Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Author Topic: Marriage debt  (Read 3234 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Anonymous

  • Guest
Re: Marriage debt
« Reply #90 on: September 15, 2018, 11:42:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The quieting of concupiscence (concupiscentiæ sedatio, as Pope Pius XI descriptively calls it in Casti Connubii) is a secondary end of marriage.If that's their goal, then why marry? Such an end can be achieved safer and more readily in the religious than the married state.
    The primary end of marriage is the procreation and education of children, not the sanctification of the spouses.
    The Church always taught from the time of Christ that the primary purpose of the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony is to sanctify our lives and to raise our children in the Holy Faith so that they become saints.
    .
    Lust should have no part in our Christian lives, for one can lust within marriage and be damned.
    .
    Remember the Apostles asked Christ about marriage, and when Christ responded, then they said, "Then who can get married."

    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #91 on: September 16, 2018, 12:30:35 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The quieting of concupiscence (concupiscentiæ sedatio, as Pope Pius XI descriptively calls it in Casti Connubii) is a secondary end of marriage.If that's their goal, then why marry? Such an end can be achieved safer and more readily in the religious than the married state.
    The primary end of marriage is the procreation and education of children, not the sanctification of the spouses.
    You're right.


    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #92 on: September 16, 2018, 12:31:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Church always taught from the time of Christ that the primary purpose of the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony is to sanctify our lives.
    You're wrong. 

    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #93 on: September 16, 2018, 12:38:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You're wrong.
    How so?
    Disregard the latest papal encyclicals because Pius XII was wrong in so many ways. Papal encyclicals are not infallible.

    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #94 on: September 16, 2018, 11:01:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Cafeteria Catholicism:  The Church through the Vicar of Christ teaches, you decide.  


    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #95 on: September 16, 2018, 11:47:41 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Church always taught from the time of Christ that the primary purpose of the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony is to sanctify our lives and to raise our children in the Holy Faith so that they become saints.
    .
    Lust should have no part in our Christian lives, for one can lust within marriage and be damned.
    .
    Remember the Apostles asked Christ about marriage, and when Christ responded, then they said, "Then who can get married."
    To raise your children through the Holy Faith you must first have children, which the Church teaches you must only do through marriage. Ergo the primary purpose of marriage is procreation. The primary purpose of Matrimony is not sanctification as that may be achieved through other means, in fact the Church teaches that perpetual virginity is more holy than Matrimony. What Matrimony does is sanctify relations between the couple, turning a sinful act into an unsinful one.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15044
    • Reputation: +7962/-2494
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #96 on: September 16, 2018, 02:49:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Lust should have no part in our Christian lives, for one can lust within marriage and be damned.

    What are you talking about?  Are you equating sexual desire for your spouse as sinful lust?  I swear this must be that Heimaten (sp?) guy Matthew banned for similar Puritanism some time back.  There's no degree of sexual desire for your spouse that is a mortal sin ... so long as it doesn't entail a desire to perform sinful activities.  If extremely excessive, it can be a venial sin, but in most cases rarely rises about the level of being an "imperfection".

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15044
    • Reputation: +7962/-2494
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #97 on: September 16, 2018, 02:52:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • How so?
    Disregard the latest papal encyclicals because Pius XII was wrong in so many ways. Papal encyclicals are not infallible.

    I disregard none of Pius XII's encyclicals (official teaching to the Universal Church) ... merely his allocation (long speech) to a group of midwives.  Why?  Because it contradicts the teaching of his predecessor Pius XI (in an encyclical).

    In any case, this clown has refused to answer the question of whether he's R&R or a sedevacantist.  If you're R&R, you have disregarded all the V2 papal claimants, so it seems that you pick and choose which popes you want to follow.  If you're sedevacantist, then you're clearly one of these absolutely infallibilists who make a mockery of infallibility by holding that the pope is infallible every time he opens his mouth.


    Offline Geremia

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2739
    • Reputation: +759/-151
    • Gender: Male
      • St. Isidore e-book library
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #98 on: September 16, 2018, 03:50:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Church always taught from the time of Christ that the primary purpose of the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony is to sanctify our lives
    Can you quote where the Church has taught this is marriage's primary purpose?

    St. Thomas ranks Baptism as the most important sacrament. He ranks Matrimony last "because it has less participation in the nature of the spiritual life, to which the sacraments are ordained".

    Thus, married Catholics are more sanctified by the top 5 sacraments (esp. Baptism and Eucharist) than by marriage.

    (To enter marriage with the primary and sole purpose of sanctifying oneself and not to have children would render the marriage invalid.)

    The post-Vatican II teachings that make mutual love of the spouses the primary end of marriage tend to glorify the sanctifying aspect of marriage to such an extent that they degrade the necessity of the other sacraments (which Paul VI bastardized anyways with his Modernist Novus Ordo new-sacraments). Sanctify-yourself-with-more-sex-and-fewer-sacraments is certainly more appealing to "modern man" than the Eucharist or Penance, so it makes sense why the cult of man Novus Ordo sect promotes abominations like "Theology of the Body".

    and to raise our children in the Holy Faith so that they become saints.
    Yes, that's marriage's primary end.

    Lust should have no part in our Christian lives, for one can lust within marriage and be damned.
    Sure, as in contraception, sodomitical acts, etc., but one can use the evil of concupiscence for a good purpose in marriage:
    Contra Iulianum 5.60:
    Quote from: St. Augustine
    Ego enim dico, uti libidine non semper esse peccatum; quia malo bene uti non est peccatum.
    I hold that to use lust [libidine] is not always a sin, because to use evil well is not a sin.
    (For more quotes along these lines, see §2. "Saint Augustine and 'Putting Bad to Good Use'" of this article)
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre

    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #99 on: September 16, 2018, 04:17:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I disregard none of Pius XII's encyclicals (official teaching to the Universal Church) ... merely his allocation (long speech) to a group of midwives.  Why?  Because it contradicts the teaching of his predecessor Pius XI (in an encyclical).

    In any case, this clown has refused to answer the question of whether he's R&R or a sedevacantist.  If you're R&R, you have disregarded all the V2 papal claimants, so it seems that you pick and choose which popes you want to follow.  If you're sedevacantist, then you're clearly one of these absolutely infallibilists who make a mockery of infallibility by holding that the pope is infallible every time he opens his mouth.
    It only contradicts it according to your own fallible judgement.  The reality is that there is no contradiction.

    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #100 on: September 16, 2018, 05:57:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Can you quote where the Church has taught this is marriage's primary purpose?

    St. Thomas ranks Baptism as the most important sacrament. He ranks Matrimony last "because it has less participation in the nature of the spiritual life, to which the sacraments are ordained".

    Thus, married Catholics are more sanctified by the top 5 sacraments (esp. Baptism and Eucharist) than by marriage.

    (To enter marriage with the primary and sole purpose of sanctifying oneself and not to have children would render the marriage invalid.
    )

    The post-Vatican II teachings that make mutual love of the spouses the primary end of marriage tend to glorify the sanctifying aspect of marriage to such an extent that they degrade the necessity of the other sacraments (which Paul VI bastardized anyways with his Modernist Novus Ordo new-sacraments). Sanctify-yourself-with-more-sex-and-fewer-sacraments is certainly more appealing to "modern man" than the Eucharist or Penance, so it makes sense why the cult of man Novus Ordo sect promotes abominations like "Theology of the Body".
    Yes, that's marriage's primary end.
    Sure, as in contraception, sodomitical acts, etc., but one can use the evil of concupiscence for a good purpose in marriage:
    Contra Iulianum 5.60:(For more quotes along these lines, see §2. "Saint Augustine and 'Putting Bad to Good Use'" of this article)
    Geremia, you constantly put words into people's mouths.
    t would help if you would learn to read. Take it slowly. Don't rush.

    No person here, no poster here has ever suggested that they have entered marriage with the idea of not having any children. I know a lot of couples who are in the process of sanctifying themselves by prayer and by regularly partaking of the Holy Sacraments, and of sanctifying their children too. Our home is meant to be a domestic church.

    We must raise our children in the faith by: 
    (N/B: not in order of importance)
    1. worshiping, praising, and glorifying our Lord God and Saviour, Jesus Christ
    2. honoring the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints.
    3. praying daily with our children
    4. practicing the Faith with our children
    5. being good examples to our children and to each other
    6. taking our children to church to receive the Holy Sacraments
    7. practicing the Faith with our children
    8. obeying the Ten Commandments and the Commandments of the Church
    9. homeschooling our children
    10. watching our children diligently and not leaving them alone with strangers who may harm them.


    Offline DumbOx

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 2
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #101 on: September 16, 2018, 07:07:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Church always taught from the time of Christ that the primary purpose of the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony is to sanctify our lives and to raise our children in the Holy Faith so that they become saints.
    .
    Lust should have no part in our Christian lives, for one can lust within marriage and be damned.
    .
    Remember the Apostles asked Christ about marriage, and when Christ responded, then they said, "Then who can get married."

    You seem to be mixing up sacraments generally, with the ordered ends of specific sacraments.

    Of course the purpose of all the sacraments is to confer grace. In that sense, matrimony will ordinarily result in the sanctification of both spouses (according to a correct disposition).

    However, the ends God intended for each sacrament are more specific than the general conferring of the graces unique to them.

    Summa Theologica (Supplement)

    Chapter 41 (Matrimony)
    Article 1

    "...in this way matrimony is natural, because natural reason inclines thereto in two ways. First, in relation to the principal end of matrimony, namely the good of the offspring. For nature intends not only the begetting of offspring, but also its education and development until it reach the perfect state of man as man, and that is the state of virtue...

    Chapter 49 (Marriage Goods)
    Article 2

    "Offspring signifies not only the begetting of children, but also their education, to which as its end is directed the entire communion of works that exists between man and wife as united in marriage, since parents naturally “lay up” for their “children” (2 Cor.12:14); so that the offspring like a principal end includes another, as it were, secondary end."

    St Thomas seems pretty clear that the procreation and rearing/education of children are the principal end of Marriage.

    Offline sedevacantist3

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 123
    • Reputation: +51/-95
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #102 on: September 16, 2018, 07:28:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In my case wifey doesn’t want any more kids at 45 yrs of age. So I’m stuck having infrequent relations and when it happens i have to stop so as not to complete the act.  I confessed the sin (priest said not mortal) but i can see it happening again .  Obvuously abstinence is the safest way to go but it’s tough when the wife still wants the affection. I’m in a tough spot 

    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #103 on: September 16, 2018, 07:31:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In my case wifey doesn’t want any more kids at 45 yrs of age. So I’m stuck having infrequent relations and when it happens i have to stop so as not to complete the act.  I confessed the sin (priest said not mortal) but i can see it happening again .  Obvuously abstinence is the safest way to go but it’s tough when the wife still wants the affection. I’m in a tough spot
    I'd check with another priest.  Activities like that where one wilfully holds back on the natural completion are gravely sinful IMO.  [vs. being interrupted or something]


    Anonymous

    • Guest
    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #104 on: September 16, 2018, 07:32:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In my case wifey doesn’t want any more kids at 45 yrs of age. So I’m stuck having infrequent relations and when it happens i have to stop so as not to complete the act.  I confessed the sin (priest said not mortal) but i can see it happening again .  Obvuously abstinence is the safest way to go but it’s tough when the wife still wants the affection. I’m in a tough spot

    Wifey seems to have a very un-Catholic attitude.

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16