Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on February 22, 2016, 09:12:59 AM
-
Everyone would love to have a happy marriage. Unfortunately human nature doesn't always work that way. what recourse does a wife have if unfortunately her husband starts becoming abusive both physically and mentally towards her? I find it cruel if she is forced to separate without remarriage. What if after serious reflection she realizes that her former boyfriend has pity for her and the woman wants to marry him instead.
This is a question of apologetics
-
The woman must remain faithful to her marriage vows and perform all her duties of state to her children and household. She must pray for her husband to repent of his evil ways and be willing to accept him back into the household once he repents. She must continue to love her husband and work towards reconciling with him. She must have NOTHING to do with any other men except family. If she's speaking to an ex boyfriend she is already an adultress which is worse than being abusive. She needs to repent of her sins of adultery. Facebook and email friendships are adultery as well.
Many examples of good Catholics and even some saints who lived apart from their husband and remained faithful. Sorry but this is how it is. No exceptions.
-
The woman must remain faithful to her marriage vows and perform all her duties of state to her children and household. She must pray for her husband to repent of his evil ways and be willing to accept him back into the household once he repents. She must continue to love her husband and work towards reconciling with him. She must have NOTHING to do with any other men except family. If she's speaking to an ex boyfriend she is already an adultress which is worse than being abusive. She needs to repent of her sins of adultery. Facebook and email friendships are adultery as well.
Many examples of good Catholics and even some saints who lived apart from their husband and remained faithful. Sorry but this is how it is. No exceptions.
OP here.
It is cruel to deny such a woman a better life. Why so cruel? Why cant there be remarriage if this issue is not resolved no matter what?
-
The woman must remain faithful to her marriage vows and perform all her duties of state to her children and household. She must pray for her husband to repent of his evil ways and be willing to accept him back into the household once he repents. She must continue to love her husband and work towards reconciling with him. She must have NOTHING to do with any other men except family. If she's speaking to an ex boyfriend she is already an adultress which is worse than being abusive. She needs to repent of her sins of adultery. Facebook and email friendships are adultery as well.
Many examples of good Catholics and even some saints who lived apart from their husband and remained faithful. Sorry but this is how it is. No exceptions.
OP here.
It is cruel to deny such a woman a better life. Why so cruel? Why cant there be remarriage if this issue is not resolved no matter what?
Does the woman not understand the Catholic teaching on marriage? It's for LIFE; better or worse. Hell for all eternity is cruel which is the destination for adultresses. Adultery is not a better life than chastity.
-
The boyfriend will never be her true husband. Before God's eyes, the husband will always remain her true and only husband no matter what.
Catholics do not divorce nor they re-marry so they can have a new "chance" to be happy. That is worldly, secular thinking; not Catholic. As Catholics we must, as Christ commands, take up our crosses (in this case, an unfortunate marriage) and follow Him unconditionally.
She is allowed to physically separate from her husband if she is being physically or mentally abused and work towards a reconciliation, if that is possible. If not possible, then she must live a chaste and virtuous life apart from the husband, doing God's will. The purpose of marriage is the procreation and upbringing of children, not finding "happiness" on earth. That is a silly utopia.
Separation does not mean she is free to re-marry, unless she becomes a widow. Only then, she could re-marry. That is not cruel. Catholics are concerned with Heaven, where true life is found. This earthly exile is only temporary and we need to learn how to suffer meritoriously.
The war on marriage and the Traditional family really began the day the evil of Divorce was made legal. It should be reverted. Catholics are married for life, for better or worse.
-
I should probably add here to please do not do anything until you actually consult your personal marriage situation with a Traditional Catholic priest face to face.
You may receive conflicting advice on the internet and act foolishly, especially under the influence of disordered passions.
-
We (Traditional) Catholics need to put a guard on our hearts, and not let worldly thinking in. You think watching all that TV and movies isn't having an effect on you? Or working with so many non-Catholics? Or having so many non-Catholic friends?
Well, I'll tell you that the OP is doing *something* wrong, since he has absorbed the worldly obsession with happiness, "God's law be ______". That is the polar opposite of the Catholic attitude and worldview. Catholics are about doing God's will FIRST, achieving more and more perfect conformity with God's holy will, and finding happiness in the peace of a soul united to God. In particular, we should be united to Jesus Christ, who suffered first and led the way to Calvary which we must follow.
Read the lives of the saints, and stop imbibing so much worldly influence. Perhaps it would be a good Lenten resolution. You will start to see things in a more Catholic way.
By the way, there's nothing "cruel", with insisting that a woman be faithful to her end of the marriage vows, which are FOR LIFE. No one forced her to marry that abusive husband. Whether or not she had a clue that he would turn out to be an abuser, At worst, her situation is the unforeseen (and unfortunate) consequences of her own actions.
Besides being non-Catholic, it's quite infantile to want to escape from the consequences of our own decisions, just because we don't like those consequences. Strictly speaking, it's childish to want to escape all suffering. But we are all guilty of this to some degree. Nevertheless, we should remember that Catholics aren't living for this world alone.
Now there are many things SHE could have done herself to end up with that abusive husband situation. Not necessarily, but more times than not there was SOME clue during courtship that this man had a problem with anger, mortification, self-control, etc. And in many other cases, she did something to cause the marital problems.
Perhaps she:
* failed to seriously evaluate her husband-to-be during the courtship period -- did she really observe sufficient prayer life, mortification and self-control in her husband, but he became a wife-beater out of the blue? Highly doubtful.
* Help make him the current wife-beating husband that he is, by withholding the marriage debt, nagging him, trying to change/discipline him, etc.
* allowed herself to express feminism in her daily life, beliefs and actions and failed to work constantly to expunge all feminism from herself
* tried to fight her husband and oppose his leadership head-on, wanting to be the de-facto head of the household. This alone would introduce TONS of disorder into a marriage.
* ignored all the warning signs before marriage
* ignored the warnings of her parents, family, friends
* was stubborn to get this guy to make her friends jealous
* ignored or "friend zoned" lots of nerdy or nice guys in favor of bad boy/athletic types pumping with testosterone.
* failed to pray for/with her husband and try to win him over, make him more holy, etc.
And she must not have been honestly looking at the man's relationship with his mother, etc. She must have been focused on having fun during the "dating" experience rather than seriously evaluating him as a life partner.
But even if she couldn't have done ANYTHING BETTER (which is not probable), it's still a cross that God is asking her to carry. That is still the Catholic outlook for this situation.
She should be glad that the Church will let her live separately from her abusive husband (whom she chose to marry with her own free will "for better or worse") and not look a gift horse in the mouth by complaining that she can't get married again.
Women, TRY to turn off your emotions as you court your future husband. I know it's difficult for both men and women to be objective when infatuation is in full effect, but marriage is serious business and you want to give yourself every chance.
-
I personally know an excellent trad mother of 9 who had to flee an abusive trad husband who tried to gouge his wife's eyes just weeks before she was due her baby. But it must have been her fault. Are trad men that arrogant and blinkered when it comes to sinful men.
Just disgusted now and for the record the op needs to stop watching silly soaps on tv
You're lumping together two completely different situations.
Nine children is a long time for a spouse to gradually change. In that situation, she might have had no warning signs during their courtship and still find herself in a terrible situation and forced to accept the cross of parenting her 9 children alone.
But, the OP speaks of a "former boyfriend" as if pre-marriage is relatively recent history. A man doesn't turn from gentleman to wife beater overnight, just as I'm sure your acquaintance's husband didn't flip overnight.
-
And did the excellent trad mother of 9 look up a "former boyfriend". I think not.
-
Nine children is a long time for a spouse to gradually change. In that situation, she might have had no warning signs during their courtship and still find herself in a terrible situation and forced to accept the cross of parenting her 9 children alone.
But, the OP speaks of a "former boyfriend" as if pre-marriage is relatively recent history. A man doesn't turn from gentleman to wife beater overnight, just as I'm sure your acquaintance's husband didn't flip overnight.
You're right, there's actually a principle in Moral Theology that no one becomes "the worst" overnight.
It is morally impossible for a man who habitually avoids mortal sin (especially drunkenness, fornication, and self-abuse), who attends Mass every Sunday, does spiritual reading, abstains from meat every Friday, says the daily Rosary, etc. to wake up one morning (with no warning to anyone) and start beating his wife. It simply doesn't happen. Self-control isn't gained (or lost) overnight.
And yes, the bit about "former boyfriend" does suggest the marriage was recent. Heck, if they'd been married for even 10 years it would be unlikely that the "former boyfriend" would still be available for a new romance. Much less 15 or 20 years -- he'd be married, moved to a different state, etc.
Incidentally, I modified my post (above) to be a bit more clear.
-
Is there a history of substance abuse or mental illness in his family? Were both committed Catholics prior to courtship? Did they receive pre-marital counseling from a solid traditional priest? Probably not? This marriage was based on infatuation that invariably wore off.
An acquaintance of mine married into a family wherein mental illness ran rampant. She knew this and took the risk. After baby #4, Dad was laid off from his job, fell into a deep depression and began self-medicating with alcohol. It wasn't long before he added amphetamines to his diet. He found another job, but was fired after failing the company's drug test. My friend worked at a bank while carrying babies 5 and 6. Dad went through many part-time, dead-end jobs. Pregnancy #7 kept Mom at home on partial bed rest. Sometimes Dad came at night, sometimes he didn't. They were forced onto welfare. Finally, Dad was arrested and sent to a psychiatric facility. He'd been found running around without clothes, screaming obscenities outside a mall. Eventually, he was diagnosed with a severe form of schizophrenia, the same kind that afflicted his mother, older brother, grandmother, several cousins.
The house was sold and Mom, now on disability, and children moved into a decrepit former motel maintained by the county for homeless. Over the years, the Catholic faith was abandoned.
Moral of the story? Ladies, if you're ready to "date," understand that your girlhood is over. Be mature women. Use your brain as well as your heart. Do your research before approaching the altar. The last I heard of this former family, all but one of the children were "shacked-up," with children of their own, all but one on welfare.
From working class to trailer trash in one generation!
In the words of a wise friend, "Puppy love leads to a dog's life."
-
Everyone would love to have a happy marriage. Unfortunately human nature doesn't always work that way. what recourse does a wife have if unfortunately her husband starts becoming abusive both physically and mentally towards her? I find it cruel if she is forced to separate without remarriage. What if after serious reflection she realizes that her former boyfriend has pity for her and the woman wants to marry him instead.
This is a question of apologetics
I think that we must take the example of the saints as our light and guidance...
Your story reminds me of the life of Saint Rita...
As soon as they were married, her husband became awful towards her. However, she never left him. She most humbly submitted to his cruel treatment, and served him faithfully. Eventually God rewarded her devotion and virtuousness by having him become a better man.
It is certainly not easy to live with an abusive husband, but you may be the one chance of him saving his soul...
Perhaps, the best thing though would be to ask the advice of a priest.
You will be in my prayers...
-
Is there a history of substance abuse or mental illness in his family? Were both committed Catholics prior to courtship? Did they receive pre-marital counseling from a solid traditional priest? Probably not? This marriage was based on infatuation that invariably wore off.
An acquaintance of mine married into a family wherein mental illness ran rampant. She knew this and took the risk. After baby #4, Dad was laid off from his job, fell into a deep depression and began self-medicating with alcohol. It wasn't long before he added amphetamines to his diet. He found another job, but was fired after failing the company's drug test. My friend worked at a bank while carrying babies 5 and 6. Dad went through many part-time, dead-end jobs. Pregnancy #7 kept Mom at home on partial bed rest. Sometimes Dad came at night, sometimes he didn't. They were forced onto welfare. Finally, Dad was arrested and sent to a psychiatric facility. He'd been found running around without clothes, screaming obscenities outside a mall. Eventually, he was diagnosed with a severe form of schizophrenia, the same kind that afflicted his mother, older brother, grandmother, several cousins.
The house was sold and Mom, now on disability, and children moved into a decrepit former motel maintained by the county for homeless. Over the years, the Catholic faith was abandoned.
Moral of the story? Ladies, if you're ready to "date," understand that your girlhood is over. Be mature women. Use your brain as well as your heart. Do your research before approaching the altar. The last I heard of this former family, all but one of the children were "shacked-up," with children of their own, all but one on welfare.
From working class to trailer trash in one generation!
In the words of a wise friend, "Puppy love leads to a dog's life."
As tragic and sad as this story is (and it is about REAL HUMAN BEINGS which need our prayers), I must say that I love people sharing stories like this, since it gives hope that maybe some women out there will be a bit more careful about their own courtship. Knowledge is power, and the truth is always your friend. True anecdotes like this can't be brushed off; they really happened! And why couldn't you be next? Because you're special?
I don't agree that mental illness is hereditary, strictly speaking. Not saying it can't be environmental (from upbringing, or learned rather than born), but I don't think it's genetic.
These warnings and tales of shipwreck are important, to counter those rose-colored glasses that everyone puts on when they're courting. Virtually all couples are in a state of infatuation before they marry; it's how God designed us so we would go ahead and marry and continue the human race. If we didn't have a certain amount of "rational impairment" during the courting process, I don't think anyone would get married.
-
You married for "better or worse". If it's now worse, it doesn't mean it will always be. You're job is to pray and "sanctify the unbelieving (or sinful) spouse" as said St Paul. Prayer can solve anything.
-
I think we need to differentiate between separating but remaining faithful and divorcing and remarrying.
If a spouse is bringing pornography, hookers, dope, or crime into the home you have a moral duty to throw them out or move yourself out. Period. Don't be stupid. Or they are in an affair and won't stop. Yes you must take drastic steps to get them to stop.
But growing apart or falling out of love or realizing you are still in love with someone from your past....nope, sorry. You have to cohabitate with your spouse and make do somehow. Try a devotion to the Blessed Virgin to ease your sorrows.
Only the OP knows why her husband beats her. If she's innocent of wrongdoing then she needs to leave until it's safe to return. If he slapped her and called her bad names because she's committing adultery by having an "emotional affair" then she's culpable.
If my spouse was having online or IRL romances with an ex and refused to quit I'd have no problem throwing their bum to the curb. Sometimes you have to wake up your spouse. Continuing to feed them cake when they are being naughty isn't going to bring them to repentance. I've seen a man lose absolutely everything (wife, kids, home, career, dignity, his Faith) just for some "strange". We are talking about a "traditional" Catholic man who threw everything important away for the excitement of variety.
If you have to civil divorce for custody or financial rights you have no choice but to remain solitary and celibate. That means no dating, opposite sex friendships, Facebook exchanges, getting in touch.....you know what I mean. And you have to work towards reconcilation after you both repent.
Separation needs to be under the guidance of a good priest.
-
I think we need to differentiate between separating but remaining faithful and divorcing and remarrying.
If a spouse is bringing pornography, hookers, dope, or crime into the home you have a moral duty to throw them out or move yourself out. Period. Don't be stupid. Or they are in an affair and won't stop. Yes you must take drastic steps to get them to stop.
But growing apart or falling out of love or realizing you are still in love with someone from your past....nope, sorry. You have to cohabitate with your spouse and make do somehow. Try a devotion to the Blessed Virgin to ease your sorrows.
Only the OP knows why her husband beats her. If she's innocent of wrongdoing then she needs to leave until it's safe to return. If he slapped her and called her bad names because she's committing adultery by having an "emotional affair" then she's culpable.
If my spouse was having online or IRL romances with an ex and refused to quit I'd have no problem throwing their bum to the curb. Sometimes you have to wake up your spouse. Continuing to feed them cake when they are being naughty isn't going to bring them to repentance. I've seen a man lose absolutely everything (wife, kids, home, career, dignity, his Faith) just for some "strange". We are talking about a "traditional" Catholic man who threw everything important away for the excitement of variety.
If you have to civil divorce for custody or financial rights you have no choice but to remain solitary and celibate. That means no dating, opposite sex friendships, Facebook exchanges, getting in touch.....you know what I mean. And you have to work towards reconcilation after you both repent.
Separation needs to be under the guidance of a good priest.
OP here.
many people would say that staying with an abusive spouse is insanity. If the wife has an ex boyfriend who promises to cherish her and respect her unlike the present husband why should they be like that? How does society benefit with people being unhappily married?
-
Almost every response to the original question has said that if a person is being abused and they and their children are in danger, separation is the answer. Dating and "remarriage" is not.
How this benefits society is by holding to a higher purpose, self sacrifice makes strong families, good children and hope for better things. Throwing people away is never the answer.
Breaking a vow you made to God is not a path to "happiness." And "happiness" in these cases is always about physical and emotional pleasures that feed the human ego, not the greater good.
-
OP here.
many people would say that staying with an abusive spouse is insanity. If the wife has an ex boyfriend who promises to cherish her and respect her unlike the present husband why should they be like that? How does society benefit with people being unhappily married?
So you are the ex-boyfriend?
-
OP here.
many people would say that staying with an abusive spouse is insanity. If the wife has an ex boyfriend who promises to cherish her and respect her unlike the present husband why should they be like that? How does society benefit with people being unhappily married?
1. The ex-boyfriend "promising to cherish her and respect her" remains to be seen or proven. The whole thing could be, and likely is, an illusion! If he was so great, why didn't she marry him to begin with? If she had, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
2. You're criticizing God and His laws, opposing the "wisdom" (foolishness) of the Modern World to God's infinite wisdom. You realize that, right?
3. You're probably wrong about your outlook though. God is much smarter than you and He knows best. He made man from the slime of the earth, and He wrote the instruction manual.
4. I also suspect you might be the ex-boyfriend, which is why you're biased in this case. How else would you know the ex-boyfriend's intentions and feelings? And if you're NOT the ex-boyfriend (but rather the woman tempted to divorce her true husband and re-marry this ex-boyfriend), you're just taking HIS word for it. He might be lying (or making emotion-fueled promises that he won't or can't keep) just so he can get you into bed with him.
Long story short, a wise and smart Catholic with side with God in this matter. Forget the modern world and its ways!
-
OP here.
many people would say that staying with an abusive spouse is insanity. If the wife has an ex boyfriend who promises to cherish her and respect her unlike the present husband why should they be like that? How does society benefit with people being unhappily married?
1. The ex-boyfriend "promising to cherish her and respect her" remains to be seen or proven. The whole thing could be, and likely is, an illusion! If he was so great, why didn't she marry him to begin with? If she had, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
2. You're criticizing God and His laws, opposing the "wisdom" (foolishness) of the Modern World to God's infinite wisdom. You realize that, right?
3. You're probably wrong about your outlook though. God is much smarter than you and He knows best. He made man from the slime of the earth, and He wrote the instruction manual.
4. I also suspect you might be the ex-boyfriend, which is why you're biased in this case. How else would you know the ex-boyfriend's intentions and feelings? And if you're NOT the ex-boyfriend (but rather the woman tempted to divorce her true husband and re-marry this ex-boyfriend), you're just taking HIS word for it. He might be lying (or making emotion-fueled promises that he won't or can't keep) just so he can get you into bed with him.
Long story short, a wise and smart Catholic with side with God in this matter. Forget the modern world and its ways!
OP here.
I am not boyfriend or wife. I created this thread to be a devil's advocate for me to know how to argue the Catholic position. in the OP I said it was apologetical. These moral issues mean that Catholics must answer objections. This is hypothetical
-
OP here.
many people would say that staying with an abusive spouse is insanity. If the wife has an ex boyfriend who promises to cherish her and respect her unlike the present husband why should they be like that? How does society benefit with people being unhappily married?
It is not required to stay with an abusive spouse. However, saying that people can can divorce and remarry whenever they are not happy led to the current situation of a 50% divorce rate. This situation means that millions of children suffer the pain of growing up in a broken family. Millions of children are facing the increase risk of problems associated with being fatherless - crime, drug abuse, teen pregnancy, etc.
Society benefits when divorce is not allowed because it means that there are more stable homes for children to grow up in. It does far less harm to a child to have unhappy parents than to have divorced parents. Divorce is devastating to children. Strong families are the basis good spiritual and emotional development. That is what is lost when people make a god of "being happy" rather than follow the commands of the true God.
It does not matter if this particular couple does not have children. Every divorce is an attack on marriage. Every attempt to justify divorce is an attack on marriage. And marriage is for creating a nurturing environment for children. When you destroy marriage, you destroy children and when you destroy children, you destroy society.
-
There really is no "apologetic" here.
Either one believes and submits to the laws of God as clarified by the teaching of the Catholic Church or one does not. If one does not, then there can be no convincing them. It's really that simple. So this thread is a utter waste of time.
-
FYI Matthew neither one of us were Catholic but my husband did change overnight around the delivery time of our first child.
-
I think we need to differentiate between separating but remaining faithful and divorcing and remarrying.
If a spouse is bringing pornography, hookers, dope, or crime into the home you have a moral duty to throw them out or move yourself out. Period. Don't be stupid. Or they are in an affair and won't stop. Yes you must take drastic steps to get them to stop.
But growing apart or falling out of love or realizing you are still in love with someone from your past....nope, sorry. You have to cohabitate with your spouse and make do somehow. Try a devotion to the Blessed Virgin to ease your sorrows.
Only the OP knows why her husband beats her. If she's innocent of wrongdoing then she needs to leave until it's safe to return. If he slapped her and called her bad names because she's committing adultery by having an "emotional affair" then she's culpable.
If my spouse was having online or IRL romances with an ex and refused to quit I'd have no problem throwing their bum to the curb. Sometimes you have to wake up your spouse. Continuing to feed them cake when they are being naughty isn't going to bring them to repentance. I've seen a man lose absolutely everything (wife, kids, home, career, dignity, his Faith) just for some "strange". We are talking about a "traditional" Catholic man who threw everything important away for the excitement of variety.
If you have to civil divorce for custody or financial rights you have no choice but to remain solitary and celibate. That means no dating, opposite sex friendships, Facebook exchanges, getting in touch.....you know what I mean. And you have to work towards reconcilation after you both repent.
Separation needs to be under the guidance of a good priest.
OP here.
many people would say that staying with an abusive spouse is insanity. If the wife has an ex boyfriend who promises to cherish her and respect her unlike the present husband why should they be like that? How does society benefit with people being unhappily married?
If the wife has a an ex boyfriend who is promising this, she should cut off all contact with him.
I am calling troll here with the "how does society benefit" question.
-
I have a good husband. Thank you, God.