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Author Topic: Marriage debt  (Read 8202 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Marriage debt
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2018, 04:19:29 AM »
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  • Heavy metal contamination can not change people into homosevuals and neither can vaccination.
    Heavy metal contamination and mercury poisoning cause adverse changes in the brain.This is why vaccinations are so dangerous. These metals are extremely toxic in small amounts and cause mental confusion, indecision, and lack of mental clarity, which can lead to perversity.
    In my Catholic high school, we were taught in history that Rome fell largely because of the lead used in plumbing, which contributed to ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and perversity.
    Fluoride also causes changes in the brain as fluoride crosses the blood brain barrier. This is why Big Pharma changes drugs by adding fluoride so that these drugs will cross the blood brain barrier.
    The pineal gland is fossilized by the addition of fluoride, and when this happens then the person will have difficulty communicating with God in prayer.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #61 on: September 10, 2018, 08:05:55 AM »
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  • Pope Pius XII says otherwise.

    No, Eugenio Pacelli says otherwise ... in a lengthy rambling speech to a group of midwives.  Pius XI, on the other hand, taught the contrary in an Encyclical letter addressed to the Universal Church.  Pacelli said and did lots of things that were harmful to the Church ... opened the door to evolution, allowed the first Ecuмenical gatherings, set up Bugnini to begin his liturgical experimentation (serveral "Mass of the Future" experiments allowed during his reign), and appointed nearly every single Bishop who would end up bringing us Vatican II.

    Answer the question:  Are you R&R or a sedevacantist?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #62 on: September 10, 2018, 08:06:26 AM »
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  • You sound like a Dimond.  I’ll stick with the Pope.  

    Answer the question:  Are you a sedevacantist?

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #63 on: September 10, 2018, 04:37:02 PM »
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  • Pope Pius XII NEVER gave a rambling speech.  Your assertion is silly.  He was a brilliant theologian, and grasped the complex nuances to theology, something that can’t be said about those who attack him.  


    If anyone needs to read this address of Pope Pius XII to the midwives: go to https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P511029.HTM

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #64 on: September 10, 2018, 06:17:38 PM »
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  • The point is, he was not teaching authoritatively as the pope, but only as a private theologian, wherein he was fallible.  


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #65 on: September 10, 2018, 06:45:36 PM »
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  • Pope Pius XII NEVER gave a rambling speech. 

    He was nearly as notorious as Karol Woytla with regard to extremely lengthy speeches ... and lack of conciseness.

    Still won't answer my question about whether you're R&R or sedevacantist.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #66 on: September 10, 2018, 06:46:43 PM »
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  • The point is, he was not teaching authoritatively as the pope, but only as a private theologian, wherein he was fallible.  

    Correct.  This speech is about as low as you can go where it comes to the degrees of papal authority.  There were several times in the speech where he clearly suggests that many of the topics under discussion were speculative, that these matters require further investigation and elaboration.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #67 on: September 10, 2018, 06:53:44 PM »
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  • Pius XII:

    Quote
    It is necessary first of all to consider two hypotheses. If the application of that theory implies that husband and wife may use their matrimonial right even during the days of natural sterility no objection can be made. In this case they do not hinder or jeopardize in any way the consummation of the natural act and its ulterior natural consequences. It is exactly in this that the application of the theory, of which We are speaking, differs essentially from the abuse already mentioned, which consists in the perversion of the act itself. If, instead, husband and wife go further, that is, limiting the conjugal act exclusively to those periods, then their conduct must be examined more closely.

    Here again we are faced with two hypotheses. If, one of the parties contracted marriage with the intention of limiting the matrimonial right itself to the periods of sterility, and not only its use, in such a manner that during the other days the other party would not even have the right to ask for the debt, than this would imply an essential defect in the marriage consent, which would result in the marriage being invalid, because the right deriving from the marriage contract is a permanent, uninterrupted and continuous right of husband and wife with respect to each other.

    Notice his use of the word "hypotheses" ... followed closely by the word "if" and, in the first passage, "theory" ... clearly suggesting speculation on his part rather than any kind of teaching.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #68 on: September 10, 2018, 10:03:07 PM »
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  • Sorry, that’s not true.  

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #69 on: September 11, 2018, 09:02:57 AM »
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  • Sorry, that’s not true.  

    Uhm, what's not true?

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #70 on: September 11, 2018, 09:11:59 AM »
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  • It is for the husband to decide whether or not he believes that his family should be limited (for serious reasons like poverty etc) and he is perfectly entitled to abstain if he believes this to be the case.

    If his wife wishes for sɛҳuąƖ intercourse because she desires more children that is perfectly morally acceptable, but she must accept her husband's wishes as head of the family and provider.

    For a woman to wish her husband to 'honour the debt' purely and simply because she has a 'high sex drive' is in my view (as a woman) wholly unacceptable and demonstrates an un-natural, un-feminine and un-chaste mindset, rooted in sin and lust.  

    This is wrong on every level.  Every teaching from the Church about abstinence in marriage in clear that it must be a mutual decision between husband and wife, and that either party can essentially change their mind and demand the marriage debt whenever they want.  St. Thomas is clear that husband and wives are equal when it comes to rendering and demanding the marriage debt, and the notion that because the husband is the head of the family the wife cannot demand the debt, is specifically rejected.

    Quote from:
    [left
    Summa Theologiae, Supplementum Tertiæ Partis, Question 64][/left]
    Article 5. Whether husband and wife are equal in the marriage act?
     
    Objection 1. It would seem that husband and wife are not equal in the marriage act. For according to Augustine (Gen. ad lit. xii) the agent is more noble than the patient. But in the marriage act the husband is as agent and the wife as patient. Therefore they are not equal in that act.
     
    Objection 2. Further, the wife is not bound to pay her husband the debt without being asked; whereas he is so bound, as stated above (Articles 1 and 2). Therefore they are not equal in the marriage act.
     
    Objection 3. Further, the woman was made on the man's account in reference to marriage according to Genesis 2:18, "Let us make him a help like unto himself." But that on account of which another thing is, is always the principal. Therefore, etc.
     
    Objection 4. Further, marriage is chiefly directed to the marriage act. But in marriage "the husband is the head of the wife" (Ephesians 5:23). Therefore they are not equal in the aforesaid act.
     
    On the contrary, It is written (1 Corinthians 7:4): "The husband . . . hath not power of his own body," and the same is said of the wife. Therefore they are equal in the marriage act.
     
    Further, Marriage is a relation of equiparence, since it is a kind of union, as stated above (Supplement:44:3). Therefore husband and wife are equal in the marriage act.
     
    I answer that, Equality is twofold, of quantity and of proportion. Equality of quantity is that which is observed between two quantities of the same measure, for instance a thing two cubits long and another two cubits in length. But equality of proportion is that which is observed between two proportions of the same kind as double to double. Accordingly, speaking of the first equality, husband and wife are not equal in marriage; neither as regards the marriage act, wherein the more noble part is due to the husband, nor as regards the household management, wherein the wife is ruled and the husband rules. But with reference to the second kind of equality, they are equal in both matters, because just as in both the marriage act and in the management of the household the husband is bound to the wife in all things pertaining to the husband, so is the wife bound to the husband in all things pertaining to the wife. It is in this sense that it is stated in the text (Sent. iv, D, 32) that they are equal in paying and demanding the debt.
     
    Reply to Objection 1. Although it is more noble to be active than passive, there is the same proportion between patient and passivity as between agent and activity; and accordingly there is equality of proportion between them.
     
    Reply to Objection 2. This is accidental. For the husband having the more noble part in the marriage act, it is natural that he should be less ashamed than the wife to ask for the debt. Hence it is that the wife is not bound to pay the debt to her husband without being asked, whereas the husband is bound to pay it to the wife.
     
    Reply to Objection 3. This proves that they are not equal absolutely, but not that they are not equal in proportion.
     
    Reply to Objection 4. Although the head is the principal member, yet just as the members are bound to the head in their own respective capacities, so is the head in its own capacity bound to the members: and thus there is equality of proportion between them.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #71 on: September 11, 2018, 10:01:43 AM »
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  • Quote
    Uhm, what's not true?
    I was responding to the comment that since a pope's interview was published in the ACTA, then it's official church teaching.  This is not what the ACTA means.
    But the comment I responded to has been deleted.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #72 on: September 11, 2018, 10:15:12 AM »
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  • I was responding to the comment that since a pope's interview was published in the ACTA, then it's official church teaching.  This is not what the ACTA means.
    But the comment I responded to has been deleted.

    Oh, OK.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #73 on: September 11, 2018, 10:31:51 AM »
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  • Yes, I deleted the comment that claimed that criticism of NFP, failure to use NFP, and/or being against NFP was a mortal sin, or some such nonsense.

    This isn't the MHFM website -- it's not permitted to throw around "mortal sin" like it's candy, or confuse "mortal sin" with "disagreeing with me". They are not the same thing. I think some people essentially think they are God: How else can you explain it? They actually consider that being "against me" is being "against God", hence mortal sin.

    Matthew

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #74 on: September 13, 2018, 08:16:13 PM »
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  • Wow...so women aren't even allowed to use marriage for concupiscence anymore. That's news to me. We should tell all the women in the world that they don't have a right to sɛҳuąƖ pleasure in marriage. I'm sure we'll have an increase in unions (note heavy sarcasm).

    I am also heavily skeptical of the people who claim that only the man's opinion on abstinence matters as if you don't need mutual consent. I get that feminism was bad, folks, but we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Please don't teach your young men these things.

    You can safely ignore that ridiculous Puritanical opinion from the Anonymous poster.  It could very well be that Heimaten (sp?) guy whom Matthew banned a long time ago for Puritan/Jansenist heresy.

    Yes, women too have an equal right with their husbands to the secondary ends of marital relations, one of which is the allaying of concupiscence (not to mention the strengthening of mutual affect, which marital relations do in fact bring about).

    No need to spill too much virtual ink refuting that guy.