doctrinal") to me at the time, no matter how much it indeed so seems when our conversations are reduced to cold typescript.  Unfortunately, they no longer wish to discuss this.  I think they both feel this to be quite personal, and though I still count them as friends and am well enough treated by them, clearly things have moved on, topically speaking.  So even the "permission" is merely based on the agreement from back at the time that after X years if no different direction is given to me from them I may share it if anonymity is preserved as I first described.  The "permission" therefore consists of merely that X years have finally passed with no change to that agreement or even mention of it from them.  They may even have forgotten that they agreed to that, so maybe it might be best I don't take this any further.

    Still, this couple has certainly intrigued me with their attitudes and their unique solution to a very real difficulty which many women face.  And I am grateful for this opportunity to finally get this off my chest.  Thank you.