Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on July 25, 2015, 11:43:30 AM
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My H is primarily of a sanguine temperament: doesn't like rules, schedules ... puts an emphasis on fun and spontanaity .... this is an agressive / outward temperament, a people peson, he wants people to look at him, listen to him and follow him due to his charm. He doesn't want to command people, he wants to persuade them with his smile and his jokes.
I am a melancholic primarily. I also have enough choleric in me to be strong willed. I am a schedule person. I like rules. I like to make lists and plans.
I have had the worst time trying to follow a leader who doesn't go in a straight line, doesn't give directions, doesn't make clear requests. Another aspect of his temperament is that on the down side he has the potential of being morally flexible and also tolerates the errors of others to an extreme degree ...
I love him. But he drives me insane. If I were to do things the way he wants to ... I'd go to bed late, get up late, not have time for prayer, blow off appointments and play all day.
I just can't follow this!
Do any wives here have this experience? I've tried to learn from the saints .. but the type of husbands that makes saints of their wives seem to be cholerics: prone to anger, strong willed, demanding, confrontation "my way or the highway" types.
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Did he transform into a sanguine some years after you married him? You must secretly be attracted to a man with that temperament. Opposites attract?
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My husband has a temperament like this too. I think that obeying and submitting to one's husband will increase sanctity, no matter what temperament he has.
One temptation that I have with a husband like this is to be self-indulgent because my husband makes few demands on me. But, even if he does not give direct orders, I can still figure out what will please him and try to do it.
When I explain to my husband that I need routines and schedules to be able to function, he understands and does not expect me to do what is too difficult for me.
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We've been together since we were in our late teens. I knew he was outgoing, friendly, charming and funny. I hadn't heard of the temperments back then.
Yes, it is a case of opposites attracting.
He has many excellent qualities and I love him very much.
But we clashed often and badly around the issues of child rearing. Things like him wanting to go on trips away from the kids ... and us not having friends or family we could leave them with so we never did dates or trips. He resented that.
More importantly, we clashed about living the Faith and raising our kids. I had issues with movies and music, he thought I was overreacting. He would say things in front of the kids that were inappropriate or embarrassing (language or gossiping about his friends and their shameful behavior) etc.
He didn't take initiative on spiritual matters ... has taken umbrage to my seeming "obsession" with reading about the Faith and talking about it and being concerned about it.
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My husband is choleric:really-mad2:melancholic, so he's very much "the type that makes saints of their wives". Alas it hasn't happened yet!
Marriage ca be hard whatever our temperaments.
God's Will in all things!
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But we clashed often and badly around the issues of child rearing. Things like him wanting to go on trips away from the kids ... and us not having friends or family we could leave them with so we never did dates or trips. He resented that.
More importantly, we clashed about living the Faith and raising our kids. I had issues with movies and music, he thought I was overreacting. He would say things in front of the kids that were inappropriate or embarrassing (language or gossiping about his friends and their shameful behavior) etc.
He didn't take initiative on spiritual matters ... has taken umbrage to my seeming "obsession" with reading about the Faith and talking about it and being concerned about it.
I guess this could be a tendency of sanguines... but indirectly at most.
Not taking initiative could be blamed on temperament... but wanting to go on trips away from kids? I would think sanguines wouldn't mind having the kids along... "it's all good" is their motto.
Maybe he's more immature (including spiritually) than just a sanguine temperament. Maybe a sanguine temperament gone wild -- allowed to be superficial and carefree too much?
Good thing he wasn't a choleric -- you'd have fist-shaped holes in your walls and your life would have no stability. Whatever a person's temperament, it is still necessary to develop virtue.
Did you know that as you approach sanctity, the differences in the various "temperaments" disappear?
What temperament was Our Lord? All the best parts of each, and none of the weak points of any of them.
He was a leader, director, with plenty of zeal (choleric?), but a deep thinker and organized (melancholic) but He got along with thousands of people and seemed to be a "people person" (sanguine?) and He was always calm and regal in his bearing (phlegmatic?)
As you approach sanctity, the rough ways are made plain, the valleys are filled, and the mountains are brought low. The Cholerics develop perfect control over their temper, the melancholics come out from their constant introspection, sanguines stop being so superficial, and phlegmatics get moving.
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But we clashed often and badly around the issues of child rearing. Things like him wanting to go on trips away from the kids ... and us not having friends or family we could leave them with so we never did dates or trips. He resented that.
More importantly, we clashed about living the Faith and raising our kids. I had issues with movies and music, he thought I was overreacting. He would say things in front of the kids that were inappropriate or embarrassing (language or gossiping about his friends and their shameful behavior) etc.
He didn't take initiative on spiritual matters ... has taken umbrage to my seeming "obsession" with reading about the Faith and talking about it and being concerned about it.
This sounds just like my husband. Add that to the fact that he is not a Catholic, so this type of worldly behavior is expected.... but I would expect a Catholic to know and do better. Talk about crosses and uphill battles!
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No matter what temperament, religion, or level of maturity a husband is, his wife owes him obedience and respect. We are in a culture that fosters bad attitudes toward one's husband, so we wives really need to watch ourselves for this.
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Yes, there are temperment issues, maturity issues for both of us of course. We've come a long way since our early years and for that I am grateful.
Yes, I realize that about striving for perfection and how the temperaments become refined in the process.
I guess it's just the day to day reality of having to make decisions and be concerned with another person's choices and example in regard to raising children that made this so challenging and difficult for me. A more mature wife, a person better at controlling their own temperament, may have come up with better strategies to be both obedient, "fun" and yet also making it possible for the other person to take the situation more seirously.
We did take the kids on many trips ... business trips ... tag along kind of things.
The other trips .. there were a few that were company related in the early days where other colleagues were bringing their wives ... but they also were older than we were and had grown children.
Anyway, those days have passed. It's just that H can be foolish in his demeanor sometimes and blurt things out .. and he's not very discriminating in the types of friends he chooses and there just always seems to be something where I'm being forced to say "No" because of the way he sets things up ...and then I think that I'm being disobedient .. and it goes around and around.
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More importantly, we clashed about living the Faith and raising our kids. I had issues with movies and music, he thought I was overreacting. He would say things in front of the kids that were inappropriate or embarrassing (language or gossiping about his friends and their shameful behavior) etc.
He didn't take initiative on spiritual matters ... has taken umbrage to my seeming "obsession" with reading about the Faith and talking about it and being concerned about it.
This is a whole lot different than everyday matters that require obedience. What does your priest advise?
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More importantly, we clashed about living the Faith and raising our kids. I had issues with movies and music, he thought I was overreacting. He would say things in front of the kids that were inappropriate or embarrassing (language or gossiping about his friends and their shameful behavior) etc.
He didn't take initiative on spiritual matters ... has taken umbrage to my seeming "obsession" with reading about the Faith and talking about it and being concerned about it.
This is a whole lot different than everyday matters that require obedience. What does your priest advise?
It is not just everyday matters that require obedience. In general, a wife always has a duty to obey her husband unless it involves her committing a sin. I agree that the OP should ask a priest. Asking for advice on a forum tends to get responses from a bunch of people criticizing the husband and encouraging the wife to rebel against him, although a trad forum might not do it as much. Here is a blog post illustrating that problem: link (https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2014/06/11/a-husbands-plea-to-catholic-answers-forum-stop-sowing-discord-in-my-house/)
Just wanted to make a quick note, and maybe ask that everyone do some self reflecting. The person that mentioned that she “should play hard ball”, you about (and still might) cost us a family. The thing is, if anyone has to put up with unfair things in this marriage, it’s me. But I generally don’t complain, I don’t bother trying to change things. So long as everyone ELSE is content, comfortable, and safe, I don’t really mind. My place is to provide, and yet I constantly get stepped on. With this thread, I about had enough. The dangers of these “helpful” threads are that you don’t know all the circuмstances, but still you give advice that might be taken seriously. Would you trust a doctor to diagnose you with something over an email? Everyone wants to swoop in and “help” or “save” a needy stranger, but without knowing any of the details other than what was given.
All we can really talk about on a forum is general principles. We have one such principle stated by St. Peter: " In like manner also let wives be subject to their husbands: that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word, by the behaviour of the wives."
Also Casti Connubii
Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that "order of love," as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: "Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church."
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In general, a wife always has a duty to obey her husband unless it involves her committing a sin.
Yes, and to make sure I'm not misunderstood, that was the point of my comment. The particular issues I excerpted are certainly skating in that territory and she needs to be directed by a priest not, as you said, anonymous internet forum members.
"General principles" is an apt description of what our comments should entail.
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I agree with Jayne's comments.
I'm discerning my thoughts on this and realizing that my whole attitude is one of defense against being asked to do this or that, or being constantly challenged. But since I am in a constant battle mode, I have to ask "what came first?" Have I really tried a different way of communicating with my H ? Also, I've really developed a disagreeableness in general to most of H's ideas and plans due to past experience with things going wrong in one way or another. But that's not a sin issue.
So, my take on this brings it back to me and what I've done and not done and how I've become rigid in dealing with H due to past disappointments and disagreements.
I guess I've just got a rebellious spirit. Both because of my temperament and because of experience with H and mistakes being made. A lack of trust has developed over the years and I haven't wanted to listen to him about anything. And as you can imagine, it's caused a lot of problems.
I have to find a better way of being in relationship with him.
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I agree with Jayne's comments.
I'm discerning my thoughts on this and realizing that my whole attitude is one of defense against being asked to do this or that, or being constantly challenged. But since I am in a constant battle mode, I have to ask "what came first?" Have I really tried a different way of communicating with my H ? Also, I've really developed a disagreeableness in general to most of H's ideas and plans due to past experience with things going wrong in one way or another. But that's not a sin issue.
So, my take on this brings it back to me and what I've done and not done and how I've become rigid in dealing with H due to past disappointments and disagreements.
I guess I've just got a rebellious spirit. Both because of my temperament and because of experience with H and mistakes being made. A lack of trust has developed over the years and I haven't wanted to listen to him about anything. And as you can imagine, it's caused a lot of problems.
I have to find a better way of being in relationship with him.
When I have had insights like this about my marriage, I have apologized to my husband and gone to Confession.
I want to clarify that I do not think that you sound like one of those women who writes to a forum to have her rebellion confirmed. It's just that I have seen so many that this is what I think of when I see someone ask for advice.
Prayers for you.
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Leave sadness to those in the world. We who work for God should be lighthearted.
St. Leonard of Port Maurice
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OP here.
Father Chad Ripperger sermon on "Problem with Self" -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3_M-ychkTA&list=PLqCg6VrZgYiSkP1xGtL8OXr0VGif9VPP7&index=129
This is my problem. I haven't wanted to obey H because he doesn't do things the way I think he should. He focuses on outward things. He's worldly. He doesn't take command of situations.
But I since I know that God has me where He intends for me to be, I've had to look further and now I'm realizing that it would have been "easier" for me to follow a H that was strong and decisive and commanding, because the repercussions of not following would be apparent to all. My H on the other hand, leaves a lot up to me. He doesn't insist. He doesn't require. His way of being forces me to realize that I have to swallow a lot of pride about how things "should" be done and do them the way he wants to.
For example: I 'have' to have time in the morning to read and pray and exercise. If I don't do this, well there are multiple things that "go wrong" with me if I can't get this accomplished. But H stays in bed several hours past the time that I do and if he had his druthers, I'd stay in bed that late as well.
I know from experience that my H is one of those "if you give an inch, they'll take a mile" types. So I am in a constant state of vigilance to prevent him from requesting more of me than I am willing to give.
I know the "answer" is to just do what I know he wants. But it's a huge conflict with me, and I guess Fr. Ripperger would say it's my selfishness that's keeping me from "obeying" my H in this and other areas.
I guess my big fear is that if I started to obey H in all areas, our lives would be chaotic and in shambles, if I wasn't keeping everything in order. Maybe H would quit his job and sit around all day picking his guitar and taking naps and hanging out with his friends while the bills went unpaid!
I mean, it's that kind of underlying fear that I think drives all this. And I know this is just my side of things. But I've known my H for 3 decades and I know the things he thinks and values and I know that he's one of those types that would just love to invent something that would make him a millionaire so he'd never have to work again .. or to win the lottery ...
and that scares me.
So this is just an update ... the verdict: it's me, not him. It's pride and selfishness and fear all rolled up in one.
Thanks again for your replies.
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You're very endearing in your sincere desire to do God's will OP.
I guess my big fear is that if I started to obey H in all areas, our lives would be chaotic and in shambles, if I wasn't keeping everything in order.
But isn't order of God and chaos of the devil? Where's the line when a wife keeps the home in order and it conflicts with obedience to her husband? I was taught this is of the utmost importance so that husband and children have an overall peaceful, clean, well run environment even if one of them personally struggles with self discipline. The home is sacrosanct isn't it? Wouldn't her duty be to helping her H best by keeping the home peaceful and orderly? If the H is modernist minded and she follows him into his lazy tendencies it just doesn't make good Catholic sense. My aunt was a model traditional Catholic woman married to a man like that. She was very kind & very disciplined. I learned a lot from her. She never treated my rather lazy pie in the sky dreaming uncle with disrespect, but her home was like a well oiled machine and it was a very happy place to visit. He was happy to let her carry the water, and was content from what I learned as an adult. Also my cousins thrived and are still good Catholics. Maybe that example is just anecdotal but the consequences of surrendering other important duties to indulge a person with little discipline just isn't logical.
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One thing that really resounded with me, is something (ironically) that my husband told me before we got married, after a meeting with our priest. He said something along the lines of this, "I know that I won't be perfect, that I will mess up and I will make many wrong decisions, and I realize that it will be difficult for you to follow and obey me at times. But it times like those, please remember that ultimately, it's God that you must place your trust in, not me. God made an order in the family- in times that I am being bad or unreasonable, think of yourself as especially obeying God and hopefully that will make it easier for you."
Basically what he was saying is that, for me to obey him even when he's wrong or unreasonable, while not ideal, is still better than stepping outside of the natural order and rebelling against him. He didn't say this to be mean or domineering, but in humility, as he knew that there were going to be times that he was wrong, and he wanted to have the bases covered for those times. I agree with him that the lesser of the two evils is to deal with him in obedience and humility all the time, as long as it doesn't jeopardize anyone's soul. To rebel against him, or to argue, be snappy, or to nag incessantly would produce a far more bleak outcome. It's the big picture.
I think that this advice would be much more difficult for you than for me, as my husband (praise be to God) is a strong, devout Catholic who tries his best to do God's will every day. I am SO incredibly thankful for him!
In like manner, I as a wife will mess up and do things that I'm not suppose to, and in times that I am difficult or unreasonable, he is better off to do as Sacred Scripture tells us, and that is to be patient, kind and loving with me. For this will win me over quickly, and produce the outcome he wishes.
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A few of the posts here are confusing me.
Aren't we using two different meanings when referring to "following"?
There's being obedient -- doing as asked and not doing that which we've been asked not to do.
Then there's trying to be some sort of mirror. Something like, "he's a real slob and seems to not be bothered by it, so I should be a slob too."
The second sounds crazy to me, but seems to be what the OP is suggesting??
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The second sounds crazy to me, but seems to be what the OP is suggesting??
This is what I inferred. One example, she mentioned a few times that he likes to stay in bed late but she must attend to duties and rises earlier. He would prefer she laze about with him. The OP to her credit is aware that she is the one who brings order to the home and he is chaotic.
A wife provides an orderly home sometimes with the challenge of a disorderly husband but to participate in his lack of discipline in the name of obedience just seems totally illogical. At this point it may be better to speak to a good priest about this, hopefully one who knows them both.
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I'm sorry! OP here. I've apparently made a mess of things here trying to describe my selfish anxieties.
I keep a nice, clean house. My H is less tidy than I am but we work together well and I just straighten and neaten up around him. He's very good in that he doesn't leave towels or clothes on the floor and ultimately he does very well in that area.
He's not really lazy. I get up before 5am and he gets up between 7:30 and 8:00 depending on whether he's home working or going on a trip. He travels for work 3-4 days each week. I can't blame him for not getting up earlier than that. And it doesn't bother me. It's just that I'm out of bed several hours before he is and I know that he'd prefer I not be so rigid about it all the time.
The fact is, I have not been a good, supportive helpful wife to my H. I have fought him tooth and nail over everything over the years. I have a habit of being contrary and disagreeable. I have a habit of correcting and criticizing. So when it came to raising the children, you can imagine the conflicts arising from that foundation.
What Jayne said earlier is true. I shouldn't have started this thread. It was supposed to be, "How does a wife follow the type of 'leadership' of a sanguine husband..."
Just asking the question has caused me to really think about it and allowed me to be more honest with myself. I wasn't beeing truthful and that's why my posts weren't making sense.
If I was doing my part, he'd be doing a lot better and we'd be working together as a team.
I'm sorry for the confusion. I will withdraw now.