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Author Topic: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist  (Read 1609 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2020, 02:38:50 PM »
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  • Engineering programs in the US are set up expecting students will be in or beyond Calculus I in their first semester, first year. They may have allowance for students to take a math refresher first and then Calculus I second semester, but any later than that is behind schedule.

    My suggestion is take Calc at a community college. Cs may pass, but they're not good indicators for success in engineering school.

    If someone really wants to work in STEM without calc or strong math, consider a program emphasizing computer aided design (CAD). It may be called something other than CAD, such as product design, industrial design, or manufacturing technology.  CAD specialists make good salaries.

    Right, this is similar to my suggestion for enrolling him in a weed-out class.  Make it one of the toughest classes he would have to do well in to have success in the field.  If he can do well there, then take the next steps.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #16 on: December 01, 2020, 02:59:12 PM »
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    Right, this is similar to my suggestion for enrolling him in a weed-out class.  Make it one of the toughest classes he would have to do well in to have success in the field.  If he can do well there, then take the next steps.

    I get your point, but on the other hand, the transition from high school to college takes a learning curve to figure out the new style of teaching/studying.  Starting someone off in a really tough class isn't fair.  Even if someone could handle the course work intellectually, they might struggle with the new environment and the outcome would be just avg.  I know this from personal experience.  And all the more, the transition from home school to college will be extreme.
    .
    I agree with the suggestions to make him pay for the classes.  I agree with the suggestion for him to take classes that are related to engineering/science (i.e. not English 101, or philosophy 101).  I just disagree with the approach that he should make a decision based on just one class.  A few classes aren't going to break the bank and even a few semesters are worth it to make a worthwhile decision.  
    .
    If he does endure and transition from community college to regular college, an engineering degree is typically earned with a B/C avg.  Lots of tests have curves and the teachers challenge them a lot; grades suffer because of it.  If you graduate engineering with over a 3.5 gpa, you're really smart.  I know lots of people with engineering degrees.  A 3.5 gpa in finance, on the other hand, is a cake-walk.  Adjust your expectations, as a parent, is my point.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #17 on: December 01, 2020, 03:26:17 PM »
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  • So after you won the National Spelling Bee, what did you go on to do? [wink]
    You’d be surprised  ;) ;)

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #18 on: December 01, 2020, 03:33:14 PM »
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  • I just disagree with the approach that he should make a decision based on just one class.

    By all means, take some other relevant classes like physics or chemistry.

    I'm saying pay attention to the Calc grade. In the first two years of an engineering program, the #1 predictor of graduation is the grade received in Calc I the first time it is taken. Students with A's and B's graduate at about the same rate but those with C's graduate at a much lower rate.

    That means some graduate, of course. One of my friends failed calc the first time and now has a PhD in engineering (in a math-heavy sub-discipline at that).

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #19 on: December 01, 2020, 03:38:27 PM »
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    I'm saying pay attention to the Calc grade. In the first two years of an engineering program, the #1 predictor of graduation is the grade received in Calc I the first time it is taken. Students with A's and B's graduate at about the same rate but those with C's graduate at a much lower rate.

    Very good point.  I was responding to Ladislaus, but your point is also good.


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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #20 on: December 02, 2020, 03:11:38 AM »
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  • My cousin’s daughter graduated with a 3.0 in engineering in May of 2018.  She rented a one bedroom apartment with two college friends.  Not one found a job in their field of degree and only one had a job that required education beyond high school.  “Carla” ended up working double shifts as a barista and doing gig work for a caterer.  She had an emergency appendectomy with no insurance, and Mom had to foot the medical bill, the rent, and the college loan payments.  Her three jobs just enabled her to survive.  She went on five interviews, three necessitating air travel and missed work, for which Mom also paid.  In March she got laid off and by Easter, she was back in her childhood bedroom and jobless with no prospects.  In September, she got back the part-time job she held since seventh grade, cleaning stalls at a horse stable.  
    Lesson?  Don’t go into engineering unless you’re really top notch.  There’s no demand for mediocre rocket scientists.  Another lesson?   Pay as you go or don’t go! (to college).   

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #21 on: December 02, 2020, 04:19:02 AM »
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  • My cousin’s daughter graduated with a 3.0 in engineering in May of 2018.  She rented a one bedroom apartment with two college friends.  Not one found a job in their field of degree and only one had a job that required education beyond high school.  “Carla” ended up working double shifts as a barista and doing gig work for a caterer.  She had an emergency appendectomy with no insurance, and Mom had to foot the medical bill, the rent, and the college loan payments.  Her three jobs just enabled her to survive.  She went on five interviews, three necessitating air travel and missed work, for which Mom also paid.  In March she got laid off and by Easter, she was back in her childhood bedroom and jobless with no prospects.  In September, she got back the part-time job she held since seventh grade, cleaning stalls at a horse stable.  
    Lesson?  Don’t go into engineering unless you’re really top notch.  There’s no demand for mediocre rocket scientists.  Another lesson?   Pay as you go or don’t go! (to college).  
    I don’t think engineering is for girls. My niece did a half year and dropped out. Nowadays girls want to do what boys do. 
    In our family the children had to pay their own way.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #22 on: December 02, 2020, 04:33:32 AM »
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  • I get your point, but on the other hand, the transition from high school to college takes a learning curve to figure out the new style of teaching/studying.  Starting someone off in a really tough class isn't fair. 

    But that's exactly what most of the competitive programs do.  They're notorious for the "weed out" class in the First Semester of their program.  Typically it's something that a student with the right background and right aptitude CAN pass and it's actually a good barometer for whether the person can succeed in the program.  These programs actually do the students a favor by not having them spend 2-3 years of their time before figuring out that they can't cut it.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #23 on: December 02, 2020, 04:40:10 AM »
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  • Don’t go into engineering unless you’re really top notch.  There’s no demand for mediocre rocket scientists.  Another lesson?   Pay as you go or don’t go! (to college).  

    Correct.  There are just not as many jobs out there in engineering as there used to be.  Given that much of our manufacturing has moved overseas, so too the engineering followed.  I have a brother who got a degree in Mechanical Engineering, toward the top of his class and on a full scholarship.  Well, he graduated right when Bush Sr. made huge defense cuts and so he was competing with engineers with 20 years of experience for entry-level jobs, and of course couldn't get a job under those conditions.  He shifted over to computer science.  And with the arrival of CAD and various other computer design packages, the traditional role of engineer is becoming more and more rare.  If someone wants to make a living these days, they have the best chance by going into either Computer Science of the various Health professions (nursing, etc.).

    Of course, there's always various TRADES ... as college is largely a scam and overrated.  There's always a need for trades, since you cannot offshore carpentry or electrical work, or even auto repair.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #24 on: December 02, 2020, 08:23:37 AM »
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    But that's exactly what most of the competitive programs do.  They're notorious for the "weed out" class in the First Semester of their program.

    Agree, but a community college isn't a competitive program.  I'm all for weed-out classes, just don't make it your first one, in the transition from HS to college.  If it is, then you'll wonder, did I do poorly because I was handicapped in adjusting to college, or from the weed-out class?  Give yourself a fighting chance, that's all i'm saying.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #25 on: December 02, 2020, 08:25:49 AM »
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    If someone wants to make a living these days, they have the best chance by going into either Computer Science of the various Health professions (nursing, etc.).

    ! Great advice!  Computer Science, Coding, etc, that's the future.  All the globalists talking about the "great reset" are talking about computer skills needed for the future.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #26 on: December 02, 2020, 08:51:39 AM »
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  • ! Great advice!  Computer Science, Coding, etc, that's the future.  All the globalists talking about the "great reset" are talking about computer skills needed for the future.

    I'm sure there will also be many openings working for the government:  Contract Tracers, Paper Checkers, Gestapo Block Captains, and Walmart "Greeters" (aka spies), etc.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #27 on: December 02, 2020, 08:52:53 AM »
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  • I'm sure there will also be many openings working for the government:  Contract Tracers, Paper Checkers, Gestapo Block Captains, and Walmart "Greeters" (aka spies), etc.

    Stupid "Anonymous" checkbox.  That was my comment.

    Walmart Greeter:  "Welcome to Walmart; please present your vaccination card."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #28 on: December 02, 2020, 08:55:31 AM »
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  • ! Great advice!  Computer Science, Coding, etc, that's the future.  All the globalists talking about the "great reset" are talking about computer skills needed for the future.

    Actually, many of us in Computer Science have benefitted from COVID.  My company realized that being remote works just as well and that they can save lot of money not leasing an office.  So I get to work from home all the time now and will likely end up doing so for years to come.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Mediocre Son Wants to Be a Rocket Scientist
    « Reply #29 on: December 02, 2020, 09:39:46 AM »
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  • Just realize how competitive Software Engineering is.

    Actually, there are several points about "coding" or computer programming:

    1. It's engineering. Do you tell a laid-off coal worker to become a brain surgeon? A lawyer? Why not? Is it because those jobs aren't within the grasp of everyone? If so, then why would software-based engineering be any different?

    2. Only a small % of my day is spent designing or writing code. That's the FUN part. So much time is spent troubleshooting, debugging, fixing, figuring out and trying to understand EXISTING code, especially messing with libraries, figuring out quirks, etc. And there are other things too -- communication, organization, managing web server software, framework versions, library versions, etc.

    3. It's a hyper-competitive field. Overseas coders can crank out quite a bit of results for $8/hour. If you're not more professional/efficient/better communicator/experienced/genius than them, forget it.

    4. If you weren't attracted to programming for its own sake when you were a kid or teenager, then it's doubtful you'll have enough interest/drive to stay in the field. It's a HARD field to be in.

    5. Here is another point that few people think of: you have to sit at a computer all day, with Internet access. If computer programming (that 10% of your job) isn't somewhat "fun" for you, or wasn't fun at least potentially, then it's going to be that much harder to stay focused at your Internet-enabled computer. If you mostly used a computer for fun, and don't have a history of spending hundreds of hours at your PC doing work (writing programs, games, etc.) then you'll have a hard time in this field.
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