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Author Topic: Marriage debt  (Read 8204 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Marriage debt
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2018, 11:37:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on September 08, 2018, 06:23:26 PM
    My sister had a husband who did not wish to be with her much.  Turned out he was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ who gave my sister herpes.

    That's legitimate grounds for annulment.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #31 on: September 09, 2018, 11:39:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on September 08, 2018, 06:56:42 PM
    Then you are at odds with the Pope.  I’ll listen and obey him, not you.

    "Obey?"  :laugh1:

    No Pope ever said you must use NFP.

    You only "obey" yourself, preferring to do what you want rather than what God wants.  Bottom line with 99% of NFPers.
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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #32 on: September 09, 2018, 11:51:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 09, 2018, 11:37:58 AM
    That's legitimate grounds for annulment.

    Yes definitely. 
    First of all, I'm sure she didn't know that about him before she married him. And considering it's an important matter touching on the essence of the Sacrament of Matrimony, I'd say it's grounds for a claim of "fraud" or "misrepresentation".
    Matthew

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #33 on: September 09, 2018, 12:17:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on September 08, 2018, 12:51:07 PM
     From what I've read and heard in both Catholic and non-Catholic circles, it's usually the man that wants the debt as often as possible, and the woman who is the limiting factor.

    Matthew
    That's because you're talking to men.
    Talk to women in their 70's & 80's and you'll see too many of them have been denied the debt for
    35, 47, 28 YEARS  before their husbands died.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #34 on: September 09, 2018, 12:18:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 09, 2018, 11:37:58 AM
    That's legitimate grounds for annulment.
    ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a sin, not a permanent state of a person (like impediments of perpetual impotence, etc.). What do his sins have to do with his sacramental intentionality to be open to children?

    Presumably he married in the Church, which includes pre-marriage classes in which the priest can assess the couple's openness to children, and the priest must have thought he was open to life in marriage, else the priest could not have in good conscience married the couple.
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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #35 on: September 09, 2018, 12:29:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on September 09, 2018, 12:17:30 PM
    That's because you're talking to men.
    Talk to women in their 70's & 80's and you'll see too many of them have been denied the debt for
    35, 47, 28 YEARS  before their husbands died.
    This is often because husbands lose their ability to perform, are embarrassed, and do not want to use viagra, etc.
    Yes, some of these men are ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs and only married as a cover for their perversity. Sometimes their wives do not find out about this until many many years later if at all. Hidden lies and broken lives.
    Could this decreased sex drive be due to our poor diet of processed foods? What has changed in the last 100 years?
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    Offline Geremia

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    Contraceptive vaccines!
    « Reply #36 on: September 09, 2018, 01:43:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on September 09, 2018, 12:29:18 PM
    This is often because husbands lose their ability to perform, are embarrassed, and do not want to use viagra, etc.
    That sort of impotence is the best indicator of heart disease. They don't need Viagra; they need to stop eating so much fat.

    Quote from: Anonymous on September 09, 2018, 12:29:18 PM
    Could this decreased sex drive be due to our poor diet of processed foods? What has changed in the last 100 years?
    Serm concentration has dramatically decreased.
    From a recent study:
    Quote
    A time-dependent decline of sperm concentration (r = -0.307, p = 0.02) in the last 50 years and an overall 32.5% decrease in mean sperm concentration was noted.
    I'm not sure how much is due to environmental factors or simply to effeminacy, but there are abilities to target sperm using antigens (same technology used in home sperm counters, but used as a spermacide). There are even patents on using these sperm antigens in "contraceptive vaccines"!
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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #37 on: September 09, 2018, 03:54:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on September 09, 2018, 01:43:59 PM
    That sort of impotence is the best indicator of heart disease. They don't need Viagra; they need to stop eating so much fat sugar and carbs.
    Fixed it for you.

    Fat doesn't necessarily make you fat. It makes you feel full, so you stop eating. Carbs and sugars make you crash and eat even more. Plus they put your body into an emergency mode to deal with blood sugar by converting it into fat. 

    People need to skip the high fructose corn syrup-laden beverages, the bun and the french fries -- not the burger, the bacon, or the real cheese made with whole milk.

    The proof is when people switch to low-carb diets they tend to lose weight, and they don't crash anymore and have more steady energy all day long. Of course, eventually you plateau because protein, carbs, and fat can all be converted to energy (and hence, fat). Calories are also an issue.

    In the end, you have to take in less calories than you burn or you're going to gain weight. But regulating blood sugar (by avoiding foods with a high glycemic index) and avoiding blood glucose spikes certainly doesn't hurt.

    Matthew
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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #38 on: September 09, 2018, 03:56:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on September 09, 2018, 12:18:48 PM
    ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a sin, not a permanent state of a person (like impediments of perpetual impotence, etc.). What do his sins have to do with his sacramental intentionality to be open to children?

    Presumably he married in the Church, which includes pre-marriage classes in which the priest can assess the couple's openness to children, and the priest must have thought he was open to life in marriage, else the priest could not have in good conscience married the couple.

    I don't know about that.

    It's a fundamental flaw in the person as well, more like a birth defect. A person doesn't just decide to be done with sodomy and move on. That is true with stealing or lying, for example. But you don't just plunge into sodomy and then swear it off completely. A perversion or psychological disorder -- especially one so closely touching on the matter of the Sacrament -- can very much be an impediment for a contract like marriage.

    Is insanity an impediment? If various mental illnesses can make one unsuitable for marriage, I would suggest that the mental illness of same-sex attraction does as well.

    Matthew
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #39 on: September 09, 2018, 04:07:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on September 09, 2018, 12:18:48 PM
    ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a sin, not a permanent state of a person (like impediments of perpetual impotence, etc.). What do his sins have to do with his sacramental intentionality to be open to children?

    Presumably he married in the Church, which includes pre-marriage classes in which the priest can assess the couple's openness to children, and the priest must have thought he was open to life in marriage, else the priest could not have in good conscience married the couple.

    Because the fraud involved vitiates the intention.  If he had told her of his "inclination", and they both agreed to go ahead with the marriage, that would be a different matter altogether.  I knew a specific case of exactly this, a closeted ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ man who came out only years later; marriage was annulled.  Both couples must consent to the marriage, and extensive fraud like this essentially means that the consent of the other party came through fraud.  Concealing STDs would also constitute fraudulently getting consent.

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #40 on: September 09, 2018, 04:12:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on September 09, 2018, 12:18:48 PM
    ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a sin, not a permanent state of a person (like impediments of perpetual impotence, etc.). What do his sins have to do with his sacramental intentionality to be open to children?

    Presumably he married in the Church, which includes pre-marriage classes in which the priest can assess the couple's openness to children, and the priest must have thought he was open to life in marriage, else the priest could not have in good conscience married the couple.
    ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is both a sin and a semi-permanent state of person(by that I mean I think it can theoretically be cured, but it's not just like a cold or something that'll go away by itself in a short whole). Obviously there's the sin of sodomy that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs engage in, but one would never even want to sleep with another man if he was not already in the perverted state of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity. 
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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #41 on: September 09, 2018, 04:16:02 PM »
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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #42 on: September 09, 2018, 04:45:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 09, 2018, 11:39:01 AM
    "Obey?"  :laugh1:

    No Pope ever said you must use NFP.

    You only "obey" yourself, preferring to do what you want rather than what God wants.  Bottom line with 99% of NFPers.
    I never said I used NFP.  You are rash in your assumptions about someone you have no knowledge about.  
    I obey the Pope by believing him, and if I and my spouse ever use the method approved by Pope Pius XII, not NFP, then that is our right to do so with a clear conscience.
    I don’t learn my Faith by listening to the Dimonds, I learn from the Pope and believe him.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #43 on: September 09, 2018, 04:57:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on September 09, 2018, 04:45:34 PM
    I never said I used NFP.  You are rash in your assumptions about someone you have no knowledge about.  
    I obey the Pope by believing him, and if I and my spouse ever use the method approved by Pope Pius XII, not NFP, then that is our right to do so with a clear conscience.
    I don’t learn my Faith by listening to the Dimonds, I learn from the Pope and believe him.  

    So, are you R&R or a sedevacantist?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #44 on: September 09, 2018, 04:59:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on September 09, 2018, 04:45:34 PM
    I don’t learn my Faith by listening to the Dimonds, I learn from the Pope and believe him.  

    Then you need to read primarily the authoritative teaching of Pius XI on the subject, in an Encyclical letter issued to the entire Church, and not rely on the opining of Pius XII as a private doctor to a group of midwives.  This has nothing to do with the Dimonds; they simply lay out the evidence.  Pius XII did and said a lot of things that did much damage and led right into Vatican II.
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