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Author Topic: Melancholic Songs of the Templars  (Read 1831 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Melancholic Songs of the Templars
« on: May 22, 2018, 09:59:28 PM »
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  • Änσnymσus

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #1 on: May 22, 2018, 10:25:56 PM »
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  • Never heard these renditions before, and they certainly strike a chord with me.

    Perfect melancholy for these days, and conjuring reminiscences of the Church at the height of her strength.

    An army -literally- in battle array.

    I can well imagine these Templars marching through the deserts by the thousands, chanting these songs, and striking fear into the hearts of the Islamists.

    What a sight that must have been!


    Offline PG

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #2 on: May 23, 2018, 12:08:43 AM »
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  • I have been listening to "old roman chants" by callixtus for years.  They are definitely biased to eastern orthodox vocal methods.   But, they are still interesting and for me enjoyable to listen to.  Much of the chant does have a desert penitential character to it.  The spirit of the desert fathers/monks mustn't be lost.  The time of the desert fathers was the most interesting time in church history if you ask me.  

    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #3 on: May 23, 2018, 08:40:18 AM »
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  • Thankfully there are many recordings of Templar chant available on youtube.great way to start your crusading day. :)


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #4 on: May 23, 2018, 08:50:34 AM »
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  • Never heard these renditions before, and they certainly strike a chord with me.

    Perfect melancholy for these days, and conjuring reminiscences of the Church at the height of her strength.

    An army -literally- in battle array.

    I can well imagine these Templars marching through the deserts by the thousands, chanting these songs, and striking fear into the hearts of the Islamists.

    What a sight that must have been!
    I would love to wear my Templar outfit to Mass if there was something appropos for that day to don the battle gear of the Crusaders. The chain mail coif would get heavy and hot after a while. ;D
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #5 on: May 23, 2018, 03:30:28 PM »
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  • The Knights Templar degraded into a secret society similar to the Cathars and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.

    http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianheresy/08291KnightsTemplar.php

    In summary, the charges against the Templars were:
        The Temple houses cover every possible crime and abomination.
        Each Templar on his admission swore never to quit the order, and to further its interests by right or wrong.
        Novices of the order, after taking the oath of obedience, were obliged to deny and otherwise blaspheme Christ, and to spit, and sometimes also to trample, upon the cross.
        They then received the kiss of the templar, who officiated as receiver, on the mouth, and afterwards were obliged to kiss him on the anus, on the navel, and sometimes on the penis.
        Many statutes of the order are unlawful, profane and contrary to Christianity. The members are forbidden under threat of imprisonment to reveal them.
        The heads of the order ate in secret alliance with the Saracens, and they had more Mohammedan infidelity than Christian faith. The order works to deliver the Holy Land to the Saracens, and favours them more than Christians.
        The heads of the order are addicted to debauchery, heretical, cruel and sacrilegious men. They kill any novice who discovers the iniquity of the order, and tries to leave it, and bury the body secretly by night. Anyone objecting to it is punished by perpetual captivity. They teach women who are pregnant by them how to procure abortion, and secretly murder new born children.
        The Master is installed in secret with few younger brethren present. It is because he repudiates the Christian faith, or does some similar blasphemy.
        They are infected with the errors of the Fratricelli. They despise the pope and the authority of the Church. They scorn the sacraments, especially those of penance, and confession. They pretend to comply with the rites of the Church simply to avoid detection.
        They sometimes worshipped a cat, which appeared amongst them in their secret conclave.
        They practised ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts together, refusing normal sɛҳuąƖ intercourse.
        They had idols in their different provinces, in the form of a head, having sometimes three faces, sometimes two, or only one, and sometimes a bare skull, which they called their saviour, and believed its influence to be exerted in making them rich, and in making flowers grow and the earth germinate.
        They always wore, bound about their bodies next to their skins or about their shirts, a cord which had been rubbed against the head, and which served for their protection.
        No vice or crime committed for the honour or benefit of the order is held to be a sin.

    http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianheresy/08291KnightsTemplar.php

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #6 on: May 23, 2018, 04:33:56 PM »
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  • The Knights Templar degraded into a secret society similar to the Cathars and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.

    http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianheresy/08291KnightsTemplar.php

    In summary, the charges against the Templars were:
        The Temple houses cover every possible crime and abomination.
        Each Templar on his admission swore never to quit the order, and to further its interests by right or wrong.
        Novices of the order, after taking the oath of obedience, were obliged to deny and otherwise blaspheme Christ, and to spit, and sometimes also to trample, upon the cross.
        They then received the kiss of the templar, who officiated as receiver, on the mouth, and afterwards were obliged to kiss him on the anus, on the navel, and sometimes on the penis.
        Many statutes of the order are unlawful, profane and contrary to Christianity. The members are forbidden under threat of imprisonment to reveal them.
        The heads of the order ate in secret alliance with the Saracens, and they had more Mohammedan infidelity than Christian faith. The order works to deliver the Holy Land to the Saracens, and favours them more than Christians.
        The heads of the order are addicted to debauchery, heretical, cruel and sacrilegious men. They kill any novice who discovers the iniquity of the order, and tries to leave it, and bury the body secretly by night. Anyone objecting to it is punished by perpetual captivity. They teach women who are pregnant by them how to procure abortion, and secretly murder new born children.
        The Master is installed in secret with few younger brethren present. It is because he repudiates the Christian faith, or does some similar blasphemy.
        They are infected with the errors of the Fratricelli. They despise the pope and the authority of the Church. They scorn the sacraments, especially those of penance, and confession. They pretend to comply with the rites of the Church simply to avoid detection.
        They sometimes worshipped a cat, which appeared amongst them in their secret conclave.
        They practised ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts together, refusing normal sɛҳuąƖ intercourse.
        They had idols in their different provinces, in the form of a head, having sometimes three faces, sometimes two, or only one, and sometimes a bare skull, which they called their saviour, and believed its influence to be exerted in making them rich, and in making flowers grow and the earth germinate.
        They always wore, bound about their bodies next to their skins or about their shirts, a cord which had been rubbed against the head, and which served for their protection.
        No vice or crime committed for the honour or benefit of the order is held to be a sin.

    http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianheresy/08291KnightsTemplar.php
    That’s a Prot website, which also condemns the Inquisition, among other things.
    Don’t be so gullible.  Maybe you should ask the KKK what to think about black people?

    Offline PG

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #7 on: May 23, 2018, 05:09:27 PM »
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  • The Knights Templar degraded into a secret society similar to the Cathars and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.
    I have doubts that these are templar chants.  I think the templar theme is more an example of click bait.  These are simply old roman chants sung by orthodox(maybe catholic, maybe not) monastics.  Rocor was using one of these "latin" chants in a promotional video of theirs.  They are certainly worthy of listening.  You are not going to be promoting or become a templar by listening to them.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #8 on: May 23, 2018, 05:56:19 PM »
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  • I have doubts that these are templar chants.  I think the templar theme is more an example of click bait.  These are simply old roman chants sung by orthodox(maybe catholic, maybe not) monastics.  Rocor was using one of these "latin" chants in a promotional video of theirs.  They are certainly worthy of listening.  You are not going to be promoting or become a templar by listening to them.  
    I suspect you are wrong to suggest these are Eastern Catholic or Orthodox chants:
    Gregorian Chant is unknown in either, so why would someone suggest it to be the case.
    That's like hearing Greek chants and saying, "No, I suspect these are no Greeks at all, but really Roman Catholics."

    Offline PG

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #9 on: May 23, 2018, 07:05:03 PM »
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  • I suspect you are wrong to suggest these are Eastern Catholic or Orthodox chants:
    Gregorian Chant is unknown in either, so why would someone suggest it to be the case.
    That's like hearing Greek chants and saying, "No, I suspect these are no Greeks at all, but really Roman Catholics."
    You need to re-read what I posted.  I never said these are eastern catholic or orthodox chants.  This are catholic chants.  What I said is that these are old roman(meaning western latin catholic) chants being sung(recorded) in this case by eastern monastics(maybe uniate, maybe schismatic). That is my opinion.  I have listened to a lot of chant in my lifetime(catholic and schismatic).  And, I will not be surprised if some of these roman chants are being performed in these recordings by schismatics.  The schismatic ROCOR were using these exact roman chants by callixtus to advertise a new monastery of theirs just a few years ago.  Which means, even though they are slavonic, they not only have respect for latin/western formulas, but they have a taste for them.  And, they might just have a taste for them because it is their eastern brethren who are performing them.  Russian orthodoxy is historically well known for stealing style from us Romans(western latin catholics).   The russian orthodox have even come up with their own latin chants.  One of which I heard was very sublime.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #10 on: May 23, 2018, 08:20:15 PM »
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  • I don't know if it's a Templar song or hymn, but the only Calixtus hymn I've heard previously is "Dum Pater," which seems to be a tribute to St. James the Apostle. It's quite beautiful:

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Dum+Paterfamilias+YouTube+Music&&view=detail&mid=751D9A64BA68D3027C9C751D9A64BA68D3027C9C&&FORM=VRDGAR


    Offline PG

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #11 on: May 24, 2018, 01:03:18 AM »
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  • I hate the anonymous forum.  the last two posts were mine, I went to modify, but quote was the only thing there because I forgot to un anonymous myself, and didnt see it as quote, so it just quoted it instead.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #12 on: May 31, 2018, 04:59:23 PM »
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  • Someone who might know mentioned he thought this was medieval (ie, pre-Tridentine/Baroque) Latin rite singing.

    His rationale was that there were too many solos in these songs (ie, they were not being sung in a proper choir).

    To extrapolate, recalling that Gregorian chant had been lost in the times of the Templars (true?) and this style of singing would therefore tend to authenticate the Templar origins of these variants.

    The weakness of that argument is that these songs may not have been sung as part of the Divine Office (ie, the Salve Regina can be sung as part of Compline, but can also be sung outside the Office), and consequently the absence of a proper Gregorian choir does not NECESSARILY support Templar origin at a time when proper Gregorian chant in choir had largely vanished.

    So I think the jury remains out.

    It would be an interesting research project to explore whether there are any sources evincing Templar compositions.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Melancholic Songs of the Templars
    « Reply #13 on: May 31, 2018, 05:21:57 PM »
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  • Someone who might know mentioned he thought this was medieval (ie, pre-Tridentine/Baroque) Latin rite singing.

    His rationale was that there were too many solos in these songs (ie, they were not being sung in a proper choir).

    To extrapolate, recalling that Gregorian chant had been lost in the times of the Templars (true?) and this style of singing would therefore tend to authenticate the Templar origins of these variants.

    The weakness of that argument is that these songs may not have been sung as part of the Divine Office (ie, the Salve Regina can be sung as part of Compline, but can also be sung outside the Office), and consequently the absence of a proper Gregorian choir does not NECESSARILY support Templar origin at a time when proper Gregorian chant in choir had largely vanished.

    So I think the jury remains out.

    It would be an interesting research project to explore whether there are any sources evincing Templar compositions.
    Not exactly authoritative, but this blog says the Templars definitely sung the songs performed in the OP, and I think actually links to it:
    https://www.beautysoancient.com/three-chants-you-might-have-chanted-as-a-knight-templar-crusader-in-the-middle-ages/