Author Topic: Marrying Later in Life as a Convert (Read 3059 times)

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #60 on:** May 16, 2025, 02:32:05 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 16, 2025, 02:10:32 AM

If you include political marriages this number increases to 40% 14 and under.

More info.
Compared to the modern Era
So you can see that most of the younger marriages for the Saints is bias. More in the next post.

Male Saints

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Men’s Marriage Ages (estimated from prior lists, e.g., Joseph, Malcolm III, as few male saints are married):
14 and under: ~0% (men rarely married this young).

15–16: ~5% (e.g., Bolesław V ~13–15, rare).

17–18: ~10% (young noblemen in political marriages).

19–20: ~15% (e.g., Henry I ~20–25).

21–25: ~30% (common, e.g., Aquila ~20–30).

26–30: ~25% (e.g., Denis ~20–22, older commoners).

30+: ~15% (e.g., Malcolm III ~35–40, Joseph ~20–40).

Note: Men’s data is speculative, as most married saints are women, and husbands’ ages (e.g., Joseph, Publius) are inferred from norms (men typically 20–40).

European Marriage Ages (500 BC–2025)

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Women:
Pre-Christian (500 BC–AD 300): Elite 12–16, commoners 15–20 (Roman minimum 12, Greek ~14–18).

Early Christian (300–1000): Elite 12–16, commoners 15–18 (canon law minimum 12).

Medieval (1000–1500): Nobles 12–16, commoners 15–20.

Early Modern (1500–1800): Nobles 14–18, commoners 18–25 (mean ~20–22, Western Europe).

Modern (1800–1900): 20–25 (mean ~22–24).

Contemporary (1900–2025): 22–26 (1900–1950), 28–32 (2000–2025, Eurostat 2023).

Men:
Pre-Christian: 20–35 (Roman elite ~25–40, Greek ~25–35).

Early Christian: 20–30 (elite older, ~25–40).

Medieval: Nobles 20–30, commoners 20–25.

Early Modern: 25–35 (mean ~25–30, Western Europe).

Modern: 25–30 (mean ~25–28).

Contemporary: 25–30 (1900–1950), 30–35 (2000–2025).

Key Points

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Saints’ Women vs. European Women: Saints’ 65% under 16 aligns with elite early marriages (12–16) in pre-1500 periods but diverges from commoner later marriages (15–25) and modern/contemporary norms (20–32). Canonization favored young, pious, or noble women (e.g., Rita, Hedwig), skewing early.

Saints’ Men vs. European Men: Saints’ men (~50–60% 21–30, 15% 30+) align with European men (20–35) across periods, as men married older. However, data is limited, and saints’ men (e.g., Malcolm III) often reflect elite, older husbands.

Bias: The Church prioritized young, martyred, or elite women, overrepresenting early marriages (65% ≤16) and underrepresenting later ones (10.42% >20), unlike European women’s broader range. Men’s ages are less biased but sparsely docuмented.

Modern Disconnect: Saints’ data (pre-1900) is irrelevant to 1900–2025, where women marry at 28–32 and men at 30–35, reflecting education and economic shifts absent in saints’ narratives.

However it seems suspect that after 1500 the AI gave me broad range of 18-25

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saints’ marriage ages for women align closely with European women’s ages before 1500, with significant divergence after 1500 due to rising marriage ages in Europe, particularly in the early modern and modern periods. The previous grouping of 18–25 in European data (e.g., 18–25 for commoners in 1500–1800) may obscure year-by-year variations. To address your request, I’ll break down the 18–25 age range into individual years (18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25) for both Roman Catholic saints canonized before Pope Pius XII’s death (October 9, 1958) and European women across history (500 BC–2025). I’ll provide percentages for each age relative to total saints and total married saints, and estimate European women’s marriage age distributions year by year within this range. The saints’ data includes political marriages but excludes refusals or unconsummated betrothals. I’ll use prior lists, hagiography, the Roman Martyrology, and historical demographic studies (e.g., Hajnal, Eurostat, web sources like), focusing on post-1500 divergence and refining the granularity of the 18–25 range.

I had to do a little more prompting but I finally got the data and graph I wanted to see.

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Saints’ Marriage Ages (Canonized Before 1958)
Total Saints: ~3,000.

Married Saints: ~240 (8%).

Women’s Marriage Ages (Recap and Expansion):
Prior data:
14 and under: 40.00% of married saints (96/240), 3.20% of total saints.

15–16: 25.00% (60/240), 2.00%.

17–18: 15.00% (36/240), 1.20%.

19–20: 10.00% (24/240), 0.80%.

21–25: 6.00% (14/240), 0.47%.

26–30: 4.00% (9/240), 0.30%.

30+: 0.42% (1/240), 0.03%.

Year-by-Year Breakdown (12–40): Exact ages are rarely recorded, so I’ll interpolate based on prior lists (e.g., Rita ~12–14, Monica ~17–18) and norms (early marriages dominate). For 12–14, 15–16, etc., I’ll distribute percentages within ranges, tapering off for 26–40 due to rarity:
12: ~10% (24/240, part of 14 and under).

13: ~15% (36/240).

14: ~15% (36/240).

15: ~12.5% (30/240, part of 15–16).

16: ~12.5% (30/240).

17: ~7% (16.8/240, part of 17–18).

18: ~8% (19.2/240).

19: ~5% (12/240, part of 19–20).

20: ~5% (12/240).

21–25: ~1.2% each (2.8/240 per year, total 6%).

26–30: ~0.8% each (1.8/240 per year, total 4%).

31–40: ~0.042% each (0.1/240 per year, total ~0.42%, as only ~1 saint marries post-30, e.g., speculative outlier).

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Skew: 65% wed at 16 or younger (40% ≤14, 25% 15–16), reflecting elite and early Christian/medieval norms (e.g., Hedwig ~12–15). Ages 18–40 are only ~31% of married saints, with 26–40 extremely rare.

Bias: Canonization favored young, pious, or noble women, reducing representation of later marriages (e.g., only Monica ~17–18 in 18–25).

European Women’s Marriage Ages (500 BC–2025)

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I’ll estimate year-by-year percentages for ages 12–40, interpolating from mean ages and distributions. Data varies by period, class, and region (Western vs. Southern Europe).
1. Pre-Christian Europe (500 BC–AD 300)
Mean: Elite 12–16, commoners 15–20 (~15–17).

12–40 Breakdown:
12–14: 10% each (30% total, elite focus).

15–16: 15% each (30%).

17–18: 10% each (20%).

19–20: 5% each (10%).

21–25: 2% each (10%).

26–40: 0.2% each (3% total, rare).

2. Early Christian Europe (AD 300–1000)
Mean: Elite 12–16, commoners 15–18 (~15–17).

12–40 Breakdown:
12–14: 10% each (30%).

15–16: 15% each (30%).

17–18: 12% each (24%).

19–20: 5% each (10%).

21–25: 2% each (10%).

26–40: 0.2% each (3%).

3. Medieval Europe (1000–1500)
Mean: Nobles 12–16, commoners 15–20 (~16–18).

12–40 Breakdown:
12–14: 8% each (24%, nobles).

15–16: 12% each (24%).

17–18: 10% each (20%).

19–20: 8% each (16%).

21–25: 3% each (15%).

26–40: 0.1% each (1.5%).

4. Early Modern Europe (1500–1800)
Mean: Nobles 14–18, commoners 18–25 (~20–22 Western Europe, ~16–18 Southern Europe).

12–40 Breakdown (Western Europe, key divergence):
12–14: 2% each (6%, Southern Europe higher).

15–16: 5% each (10%).

17–18: 8% each (16%).

19–20: 10% each (20%).

21–25: 8% each (40%).

26–30: 2% each (10%).

31–40: 0.2% each (2%).

5. Modern Era (1800–1900)
Mean: 20–25 (~22–24).

12–40 Breakdown:
12–16: 1% each (5%, rare).

17–18: 3% each (6%).

19–20: 8% each (16%).

21–25: 12% each (60%).

26–30: 3% each (15%).

31–40: 0.4% each (4%).

6. Contemporary Era (1900–2025)
Mean: 22–26 (1900–1950, ~23–24), 28–32 (2000–2025, ~30).

12–40 Breakdown:
1900–1950:
12–17: <1% each (<5%).

18–19: 3% each (6%).

20–25: 10% each (60%).

26–30: 5% each (25%).

31–40: 1% each (10%).

2000–2025:
12–20: <0.5% each (<3%).

21–25: 2% each (10%).

26–30: 8% each (40%).

31–35: 10% each (50%).

36–40: 2% each (10%).

Look at this graph, isn't it beautiful? Make sure you boyos save it, because I will NEVER let you down.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #61 on:** May 16, 2025, 02:50:43 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 16, 2025, 02:32:05 AM

One finally post on the DATA, just to make it more clear.

SAINTS
>14 and under: 40.00% of married saints (96/240), 3.20% of total saints.
>15–16: 25.00% (60/240), 2.00%.
>17–18: 15.00% (36/240), 1.20%.
>19–20: 10.00% (24/240), 0.80%.
>21–25: 6.00% (14/240), 0.47%.
>26–30: 4.00% (9/240), 0.30%.
>30+: 0.42% (1/240), 0.03%.

European Women’s Marriage Ages (500 BC–2025)

I’ll estimate year-by-year percentages for ages 12–40, interpolating from mean ages and distributions. Data varies by period, class, and region (Western vs. Southern Europe).

1. Pre-Christian Europe (500 BC–AD 300)
>Mean: Elite 12–16, commoners 15–20 (~15–17).
12–40 Breakdown:
>12–14: 10% each (30% total, elite focus).
>15–16: 15% each (30%).
>17–18: 10% each (20%).
>19–20: 5% each (10%).
>21–25: 2% each (10%).
>26–40: 0.2% each (3% total, rare).

2. Early Christian Europe (AD 300–1000)
>Mean: Elite 12–16, commoners 15–18 (~15–17).
12–40 Breakdown:
>12–14: 10% each (30%).
>15–16: 15% each (30%).
>17–18: 12% each (24%).
>19–20: 5% each (10%).
>21–25: 2% each (10%).
>26–40: 0.2% each (3%).

3. Medieval Europe (1000–1500)
>Mean: Nobles 12–16, commoners 15–20 (~16–18).
12–40 Breakdown:
>12–14: 8% each (24%, nobles).
>15–16: 12% each (24%).
>17–18: 10% each (20%).
>19–20: 8% each (16%).
>21–25: 3% each (15%).
>26–40: 0.1% each (1.5%).

4. Early Modern Europe (1500–1800)
>Mean: Nobles 14–18, commoners 18–25 (~20–22 Western Europe, ~16–18 Southern Europe).
12–40 Breakdown (Western Europe, key divergence):
>12–14: 2% each (6%, Southern Europe higher).
>15–16: 5% each (10%).
>17–18: 8% each (16%).
>19–20: 10% each (20%).
>21–25: 8% each (40%).
>26–30: 2% each (10%).
>31–40: 0.2% each (2%).

5. Modern Era (1800–1900)
>Mean: 20–25 (~22–24).
12–40 Breakdown:
>12–16: 1% each (5%, rare).
>17–18: 3% each (6%).
>19–20: 8% each (16%).
>21–25: 12% each (60%).
>26–30: 3% each (15%).
>31–40: 0.4% each (4%).

6. Contemporary Era (1900–2025)
>Mean: 22–26 (1900–1950, ~23–24), 28–32 (2000–2025, ~30).
12–40 Breakdown:
1900–1950:
>12–17: <1% each (<5%).
>18–19: 3% each (6%).
>20–25: 10% each (60%).
>26–30: 5% each (25%).
>31–40: 1% each (10%).

2000–2025:
>12–20: <0.5% each (<3%).
>21–25: 2% each (10%).
>26–30: 8% each (40%).
>31–35: 10% each (50%).
>36–40: 2% each (10%).

Can you not see the insane increase in marriage ages for 1900+?
By biggest age groups it's

SAINTS
>14 and under: 40.00% of married saints

(500 BC–AD 300)
>Elite 12–16, commoners 15–20 (~15–17)

Early Christian Europe (AD 300–1000)
>Mean: Elite 12–16, commoners 15–18 (~15–17).

Medieval Europe (1000–1500)
>Mean: Nobles 12–16, commoners 15–20 (~16–18).

Early Modern Europe (1500–1800)
>Mean: Nobles 14–18, commoners 18–25 (~20–22 Western Europe, ~16–18 Southern Europe).

Modern Era (1800–1900)
>Mean: 20–25 (~22–24).

Contemporary Era (1900–2025)
>Mean: 22–26 (1900–1950, ~23–24), 28–32 (2000–2025, ~30).

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #62 on:** May 16, 2025, 03:21:47 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 16, 2025, 02:50:43 AM

One finally post on the DATA, just to make it more clear.

SAINTS
>14 and under: 40.00% of married saints (96/240), 3.20% of total saints.
>15–16: 25.00% (60/240), 2.00%.
>17–18: 15.00% (36/240), 1.20%.

Pre-Christian Europe (500 BC–AD 300)
>12–14: 10% each (30% total, elite focus).
>15–16: 15% each (30%).
>17–18: 10% each (20%).

Early Christian Europe (AD 300–1000)
>12–14: 10% each (30%).
>15–16: 15% each (30%).
>17–18: 12% each (24%).

Medieval Europe (1000–1500)
>12–14: 8% each (24%, nobles).
>15–16: 12% each (24%).
>17–18: 10% each (20%).

Early Modern Europe (1500–1800)
>17–18: 8% each (16%).
>19–20: 10% each (20%).
>21–25: 8% each (40%).

Modern Era (1800–1900)
>19–20: 8% each (16%).
>21–25: 12% each (60%).
>26–30: 3% each (15%).

1900–1950:
>20–25: 10% each (60%).
>26–30: 5% each (25%).
>31–40: 1% each (10%).

2000–2025:
>21–25: 2% each (10%).
>26–30: 8% each (40%).
>31–35: 10% each (50%).
>36–40: 2% each (10%).

So after 1500AD the gaps get higher, however there is a massive increase in age after 2000 and I suspect that number after 2030 will be even worse.

50% at 31-35 is insane to me. Compared to 1000 years earlier that 50% was 12-16, that's more than double.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #63 on:** May 16, 2025, 03:23:49 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 16, 2025, 03:21:47 AM

So after 1500AD the gaps get higher, however there is a massive increase in age after 2000 and I suspect that number after 2030 will be even worse.

50% at 31-35 is insane to me. Compared to 1000 years earlier that 50% was 12-16, that's more than double.

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1. Pre-1500 Context: Why 50% Married at 12–16
Social Norms: Marriage was a key social institution for securing alliances, property, and lineage, especially among elites. Noble girls married at 12–16 to cement political ties (e.g., Hedwig ~12–15), while commoners married slightly later (15–20) but still young to ensure fertility.

Economic Factors: Agrarian societies valued early marriage to maximize childbearing and labor. Girls were seen as economic assets (e.g., dowries, household work), marrying as soon as puberty allowed (canon law minimum 12).

Legal and Cultural Support: Roman law (minimum 12) and Church canon law (12 for girls, 14 for boys) normalized early marriage. High mortality rates encouraged early unions to ensure heirs.

Result: ~50% of girls married at 12–16, especially elites, with commoners peaking at 15–18, as seen in saints’ data (65% ≤16, e.g., Rita ~12–14).

2. Post-1500 Shift: Why Ages Rose to 21–25 (1500–1900)
After 1500, marriage ages in Western Europe (less so in Southern/Eastern Europe) increased, with commoner women marrying at 18–25 (mean 20–22 by 1700–1800) and peaking at 21–25 (40–60% in 1500–1900). Key reasons:
Western European Marriage Pattern (WEMP):
Economic Independence: The WEMP, identified by Hajnal, emphasized late marriage and nuclear households. Couples delayed marriage until they could establish an independent household, requiring savings or land. Men married at 25–30, women at 20–25, unlike earlier arranged marriages at 12–16.

Servanthood and Apprenticeship: Young women (and men) worked as servants or apprentices in their teens, delaying marriage until they accuмulated resources (e.g., dowry, skills). This pushed commoner women’s marriage age to ~21–25.

Urbanization and Proto-Industrialization:
Urban growth (e.g., 16th–18th centuries) created wage labor opportunities, encouraging women to work longer before marriage. Proto-industrial activities (e.g., textile production) gave women economic roles, delaying marriage to ~20–22.

Cultural Shifts:
Renaissance and Reformation ideas emphasized individual choice and companionate marriage, reducing parental pressure for early unions. Women gained slightly more agency, marrying later (e.g., 19–25 in England by 1600).

Protestant regions (e.g., England, Netherlands) discouraged child marriage, raising social norms to 18–25, though Catholic Southern Europe (e.g., Italy) retained earlier marriages (~15–18).

Legal Changes:
Some regions raised minimum marriage ages (e.g., England’s 16 with consent by 1753 Hardwicke Act), though enforcement was uneven. Canon law’s 12 minimum persisted but was less relevant as social norms shifted.

Demographic Pressures:
Lower mortality rates (post-Black Death recovery) reduced urgency for early marriage. High celibacy rates (~10–20% never married) reflected economic constraints, further delaying marriages to 21–25.

Result: By 1500–1800, 40% of Western European women married at 21–25 (vs. ~10–20% at 12–16), with Southern Europe lagging (15–18). By 1800–1900, ~60% married at 21–25, with 12–16 nearly obsolete (5%).

Why the Shift Seems Dramatic:
From 12–16 to 21–25 is a ~5–10-year jump, driven by economic independence and cultural changes that broke from feudal, alliance-driven marriages. This contrasts with saints’ data (65% ≤16, pre-1500 bias), which reflects elite, early norms irrelevant to post-1500 commoners.

3. Post-2000 Shift: Why Ages Rose to 31–35 (2000–2025)
The further increase to 31–35 (mean ~30, Eurostat 2023) in 2000–2025, with ~50% marrying at 31–35 and <3% at 12–20, is even more striking. Key reasons:
Education and Career Prioritization:
Women’s access to higher education (e.g., 60% of EU university graduates are women, 2020) delays marriage. Extended schooling (to ~22–25) and career establishment push marriage to 30–35.

Professional ambitions and financial independence mean women prioritize careers over early family formation, unlike pre-1500’s focus on fertility.

Economic Pressures:
High living costs, housing shortages, and job insecurity (e.g., gig economy) require couples to delay marriage until financial stability (~30–35). This extends the WEMP’s logic of economic independence.

Dual-income households are now standard, with women contributing significantly, further delaying marriage to establish careers.

Cultural and Social Changes:
Gender equality and feminist movements have normalized women’s autonomy, reducing pressure to marry young. Cohabitation (e.g., 40% of EU couples cohabit before marriage, 2020) replaces early marriage, with couples testing relationships into their 30s.

Declining religious influence (e.g., secularization in Europe) weakens traditional expectations of early marriage, unlike pre-1500’s Church-driven norms.

Individualism emphasizes personal fulfillment, delaying marriage until emotional and financial readiness (~31–35).

Legal and Demographic Factors:
Legal minimums (16–18 with consent, e.g., EU laws) and social stigma eliminate child marriage (<1% <18). Improved healthcare and lower fertility rates (e.g., EU fertility rate ~1.5, 2020) reduce urgency for early childbearing.

Longer life expectancy (e.g., 82 years for women, 2020) extends life stages, making 31–35 a “normal” marriage age, unlike pre-1500’s shorter lifespans (40–50 years).

Result: ~50% of women marry at 31–35, with 21–25 at ~10% and 12–20 at <3%, reflecting a complete shift from early marriage norms.

Why This Seems “Insane and Abnormal”:
The jump from 21–25 (1800–1900) to 31–35 (2000–2025) is a 10-year increase, driven by unprecedented education, economic, and cultural shifts. Compared to pre-1500’s 12–16 (50%), a 20-year delay feels extreme, as it inverts historical priorities (early fertility vs. career/autonomy). Saints’ data (65% ≤16, 0.42% >30) is anachronistic, highlighting the Church’s bias toward pre-modern norms.

Comparison to Saints’ Data
Pre-1500: Saints’ 65% ≤16 (e.g., Rita ~12–14) matches European elite women (12–16, ~50%). No divergence, as early marriage was universal.

1500–1800: Saints’ 65% ≤16 contrasts with European commoners’ 21–25 (~40%), as saints reflect Southern European nobles (14–18) and pre-1500 bias. Only 25% of saints marry at 18–25 (vs. ~60% European).

1800–1900: Saints’ 12–16 (40%) is outdated vs. European 21–25 (60%). Saints’ 4% at 26–30 and 0.42% at 31–40 miss the 20–25 norm.

2000–2025: Saints’ data (pre-1900) is irrelevant to 31–35 (~50%), with <3% at 12–20 vs. European <3%. Saints’ 0.42% at 31–40 contrasts with ~60% European.

Why the Increases Happened
Post-1500 (21–25): Economic independence (WEMP), urbanization, and cultural shifts (individual choice) delayed marriage from 12–16 to 21–25, breaking from feudal early marriage for alliances or fertility.

Post-2000 (31–35): Education, career focus, gender equality, and economic pressures extended delays, with cohabitation and secularization replacing early marriage. Modern lifespans and low fertility rates make 31–35 viable, unlike pre-1500’s urgency.

Why It Feels Abnormal:
Historically, early marriage (12–16) was tied to survival (childbearing, alliances) in high-mortality, agrarian societies. Post-1500 economic and post-2000 cultural shifts prioritized autonomy and stability, delaying marriage to ages unimaginable in pre-modern contexts. The saints’ data, frozen in pre-1500 norms, amplifies this contrast, making 31–35 seem “insane” against a backdrop of young saints (e.g., Elizabeth of Portugal ~11–12).

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #64 on:** May 16, 2025, 03:58:29 AM »

Short version
>Renaissance and Reformation ideas emphasized individual choice and companionate marriage, reducing parental pressure for early unions. Women gained slightly more agency, marrying later (e.g., 19–25 in England by 1600).
>Protestant regions (e.g., England, Netherlands) discouraged child marriage, raising social norms to 18–25, though Catholic Southern Europe (e.g., Italy) retained earlier marriages (~15–18).
>Women’s access to higher education (e.g., 60% of EU university graduates are women, 2020) delays marriage. Extended schooling (to ~22–25) and career establishment push marriage to 30–35.
>Professional ambitions and financial independence mean women prioritize careers over early family formation, unlike pre-1500’s focus on fertility.
>High living costs, housing shortages, and job insecurity (e.g., gig economy) require couples to delay marriage until financial stability (~30–35). This extends the WEMP’s logic of economic independence.
>Dual-income households are now standard, with women contributing significantly, further delaying marriage to establish careers.
>Gender equality and feminist movements have normalized women’s autonomy, reducing pressure to marry young. Cohabitation (e.g., 40% of EU couples cohabit before marriage, 2020) replaces early marriage, with couples testing relationships into their 30s.
>Declining religious influence (e.g., secularization in Europe) weakens traditional expectations of early marriage, unlike pre-1500’s Church-driven norms.
>Individualism emphasizes personal fulfillment, delaying marriage until emotional and financial readiness (~31–35).
>Legal minimums (16–18 with consent, e.g., EU laws) and social stigma eliminate child marriage (<1% <18). Improved healthcare and lower fertility rates (e.g., EU fertility rate ~1.5, 2020) reduce urgency for early childbearing.

Even more short version

>things get more expensive due to shift from Agrarian to Industrial - delaying marriage
>women enter workforce - delaying marriage
>women get education - delaying marriage
>protestant and freemasonic ideas giving women more choice - delaying marriage

The jump from 21–25 (1800–1900) to 31–35 (2000–2025) is a 10-year increase, driven by unprecedented education, economic, and cultural shifts. Compared to pre-1500’s 12–16 (50%), a 20-year delay feels extreme, as it inverts historical priorities (early fertility vs. career/autonomy). Saints’ data (65% ≤16, 0.42% >30) is anachronistic, highlighting the Church’s bias toward pre-modern norms.

Post-1500 (21–25): Economic independence (WEMP), urbanization, and cultural shifts (individual choice) delayed marriage from 12–16 to 21–25, breaking from feudal early marriage for alliances or fertility.

Post-2000 (31–35): Education, career focus, gender equality, and economic pressures extended delays, with cohabitation and secularization replacing early marriage. Modern lifespans and low fertility rates make 31–35 viable, unlike pre-1500’s urgency. ("viable", what rubbish, things have never been worse, more unmarried, more outside of marriage children, more divorce, more single lonely people)

So basically jews, freemasons and protestants have resulted in

Result: ~50% of women marry at 31–35, with 21–25 at ~10% and 12–20 at <3%, reflecting a complete shift from early marriage norms.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #65 on:** May 16, 2025, 04:08:51 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 16, 2025, 03:58:29 AM

Short version
>Renaissance and Reformation ideas emphasized individual choice and companionate marriage, reducing parental pressure for early unions. Women gained slightly more agency, marrying later (e.g., 19–25 in England by 1600).
>Protestant regions (e.g., England, Netherlands) discouraged child marriage, raising social norms to 18–25, though Catholic Southern Europe (e.g., Italy) retained earlier marriages (~15–18).
>Women’s access to higher education (e.g., 60% of EU university graduates are women, 2020) delays marriage. Extended schooling (to ~22–25) and career establishment push marriage to 30–35.
>Professional ambitions and financial independence mean women prioritize careers over early family formation, unlike pre-1500’s focus on fertility.
>High living costs, housing shortages, and job insecurity (e.g., gig economy) require couples to delay marriage until financial stability (~30–35). This extends the WEMP’s logic of economic independence.
>Dual-income households are now standard, with women contributing significantly, further delaying marriage to establish careers.
>Gender equality and feminist movements have normalized women’s autonomy, reducing pressure to marry young. Cohabitation (e.g., 40% of EU couples cohabit before marriage, 2020) replaces early marriage, with couples testing relationships into their 30s.
>Declining religious influence (e.g., secularization in Europe) weakens traditional expectations of early marriage, unlike pre-1500’s Church-driven norms.
>Individualism emphasizes personal fulfillment, delaying marriage until emotional and financial readiness (~31–35).
>Legal minimums (16–18 with consent, e.g., EU laws) and social stigma eliminate child marriage (<1% <18). Improved healthcare and lower fertility rates (e.g., EU fertility rate ~1.5, 2020) reduce urgency for early childbearing.

Even more short version

>things get more expensive due to shift from Agrarian to Industrial - delaying marriage
>women enter workforce - delaying marriage
>women get education - delaying marriage
>protestant and freemasonic ideas giving women more choice - delaying marriage

The jump from 21–25 (1800–1900) to 31–35 (2000–2025) is a 10-year increase, driven by unprecedented education, economic, and cultural shifts. Compared to pre-1500’s 12–16 (50%), a 20-year delay feels extreme, as it inverts historical priorities (early fertility vs. career/autonomy). Saints’ data (65% ≤16, 0.42% >30) is anachronistic, highlighting the Church’s bias toward pre-modern norms.

Post-1500 (21–25): Economic independence (WEMP), urbanization, and cultural shifts (individual choice) delayed marriage from 12–16 to 21–25, breaking from feudal early marriage for alliances or fertility.

Post-2000 (31–35): Education, career focus, gender equality, and economic pressures extended delays, with cohabitation and secularization replacing early marriage. Modern lifespans and low fertility rates make 31–35 viable, unlike pre-1500’s urgency. ("viable", what rubbish, things have never been worse, more unmarried, more outside of marriage children, more divorce, more single lonely people)

So basically jews, freemasons and protestants have resulted in

Result: ~50% of women marry at 31–35, with 21–25 at ~10% and 12–20 at <3%, reflecting a complete shift from early marriage norms.

Finally the real icing on the cake

>Lower mortality rates (post-Black Death recovery) reduced urgency for early marriage. High celibacy rates (~10–20% never married) reflected economic constraints, further delaying marriages to 21–25.
>high celibacy
>10-20%
Oh man, so 10-20% celibacy is supposed to be 'high'. Compared with what's happening with modern men (marriage for women) that number is extremely LOW. The data is very clear, and things will only get worse.

So I expect more secular people not to get married at all and for Catholics to also get married abnormally late. Fathers/ladies if you find a good Catholic man who can provide, try to snag him while he is available.

I really hope people here read the data, this isn't just about what is ideal, the data shows a clear INVERSION (and inversion is usually satanic) all stemming from Jєωιѕн doctrines (mentioned above). Catholic history shows that women mainly got married under 20, with most getting married 12-16 before the protestant revolt. So for those Catholics on this forum saying things like "oh 14 is too young", "she can't consent" "blah blah blah feminism" please really consider the FACTUAL INFORMATION.

I do understand that under 18 parents have to give consent but don't go full retarded and treat your children like infants who can't make decisions. Use prudence not emotional reasoning, because your emotions are (and proven by many comments on CI) easily influenced by propaganda.

Just remember these things

In history and Catholic history most girls got married in their teens
Biology shows that teenage girls are ideal
Legal working age is about 14
Driving learners permit is around 16 but as young as 14 in some states
Age of reason is usually around 7 meaning your child can CONSENT to MORTAL SIN and be damned for all eternity
Everything that has increased the age of marriage stems from anti-Catholic ideology

WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat · « **Reply #66 on:** May 16, 2025, 04:55:04 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 16, 2025, 01:51:05 AM

The term is pearl-clutching.

And it perfectly describes their comment. They ignore, history, biology and Canon Law in favour of feminism. There have been plenty of Saints married younger than 16. To say that no 14yr old can ever consent is completely disingenuous. And frankly it's vile when you consider that the Blessed Virgin Mary gave consent to conceive by the Holy Ghost, oh but I guess our Blessed Lady was too young to consent.
I asked an AI to give me Saints married under 16, you should really consider why I made this post. I really HATE feminism.

Now let's look at age distribution for 'all Saints'.

As you can see most Canonised Saints got married 14 and under. According to this data 75% of Saints got married 18 and under. Look if I see stupid feminist garbage I will utterly annihilate your delusional brainwashing with facts. Cope and Seethe. 14 is fine for a women to get married provided their parents agree.

Indeed.
Look, man, here's the bottom line on these downhill feminists. They know they have a LOW ATTRACTION MARKET VALUE, especially compared to a post-pubescent teenage female in her biological prime. That's why they gnash their teeth at, and gaslight, men because the men aren't really interested in these biological rejects. These old shoes and rotund creatures are simply no competition for the teenagers. So they try to create social stigmas against men who have a healthy, natural biological drive and attraction for the teen females.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #67 on:** May 16, 2025, 06:30:19 AM »

Quote from: WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat on May 16, 2025, 04:55:04 AM

Indeed.
Look, man, here's the bottom line on these downhill feminists. They know they have a LOW ATTRACTION MARKET VALUE, especially compared to a post-pubescent teenage female in her biological prime. That's why they gnash their teeth at, and gaslight, men because the men aren't really interested in these biological rejects. These old shoes and rotund creatures are simply no competition for the teenagers. So they try to create social stigmas against men who have a healthy, natural biological drive and attraction for the teen females.

Actually I believe most of the women on this forum are married, I could be wrong though, lots of lurkers Compared to posters.

WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat · « **Reply #68 on:** May 16, 2025, 06:37:09 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 16, 2025, 06:30:19 AM

Actually I believe most of the women on this forum are married, I could be wrong though, lots of lurkers Compared to posters.

Yeah but they still resent a man being attracted to the chicky chics rather than themselves who have little to no Attraction Market Value. They're vindictive for this reason.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #69 on:** May 16, 2025, 08:49:23 AM »

Quote from: WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat on May 16, 2025, 04:55:04 AM

Indeed.
Look, man, here's the bottom line on these downhill feminists. They know they have a LOW ATTRACTION MARKET VALUE, especially compared to a post-pubescent teenage female in her biological prime. That's why they gnash their teeth at, and gaslight, men because the men aren't really interested in these biological rejects. These old shoes and rotund creatures are simply no competition for the teenagers. So they try to create social stigmas against men who have a healthy, natural biological drive and attraction for the teen females.

I think your words are harsh/cruel and not true. But I think there are serious issues in the dating market, even among Trads. In my small chapel there isn't many white men, there a some but some of them took the (((vaccines))). There are also not many women in the 20+ age, infact there are many more teenage girls than 20+ girls, most of the 20+ girls are married. There is also a lot of non-whites.

Frankly I see more white teen girls than white men (including both teen and 20s men) and maybe a similar amount of non-white to whites. So as a unvaxxed white male in my 20s with no history of family baldness, I think my value is pretty good. The only question remains is how feminist the fathers/families are when I am ready to provide for a family. So far there is one 17yr old girl (who is very beautiful) who seems to like me. I wouldn't mind marrying her even if she was in her 20s because I have good feelings for her, though I still need to be prudent about my beliefs and hers, making sure we are both on the same page and all.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #70 on:** May 16, 2025, 09:08:17 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 16, 2025, 08:49:23 AM

I think your words are harsh/cruel and not true. But I think there are serious issues in the dating market, even among Trads. In my small chapel there isn't many white men, there a some but some of them took the (((vaccines))). There are also not many women in the 20+ age, infact there are many more teenage girls than 20+ girls, most of the 20+ girls are married. There is also a lot of non-whites.

Frankly I see more white teen girls than white men (including both teen and 20s men) and maybe a similar amount of non-white to whites. So as a unvaxxed white male in my 20s with no history of family baldness, I think my value is pretty good. The only question remains is how feminist the fathers/families are when I am ready to provide for a family. So far there is one 17yr old girl (who is very beautiful) who seems to like me. I wouldn't mind marrying her even if she was in her 20s because I have good feelings for her, though I still need to be prudent about my beliefs and hers, making sure we are both on the same page and all.

I forgot to mention. There are a few guys in their late 20s/ early 30s that I don't think they will be able to find someone locally. Frankly they don't have the appearance or financial status to attract a teenage girl. And there is a strange absent of 20-30 yr old women. I'm not sure where they went as when I converted there was maybe 2 or 3. I think one got married overseas and moved countries, one got married locally, and another met someone I think through daddy's connections.

There are definitely plenty of prepubescent children so long term seems fine but the men who are past 25 will struggle to find someone locally unless they are exceptional to attract a teenage girl or when they in their 30s marry a now 20s girl (who is currently a teen).

But since there are more white teen girls than white teen men/20s white men, I definitely see some problems. Either they find someone at another chapel while young taking advantage of their youthful charm, or they 'settle' for one of the few older white males, or they look elsewhere when they are older.

I personally don't want people to be lonely. The amount of non-whites does not help the dating pool as most will probably not racemix but take their chances online/elsewhere.

I wonder how many registered users CI has and how many trads are out there? Is CI the biggest trad site? Has anyone used a trad dating site? What was it like?

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #71 on:** May 16, 2025, 10:16:20 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 15, 2025, 11:03:00 PM

This statement, and the very structure of the wording reeks of reddit/feminism.

The following image is how I imagine people who make such statements.

Feminism? You do know that no cleric will marry you without a state marriage license, right? And said marriage license can't be obtained by 14-year olds in most states. In most states, it is 18, no exceptions. This is one case where civil law overrides Canon Law

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #72 on:** May 16, 2025, 10:26:02 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 16, 2025, 01:51:05 AM

The term is pearl-clutching.

And it perfectly describes their comment. They ignore, history, biology and Canon Law in favour of feminism. There have been plenty of Saints married younger than 16. To say that no 14yr old can ever consent is completely disingenuous. And frankly it's vile when you consider that the Blessed Virgin Mary gave consent to conceive by the Holy Ghost, oh but I guess our Blessed Lady was too young to consent.
I asked an AI to give me Saints married under 16, you should really consider why I made this post. I really HATE feminism.

Now let's look at age distribution for 'all Saints'.

As you can see most Canonised Saints got married 14 and under. According to this data 75% of Saints got married 18 and under. Look if I see stupid feminist garbage I will utterly annihilate your delusional brainwashing with facts. Cope and Seethe. 14 is fine for a women to get married provided their parents agree.

Ok Fathers with 14 year old daughters, are you ready to marry them off? Please speak up.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #73 on:** May 16, 2025, 11:36:55 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 16, 2025, 08:49:23 AM

I think your words are harsh/cruel and not true. But I think there are serious issues in the dating market, even among Trads. In my small chapel there isn't many white men, there a some but some of them took the (((vaccines))). There are also not many women in the 20+ age, infact there are many more teenage girls than 20+ girls, most of the 20+ girls are married. There is also a lot of non-whites.

Frankly I see more white teen girls than white men (including both teen and 20s men) and maybe a similar amount of non-white to whites. So as a unvaxxed white male in my 20s with no history of family baldness, I think my value is pretty good. The only question remains is how feminist the fathers/families are when I am ready to provide for a family. So far there is one 17yr old girl (who is very beautiful) who seems to like me. I wouldn't mind marrying her even if she was in her 20s because I have good feelings for her, though I still need to be prudent about my beliefs and hers, making sure we are both on the same page and all.

All the best laid plans fall apart when measured up to reality.

The most important choice in a wife is does she love God as Mark 12:30 asks her to " And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment."

Youth will fade.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #74 on:** May 16, 2025, 12:10:34 PM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 16, 2025, 10:26:02 AM

Ok Fathers with 14 year old daughters, are you ready to marry them off? Please speak up.

Maybe we should make a poll.

Author Topic: Marrying Later in Life as a Convert (Read 3059 times)

Änσnymσus

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