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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on March 05, 2014, 08:07:29 AM
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I am going to buy some sort of celice this Lent, as well as a scourge. Possibly a chain around my waist...
Members who have used some of the more severe methods of mortification, which have you used and what are your thoughts on various methods?
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If you told that to a psychiatrist you would be put in hospital. Just a comment, do not take offence, but rather see the facts about Catholic practices being deemed as madness by atheistic society.
And make no comments about the "mental" health ( is there even such a thing) of dear soulguard.
Soulguard prays for you, therefore do not condemn him to judgement and call it "help". That goes for everybody.
Btw
My penance is the rosary on my knees with arms out like a Crucifix. Painful but meritorious.
SG
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I am going to buy some sort of celice this Lent, as well as a scourge. Possibly a chain around my waist...
Members who have used some of the more severe methods of mortification, which have you used and what are your thoughts on various methods?
Don't do any extraordinary severe penances like that unless you do it under the guidance of a wise and holy spiritual director.
There are lots of ordinary voluntary penances you can do without getting into severe methods. There even are many involuntary penances like suffering things well that are inflicted on you. Those are the things ordinary Catholics do.
Sometimes the desire and doing of severe penance is a trap of the devil. Sometimes it causes pride.
Are you extraordinary and advanced in the spiritual life?
If so I highly doubt you would be asking these questions here.
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I am going to talk to a Priest. Perhaps the word "severe" was a bad choice.
Scourging a few times a day while I recite the confiteor, act of contrition and prayer for daily neglects. That means about a minute a day.
A celice around the leg, or on a necklace, or on the arm isn't exactly sado-masochistic or prideful.
These things to me are no more severe than doing my hours of prayer daily on my knees.
The reason I ask here is because, well, where does one seek out folks who take these sorts of mortification seriously? It's conversation more than inquiring about the basics.
I don't want basics or warnings.
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"Let us now consider what we must do to ensure that the Holy Spirit may dwell in our souls. It can all be summed up in mortification of the flesh with its vices and concupiscences, and in guarding against a selfish spirit... The mortification must be constant and steady, not intermittent, and it must last for one's whole life. Moreover, the perfect Christian must not be satisfied with a kind of mortification which merely appears to be severe. He must make sure that it hurts."
-Padre Pio
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I am going to talk to a Priest. Perhaps the word "severe" was a bad choice.
Scourging a few times a day while I recite the confiteor, act of contrition and prayer for daily neglects. That means about a minute a day.
A celice around the leg, or on a necklace, or on the arm isn't exactly sado-masochistic or prideful.
These things to me are no more severe than doing my hours of prayer daily on my knees.
The reason I ask here is because, well, where does one seek out folks who take these sorts of mortification seriously? It's conversation more than inquiring about the basics.
I don't want basics or warnings.
That is good, that you will consult a priest.
If those things to you are no more severe than doing hours of prayer daily on your knees, maybe you do not need to do them, really. But how do you really know uness you have done them?
Depending one ones state of life and obligations, even doing hours of prayer daily may be imprudent and harmful.
That is why a spiritual adviser, a priest shoud be consulted.
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Can you elaborate on hours of prayer a day being imprudent or harmful? One should pray as much as possible if it is done for the right reasons.
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If you do a morning offering, which can be renewed throughout the day, then everything is a prayer.
Prayer can be short, frequent, and not vocal.
If prayer takes up too much time each day, time that should be spent on our daily duty according to our state in life, then it is too much. It all depends on your state in life and your duties. For example, it is much different for a working man with 10 kids and long working hours, than a single man with no children and an easy job.
So yes, we all need to make time each day for prayer. How much time though is an individual matter
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Sure every act can be a prayer and a sacrifice, but I was implying that I'm able to spend a few hours a day praying vocally. I'm not a kid or new to prayer.
I never said that everyone should pray vocally as much as I do. However, the reality of it is that most people do not spend more than 5 or 10 minutes praying because they are terrified of silence and reflection, and have to live vicariously through sinful technology.
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And now...is anyone who practices the said (or similar) forms of mortification willing to post anonymously about them?
Please, no more warnings, I am praying and studying and talking to a Priest.
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The best mortification I find is that of being persecuted by others on account of Christian qualities in your character. Everywhere I go I am insulted in one way or another for the faith, and it, like Padre Pio says it should do, "hurts".
However, not willing to change my religion for that of hopeless paganism, and persevering in what I have begun since my conversion, I endure daily. Not a single day passes without me being ridiculed for my belief. Not one single day. Just 5 mins ago I got it through a phone call. This is the fruit of the intercession of the saints like one St James the Apostle who called us to practice wisdom in meekness. If the world tramples on us, that is a grace, because just men are tried in the furnace of humiliation.
Other than this I envy the OP who wishes to do penance. Once I am finished my training I think to obtain a quiet home in which to pray and suffer all day, and to cut off the world. I have no desire at all to work 9-5 or to have this "duty of state" that others speak of. I know that when I go before my judge that he will esteem my 9-5 job as worthless, but he will place merit on the things I have done in the hope of pardon.
I cannot at this stage have a conversation about mortification, but I can about suffering, but it will not be long before I undertake what you undertake now as penance. God chooses His victims because He finds them acceptable. Remember soulguard in your prayers I implore thee.
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AnonOp:
I know you just asked for no more warnings so perhaps you could consider this post (medical) advice...
Even in Opus Dei, it is suggested the cilice should be worn a maximum of two hours a day. Also, the faithful are cautioned not to wear the cilice to tightly. This is at least partly due to infection risk. the infection risk can get as severe as gangrene. Of course that would be unattended infections.
Should you choose to do this I would encourage you to be very attentive to wound care.
I don't think your weird or extreme for considering this method of mortification, at all. I realize mainstream folks might feel that way. But we know the cilice has a rich church tradition. Many Saints, especially Saint Francis and Saint Josemaria used this method.
I'm sure a good priest will be able to direct you more on these details, also.
Again, I truly don't mean this as a grumble warning. Just a note on staying health in body as well as Spirit if you choose this.
Happy Ash Wednesday!
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I strongly encourage you not to undertake mortification like this unless it was specifically given to you as penance during Confession, or you are under the guidance of a sound spiritual director.
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it may be something you need to hear.
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I strongly encourage you not to undertake mortification like this unless it was specifically given to you as penance during Confession, or you are under the guidance of a sound spiritual director.
Why?
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I am going to talk to a Priest. Perhaps the word "severe" was a bad choice.
Scourging a few times a day while I recite the confiteor, act of contrition and prayer for daily neglects. That means about a minute a day.
A celice around the leg, or on a necklace, or on the arm isn't exactly sado-masochistic or prideful.
These things to me are no more severe than doing my hours of prayer daily on my knees.
The reason I ask here is because, well, where does one seek out folks who take these sorts of mortification seriously? It's conversation more than inquiring about the basics.
I don't want basics or warnings.
hours of daily prayer on your knees? Are you a religious? Third order?
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I believe that traditionally people needed permission from their confessor or abbot to add physical mortification, sometimes on pain of sin. I hope you have a spiritual adviser. You said you wanted no warnings, so I guess you either know this already or are disregarding it.
1MT
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I am going to talk to a Priest. Perhaps the word "severe" was a bad choice.
Scourging a few times a day while I recite the confiteor, act of contrition and prayer for daily neglects. That means about a minute a day.
A celice around the leg, or on a necklace, or on the arm isn't exactly sado-masochistic or prideful.
These things to me are no more severe than doing my hours of prayer daily on my knees.
The reason I ask here is because, well, where does one seek out folks who take these sorts of mortification seriously? It's conversation more than inquiring about the basics.
I don't want basics or warnings.
Well, I am sorry but if you think it is appropriate to do this without consulting a holy and wise spiritual director, then you need warnings. Penances like this are not something to undertake on your won, without solid guidance. With that guidance, it may be a holy thing to do. Without it, it may well be foolish and spiritually self-destructive.
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I am going to talk to a Priest. Perhaps the word "severe" was a bad choice.
Scourging a few times a day while I recite the confiteor, act of contrition and prayer for daily neglects. That means about a minute a day.
A celice around the leg, or on a necklace, or on the arm isn't exactly sado-masochistic or prideful.
These things to me are no more severe than doing my hours of prayer daily on my knees.
The reason I ask here is because, well, where does one seek out folks who take these sorts of mortification seriously? It's conversation more than inquiring about the basics.
I don't want basics or warnings.
Well, I am sorry but if you think it is appropriate to do this without consulting a holy and wise spiritual director, then you need warnings. Penances like this are not something to undertake on your won, without solid guidance. With that guidance, it may be a holy thing to do. Without it, it may well be foolish and spiritually self-destructive.
Uh, you didn't read what I posted. Please refer to the post you quoted.
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I am going to talk to a Priest. Perhaps the word "severe" was a bad choice.
Scourging a few times a day while I recite the confiteor, act of contrition and prayer for daily neglects. That means about a minute a day.
A celice around the leg, or on a necklace, or on the arm isn't exactly sado-masochistic or prideful.
These things to me are no more severe than doing my hours of prayer daily on my knees.
The reason I ask here is because, well, where does one seek out folks who take these sorts of mortification seriously? It's conversation more than inquiring about the basics.
I don't want basics or warnings.
hours of daily prayer on your knees? Are you a religious? Third order?
Well, I'm looking for a suitable traditional third order that is not Sedevacantist.
Again for the other folks (not quoted poster), I want to stress that I'm not trying to sound all pious and proud like I am so disciplined and all that, or that I think I'm so advanced with my hours of prayer, or that I can take on severe mortifications on a whim. I AM GOING TO TALK TO A PRIEST BEFORE TAKING ON ANYTHING TOO SERIOUS!
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I am going to talk to a Priest. Perhaps the word "severe" was a bad choice.
Scourging a few times a day while I recite the confiteor, act of contrition and prayer for daily neglects. That means about a minute a day.
A celice around the leg, or on a necklace, or on the arm isn't exactly sado-masochistic or prideful.
These things to me are no more severe than doing my hours of prayer daily on my knees.
The reason I ask here is because, well, where does one seek out folks who take these sorts of mortification seriously? It's conversation more than inquiring about the basics.
I don't want basics or warnings.
hours of daily prayer on your knees? Are you a religious? Third order?
Well, I'm looking for a suitable traditional third order that is not Sedevacantist.
Again for the other folks (not quoted poster), I want to stress that I'm not trying to sound all pious and proud like I am so disciplined and all that, or that I think I'm so advanced with my hours of prayer, or that I can take on severe mortifications on a whim. I AM GOING TO TALK TO A PRIEST BEFORE TAKING ON ANYTHING TOO SERIOUS!
The fact that you've been so defensive in this thread is evidence that you have an easily wounded pride and are probably not ready for the kinds of mortifications to which you refer.
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Thank you for your observations BTNYC. Great reasons to practice mortification.
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Thank you for your observations BTNYC. Great reasons to practice mortification.
As prescribed by a good spiritual director, yes.
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Thank you for your observations BTNYC. Great reasons to practice mortification.
As prescribed by a good spiritual director, yes.
That was made clear. Anyways, when I receive warnings and cautions on the forum, I'll do so graciously from now on, and not list out my practices or merits.
It is reasonable to say that in our day only a very small percentile of Priests encourage the same penances and mortifications as Priests did, say, a few hundred years ago. Does this mean that fewer people than back then should take up the discipline (for example)?
What do the Saints have to say about these sort of mortifications? Or rather, I've read what many Saints have to say about mortification and missed the part about asking priests who don't believe in it for permission.
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How many of us have good spiritual directors? There are so few traditional priests they barely have enough time to hear confessions. How many of them have the time to spend extra time with individuals in their flock on a regular basis to really get to know them and give spiritual direction?
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double post after edit...
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How many of us have good spiritual directors? There are so few traditional priests they barely have enough time to hear confessions. How many of them have the time to spend extra time with individuals in their flock on a regular basis to really get to know them and give spiritual direction?
That's a big concern of mine with all of this. I'm glad you put it that way. Many people have to travel an hour just to get to a Latin Mass, myself included. I am not badmouthing Priests, but they cannot read minds, and Our Lady is not going to appear to most of them saying that such and such person is or is not ready for certain mortifications. That, coupled with not getting intimate with one confessor or spiritual director, I hope people can understand more what I am saying.
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How many of us have good spiritual directors? There are so few traditional priests they barely have enough time to hear confessions. How many of them have the time to spend extra time with individuals in their flock on a regular basis to really get to know them and give spiritual direction?
That's a big concern of mine with all of this. I'm glad you put it that way. Many people have to travel an hour just to get to a Latin Mass, myself included. I am not badmouthing Priests, but they cannot read minds, and Our Lady is not going to appear to most of them saying that such and such person is or is not ready for certain mortifications. That, coupled with not getting intimate with one confessor or spiritual director, I hope people can understand more what I am saying.
Those are valid concerns, but one can at least briefly run it by the priest in Confession. Many priests will be able to quickly advise and discourage people who should not be doing such things. Of course not all priests are prudent either, so need to ask one who is.
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How many of us have good spiritual directors? There are so few traditional priests they barely have enough time to hear confessions. How many of them have the time to spend extra time with individuals in their flock on a regular basis to really get to know them and give spiritual direction?
That's a big concern of mine with all of this. I'm glad you put it that way. Many people have to travel an hour just to get to a Latin Mass, myself included. I am not badmouthing Priests, but they cannot read minds, and Our Lady is not going to appear to most of them saying that such and such person is or is not ready for certain mortifications. That, coupled with not getting intimate with one confessor or spiritual director, I hope people can understand more what I am saying.
Those are valid concerns, but one can at least briefly run it by the priest in Confession. Many priests will be able to quickly advise and discourage people who should not be doing such things. Of course not all priests are prudent either, so need to ask one who is.
Right but what is the likelihood of finding a Priest that does not think the corporal mortifications such as the OP mentioned are out of the question for ANYONE? It's pretty likely.
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Can someone explan how this would be better than say an act of mercy? It seems prideful or wasteful to cause self pain like this. Wouldn't a better way would be to help someone in need, shovel the driveway? Clean their house? Build a brick wall?
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Can someone explan how this would be better than say an act of mercy? It seems prideful or wasteful to cause self pain like this. Wouldn't a better way would be to help someone in need, shovel the driveway? Clean their house? Build a brick wall?
We are making rosaries to be given away, as a work of mercy. Next year, we may sew scapulars for the same purpose. There is so much good to be done.
Even if you can't make something or aid in some way...offer things up that save money and give alms to poor Catholics. I can think of at least five traditional families that I know right now, one especially who is in desperate need of help.
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I've found some very interesting ways to use rubber bands around the ankles, feet, and toes.
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Can someone explan how this would be better than say an act of mercy? It seems prideful or wasteful to cause self pain like this. Wouldn't a better way would be to help someone in need, shovel the driveway? Clean their house? Build a brick wall?
We are making rosaries to be given away, as a work of mercy. Next year, we may sew scapulars for the same purpose. There is so much good to be done.
Even if you can't make something or aid in some way...offer things up that save money and give alms to poor Catholics. I can think of at least five traditional families that I know right now, one especially who is in desperate need of help.
I agree. It seems more useful to help others rather than hurt oneself.
There are mental conditions that make people want to hurt, cut, prick themselves. Is this process of mortification have any sanctioned grounds to do so?
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Do you guys read the works of the Saints?
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Does anyone have a reply for that? What of the works of the Saints on these types of Mortification? Are the Saints wrong?
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I am going to buy some sort of celice this Lent, as well as a scourge. Possibly a chain around my waist...
Members who have used some of the more severe methods of mortification, which have you used and what are your thoughts on various methods?
At our parish we are told not to do such things. Just being a traditional Catholic THESE DAYS, is a suffering.
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Does anyone have a reply for that? What of the works of the Saints on these types of Mortification? Are the Saints wrong?
St Theresa of Avila used to practice scourging with a flail to suffer what Christ did at the scourging of the pillar. St Therese de Lisieux was directed to mortification such as picking things from parts of the garden full of thorns. St Paul wrote also that he disciplines his body and forces it to obey him. St John the Baptist lived on insects. I also saw part of a program on the discovery channel one time about these Catholic men in Mexico who willingly got crucified by the community as a way of doing penance, but after the pain were taken down from the cross.
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I've found some very interesting ways to use rubber bands around the ankles, feet, and toes.
That is alarming. You should seek some other kind of mortification. That has a huge potential to go horribly wrong, imo.
1MT
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You should seek some other kind of mortification.
Reading ten of soulguard's comments every day is a great form of Lenten mortification. It promotes healthy peristalsis, too—something you really need to attend to if you're eating a lot of insects!
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Saint John Paul II used to whip himself and sleep on the floor even when he was Roman Pontiff.
Any idea whether other Popes mortified themselves?
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Saint John Paul II used to whip himself and sleep on the floor even when he was Roman Pontiff.
Any idea whether other Popes mortified themselves?
Say what?
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Saint John Paul II used to whip himself and sleep on the floor even when he was Roman Pontiff.
Any idea whether other Popes mortified themselves?
Where'd that come from? :pop:
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Saint John Paul II used to whip himself and sleep on the floor even when he was Roman Pontiff.
Any idea whether other Popes mortified themselves?
Where'd that come from? :pop:
It was mentioned in 2009 -2010 and there are several articles about it.
CNS Story (http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1000347.htm)
Edited to indicate that Tridentine MT is the poster.
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Saint John Paul II used to whip himself and sleep on the floor even when he was Roman Pontiff.
Any idea whether other Popes mortified themselves?
Where'd that come from? :pop:
It was mentioned in 2009 -2010 and there are several articles about it.
CNS Story (http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1000347.htm)
Edited to indicate that Tridentine MT is the poster.
"When it wasn't some infirmity that made him experience pain, he himself would inflict discomfort and mortification on his body," Msgr. Oder wrote.
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Here are two easy mortifications that won't hurt your health or injure you.
Mix foods that don't usually go together. This way you only mortify your sense of taste without doing any harm to your health. For example, have your morning coffee or tea mixed into a bowl of soup. No one needs to know.
Another simple one is not to scratch when you have an itch. That's actually beneficial.
I'd like some more ideas like this.
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How about the mortification of not watching television for an entire day.
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Another good mortification would be to avoid using expletives.
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Another good mortification would be to go out of your way to be nice to someone you dislike. I think this would please Jesus the most.
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Put a pebble in your shoe. It's more annoying than you would think.
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Put a pebble in your shoe. It's more annoying than you would think.
It would please Jesus more if you go out of your way to say something nice to someone you dislike.
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Or do a disagreeable household chore so someone else doesn't have to.