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Author Topic: Marry without love for son  (Read 5513 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Marry without love for son
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2024, 08:48:25 AM »
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    • I would certainly avoid the possible sacrilege of having her be baptized if she doesn't have the faith and isn't a serious/dedicated Catholic.  Marriage is nevertheless possible, even if she's not baptized ... IF she agrees to help raise your son as a Catholic.

    I think you have to weigh the impact on your son, and it would be dishonest to pretend that you love this woman if you don't, and not fair to her.

    Finally, if she's liable to walk out on you (which is sounds like she is and would have little hesitation if things got tough), then you could be in a situation where you could be stuck in a marriage after she had left.

    I would recommend praying a 54-day Rosary Novena (15 decades each day) asking God to help you know the right thing to do.

    If your son would be traumatized by the divorce, you might go one way, but then she could also end up being an extremely bad influence in raising him (in which case you'd be better off ... IF you could get sole custody).  If you can't get sole custody, her potential bad influence would remain anyway AND your son would still be traumatized by the divorce.  But if your relationship is bad enough, he may be more traumatized if you stay.

    So it's a very difficult set of prudential considerations that you'll need to seek God's assistance about ... but please don't have her go through the motions of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism if she doesn't really have the faith and isn't committed to it.  I've seen these "Baptism of convenience" scenarios go very wrong, and I believe it was a way for the devil to enter and become more active, perhaps due to the sacrilege of an insincere Baptism.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #16 on: January 15, 2024, 08:54:35 AM »
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    • If the various "rules" you mentioned are the big problem, prudence might suggest easing up on them.  Rebuking the sinner is only required when you think it will be well received and will actually correct the sin.  Maybe you can strike a compromise where she dresses modestly at Mass and she could have a TV, even if you don't watch it and don't let your son watch it.  If she doesn't have the faith and doesn't have the right motivation to comply with those rules, imposing them first, before she's persuaded of the faith might cause her to rebel, and if those are the only things standing in the way of creating a stable situation for your son, you might consider easing up on these things.  You could think that you're responsible for any of the effects of her immodest dress, for instance, but if you break up, she's going to do that anyway.  Lots of prudential judgment calls that you need God's help her to navigate.

    Just think about being a worldling and then suddenly going from 0 to 60, as it were ... and feeling like you're now having to start living like an Amish person.  That can be a shock to one's system, and might suggest a very gradual introduction of things, prioritized.  As I said, maybe start with a couple things and ease into them.  Once she gets used to one or two rules, it'll be easier to introduce another one, then another one, and over time (with patience), she might get there ... whereas abruptly imposing all these rules might cause her to snap.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #17 on: January 15, 2024, 09:01:06 AM »
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    • Ladislaus is right, this is about prudence (applying principles to a specific circuмstance) rather than some kind of blanket dogma that applies in all cases.

    And there are many unknowns that would have to be known before a right decision could be made. The exact nature of your relationship now, for example. Those are things a priest (for example) would need to know, to help you decide. But ultimately it's your decision --

    That is why it's difficult for strangers on the Internet to truly give you complete advice in this matter. Ladislaus gave the ultimate response that can be given, under the circuмstances. Notice how many times he admitted he didn't know this or that, and how that would affect the decision to be made.

    Ladislaus gave the best (dare I say "priestly") answer; as you might know he spent years at a Trad seminary.
    Closely followed by the good advice in this post:
    https://www.cathinfo.com/anonymous-posts-allowed/marry-without-love-for-son/msg922674/#msg922674

    But unfortunately there's no cheat code or easy answer that can be given out, in a case like this. Which is very difficult on the advice-giver, believe me.
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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #18 on: January 15, 2024, 09:34:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 15, 2024, 06:41:48 AM
    I'll chime in with the others and recommend speaking with your priest. Here are my 2 cents:

    However, I disagree with the bolded ... for now....given where she is at spiritually. Even most NO Catholics would balk at these things. You definitely have to pick your battles, and IMO this isn't it.  Meet her halfway, and that might soften her willingness to come to Catholicism.
    Absolutely not, that is the bare minimum. That's literally Vatican II, let's compromise the faith so that people convert, insane.
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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #19 on: January 15, 2024, 09:36:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 15, 2024, 09:34:35 AM
    Absolutely not, that is the bare minimum. That's literally Vatican II, let's compromise the faith so that people convert, insane.
    I'm talking about the tights, obviously, letting go of the TV I agree would be a bit too much for a non-Catholic.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #20 on: January 15, 2024, 10:09:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on January 15, 2024, 09:01:06 AM
    Ladislaus is right, this is about prudence (applying principles to a specific circuмstance) rather than some kind of blanket dogma that applies in all cases.

    And there are many unknowns that would have to be known before a right decision could be made. The exact nature of your relationship now, for example. Those are things a priest (for example) would need to know, to help you decide. But ultimately it's your decision --

    That is why it's difficult for strangers on the Internet to truly give you complete advice in this matter. Ladislaus gave the ultimate response that can be given, under the circuмstances. Notice how many times he admitted he didn't know this or that, and how that would affect the decision to be made.

    Ladislaus gave the best (dare I say "priestly") answer; as you might know he spent years at a Trad seminary.
    Closely followed by the good advice in this post:
    https://www.cathinfo.com/anonymous-posts-allowed/marry-without-love-for-son/msg922674/#msg922674

    But unfortunately there's no cheat code or easy answer that can be given out, in a case like this. Which is very difficult on the advice-giver, believe me.

    Yeah, I didn't mean to be giving any kind of direct advice, but just wanted to throw a few extra considerations into the mix that should be considered.  As you mention, we know almost nothing about the particulars that would need to be known to make a prudent decision about how to proceed, and recommended the Rosary Novena to help God guide you.  Our human prudence can only take us so far, but God knows the future (which is present to Him) and knows all the outcomes of every possible decision or permutation of decisions we can make and He alone knows what ultimately will lead to the best outcome.

    Mostly I wanted to emphasize that there are a lot of prudential considerations involved, where there may not necessarily be a perfect decision or ideal state.  Prudence is sometimes the forgotten virtue as people tend to focus on the principles that represent the ideal.
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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #21 on: January 15, 2024, 10:18:19 AM »
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    • Not to sound flippant, but "getting rid of the TV" doesn't make much sense this day and age especially with computer monitors and cellphones. The virtue lies in not abusing the tech and binge watching stuff, not the TV itself. It was different when Fr. Feeney was alive because computers and phones weren't a thing. The TV was pumping straight trash and it was all that was available. Today we have much more control over what we consume than then. So, I'm not in the "throw your tv out" camp, but just put it in a discrete place, smaller, and use it sparingly to watch good things.

    But yeah Ladislaus made good points.

    Also, pretty sure if two non-Catholics marry and one becomes Catholic they can get the Pauline Privilege to dissolve the marriage.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #22 on: January 15, 2024, 12:56:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 15, 2024, 10:18:19 AM
    Also, pretty sure if two non-Catholics marry and one becomes Catholic they can get the Pauline Privilege to dissolve the marriage.

    Right, assuming it was a valid marriage in the first place.  Given that OP stated that they just "married" so she could stay in the country with the thought they could split up later, it may not have been a valid marriage at all.  So I think his question is whether he SHOULD marry her.  And it may not be entirely up to him.  If the woman is unwilling to commit to an indissoluble bond, she may not have the correct dispositions to marry validly anyway ... and that would in fact take care of OP's dilemma entirely, where he'd have little choice but to separate from her unless some priest considered it advisable for them to remain together as brother and sister for the sake of the child.  In either case, however, if she's unwilling to marry him (and it sounds like she may not be willing), the OP really has no option to marry her, without love, for their son ... since you can't unilaterally contract marriage.

    So, this does raise a good point, OP.  If your initial marriage wasn't valid (sounds like it may not be) and she's unwilling to marry you with the conditions of being in it for life and agree to raising the child Catholic, you may not really have much of a choice.  You said she was willing to marry in the Church, but what does this actually mean to her beside the ceremony?  Would she be willing to commit to an indissoluble bond and raise your son a Catholic?  If not, then, there's no possibility for you to marry her anyway.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #23 on: January 15, 2024, 01:00:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 14, 2024, 09:34:54 PM
    Our relationship hasn't been great. And it was very bad the first year or two. We hardly knew each other when she got pregnant and I married her so she can stay in the country (she's from Southeast Asia). I was resentful and acted that way. The plan was if things don't work out, we can separate.

    This does not sound like it was a valid marriage, and then even if it was, you're in Pauline Privilege territory.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #24 on: January 15, 2024, 01:00:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 14, 2024, 09:34:54 PM
    We've been talking about getting her baptized and us marrying through the Church. She hasn't been enthusiastic about this but it seems like she'll go along.

    Based on this, it's unclear whether she has or can form the requisite intention to validly marry you.  Reluctantly willing to "go along" would give me some pause.

    I also question whether she should be baptized if she's not "enthusiastic" about it either.  This may just end up being a sacrilegious Baptism that she's doing just for social reasons, i.e. just to "go along".
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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #25 on: January 15, 2024, 01:08:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 14, 2024, 09:34:54 PM
    Hi, I've been lurking these forums for 6 months, coming back to the faith after 20 years.
    Is this your first marriage?
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #26 on: January 15, 2024, 04:56:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 15, 2024, 01:00:59 PM
    I also question whether she should be baptized if she's not "enthusiastic" about it either.  This may just end up being a sacrilegious Baptism that she's doing just for social reasons, i.e. just to "go along".
    I think this one should be an easier question. Even if they both wanted to normalize their situation in the Church, she doesn't have to be baptized first. There's no urgency on her conversion process.
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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #27 on: January 15, 2024, 05:14:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 15, 2024, 01:00:03 PM
    This does not sound like it was a valid marriage, and then even if it was, you're in Pauline Privilege territory.
    🎯
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #28 on: January 15, 2024, 05:17:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: MaterDominici on January 15, 2024, 04:56:57 PM
    I think this one should be an easier question. Even if they both wanted to normalize their situation in the Church, she doesn't have to be baptized first. There's no urgency on her conversion process.

    I understand that, but OP said that they were considering for her to be baptized and then for them to marry in the Catholic Church, so I was addressing both of his points.

    Quote
    We've been talking about getting her baptized and us marrying through the Church.

    ... after which OP stated she she was willing to "go along" with it.  I advised that just getting baptized to "go along" when she hadn't sincerely converted could be sacrilege against the Sacrament.
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    Re: Marry without love for son
    « Reply #29 on: January 15, 2024, 05:31:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 15, 2024, 01:00:03 PM
    This does not sound like it was a valid marriage, and then even if it was, you're in Pauline Privilege territory.
    Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 15, 2024, 05:14:01 PM
    🎯
    The "Pauline Privilege" would only apply if both were unbaptised at the time of the marriage. OP seems to indicate that he was baptised though: "coming back to the faith after 20 years.".

    Lack of a dispensation for "disparity of cult" and dispensation from "Canonical Form" would be the strongest reasons for a finding of nullity, based on the information given.
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