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Author Topic: Marriage debt  (Read 8241 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Marriage debt
« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2018, 08:39:23 PM »
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  • You seem to be mixing up sacraments generally, with the ordered ends of specific sacraments.

    Of course the purpose of all the sacraments is to confer grace. In that sense, matrimony will ordinarily result in the sanctification of both spouses (according to a correct disposition).

    However, the ends God intended for each sacrament are more specific than the general conferring of the graces unique to them.

    Summa Theologica (Supplement)

    Chapter 41 (Matrimony)
    Article 1

    "...in this way matrimony is natural, because natural reason inclines thereto in two ways. First, in relation to the principal end of matrimony, namely the good of the offspring. For nature intends not only the begetting of offspring, but also its education and development until it reach the perfect state of man as man, and that is the state of virtue...

    Chapter 49 (Marriage Goods)
    Article 2

    "Offspring signifies not only the begetting of children, but also their education,
    to which as its end is directed the entire communion of works that exists between man and wife as united in marriage, since parents naturally “lay up” for their “children” (2 Cor.12:14); so that the offspring like a principal end includes another, as it were, secondary end."

    St Thomas seems pretty clear that the procreation and rearing/education of children are the principal end of Marriage.
    A new one  ...  Another one .... Welcome
    But please learn to read.
    In the citation from Chapter 41, St. Thomas says that that the principal end of matrimony is NOT ONLY the begetting of offspring, BUT ALSO reaching PERFECTION, or that STATE OF VIRTUE, in other words, we must be purified, illuminated, and sanctified through the Holy Sacraments.
    We must cooperate with God so that we and our children will reach the state of perfection through the school (education) of penance, study,  daily chores, prayer, and union with God.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #106 on: September 16, 2018, 08:55:11 PM »
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  • The Church has always taught that voluntary celibacy is the best state for sanctification, not Marriage. This is a hard teaching for many, but it is the truth.

    That does not mean that if you are married, you can't be holy, of course, but Marriage has a specific purpose attached to it. The formation of a family. 

    This is one of the main VII errors, displacing the primary means of marriage, from procreation of children, to "love" and companionship of the spouses. 


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #107 on: September 16, 2018, 09:30:06 PM »
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  • The Church has always taught that voluntary celibacy is the best state for sanctification, not Marriage. This is a hard teaching for many, but it is the truth.

    That does not mean that if you are married, you can't be holy, of course, but Marriage has a specific purpose attached to it. The formation of a family.

    This is one of the main VII errors, displacing the primary means of marriage, from procreation of children, to "love" and companionship of the spouses.
    Again, please learn to read.
    We are all called to be citizens of heaven.
    We are all called to raise our children to be saints, like the holy family of St. Therese of Liseaux and that of St. Basil the Great. All  the members of these two families were declared saints or blessed. Yes, not everyone follows the path to holiness as it is difficult, but this is our calling.
    As a Dominican Tertiary, I have met many good families who live a devout life as husbands and wives, and their children are holy too.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #108 on: September 16, 2018, 09:49:25 PM »
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  • Isn't it a sin to render to God the bare minimum? Shouldn't we be giving Him our all and thanking and praising Him for our very existence.

    Aren't we to love the Lord our God with our whole body, our whole mind, our whole heart, and our whole soul, and our neighbor as ourselves? If we truly love our neighbor (and our spouse and children) as ourselves, then we will want them to be in heaven with us.

    I have met guys who spend most of their days in lustful thoughts. They go to church on Sunday to pay their 30 minutes of respect to God, but the rest of the week is theirs.

    This is not the straight and narrow pathway to heaven, but the very broad and comfortable road to Hell.

    Offline DumbOx

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #109 on: September 16, 2018, 09:51:13 PM »
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  • A new one  ...  Another one .... Welcome
    But please learn to read.
    In the citation from Chapter 41, St. Thomas says that that the principal end of matrimony is NOT ONLY the begetting of offspring, BUT ALSO reaching PERFECTION, or that STATE OF VIRTUE, in other words, we must be purified, illuminated, and sanctified through the Holy Sacraments.
    We must cooperate with God so that we and our children will reach the state of perfection through the school (education) of penance, study,  daily chores, prayer, and union with God.

    Nobody has argued against the ideal that sanctified parents are going to more easily pass on the Faith and raise sanctified children.

    The 'learn to read' quip can apply both  ways - St Thomas nowhere states the sanctification of the SPOUSES is the primary end of Marriage. He places the begetting of OFFSPRING and the OFFSPRING'S attainment of virtue as the primary end.

    Again, to reiterate, holy parents will more easily rear virtue in their children. But you have to have children before they can attain virtue and reach Heaven.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #110 on: September 16, 2018, 09:54:09 PM »
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  • As a Dominican Tertiary, I have met many good families who live a devout life as husbands and wives, and their children are holy too.

    I know of not a single Dominican Tertiary declared and defined saint and example for the faithful.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #111 on: September 16, 2018, 09:54:49 PM »
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  • Nobody has argued against the ideal that sanctified parents are going to more easily pass on the Faith and raise sanctified children.

    The 'learn to read' quip can apply both  ways - St Thomas nowhere states the sanctification of the SPOUSES is the primary end of Marriage. He places the begetting of OFFSPRING and the OFFSPRING'S attainment of virtue as the primary end.

    Again, to reiterate, holy parents will more easily rear virtue in their children. But you have to have children before they can attain virtue and reach Heaven.
    It is glaringly obvious to me that you have never studied theology at the college level.
    I have.
    Read what I wrote again.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #112 on: September 16, 2018, 09:56:37 PM »
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  • I know of not a single Dominican Tertiary declared and defined saint and example for the faithful.
    Where have you been? There are many Dominican Saints. One of the most recent is a Spanish Dominican widow who was declared to be a saint not too long ago. St. Catherine of Siena is also a Dominican Tertiary.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #113 on: September 16, 2018, 09:59:24 PM »
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  • Where have you been? There are many Dominican Saints. One of the most recent is a Spanish Dominican widow who was declared to be a saint not too long ago. St. Catherine of Siena is also a Dominican Tertiary.
    Which other one beside St. Catherine of Siena, declared saint before Vat II?

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #114 on: September 16, 2018, 10:04:46 PM »
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  • It is glaringly obvious to me that you have never studied theology at the college level.
    I have.
    Read what I wrote again.

    You claim authority of someone who studied theology at the college level.

    Theologians do not have any authority in the Church. They may be called as advisors by those who have authority, but they don't have any. Authority is reserved to the magisterium of the Chruch. The magisterium has apostolic authority, provided by Our Lord. Didn't they teach that at your college?

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #115 on: September 16, 2018, 10:08:32 PM »
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  • Another observation (a little sidetracked from the OP)...

    I really believe that VII putting 'mutual love and support between spouses' on the same level as the 'begetting of children' (i.e. both considered primary ends) opened the door to the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ 'marriage' movement. ( maybe that was exactly the plan?)

    This effectively destroyed the fundamental argument against sodomite 'marriage' - that regardless of any 'love', an inherently barren union cannot attain the fundamental end of Marriage: the begetting of children.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #116 on: September 16, 2018, 10:47:59 PM »
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  • I know of not a single Dominican Tertiary declared and defined saint and example for the faithful.
    You need to read up on the saints. Try https://laydominicans.org/study/dominican-saints/
    Don't have time to sort for you but you'll be better informed after studying the list
     
    THE FRATERNITIES OF ST. DOMINIC SAINTS AND BLESSEDS (INCOMPLETE LIST)
    ST. CATHERINE OF SIENA (1347-1380)
    Italian, virgin, renowned mystic, stigmatist, diplomat, peacemaker, author of The Dialogue, second woman Doctor of the Church, Church appointed patroness of the Fraternities of Saint Dominic, co-patroness with St. Francis of Italy, patroness of Rome, nurses, fire prevention, canonized 1461.
    St. Rose of Lima (1586-1617)
    Peruvian, virgin, great ascetic, Church appointed patroness of South America, first canonized saint of New World 1671. Member of the Fraternities of Saint Dominic.
    St. Louis de Montfort (1673-1700)
    French, priest member of the Fraternities of Saint Dominic, brother of a Dominican priest, preacher of parish missions, author, founder of religious congregation of men and another of women, all to spread devotion to Mary and the Rosary as inspired by St. Dominic (May 24 and Aug.8).
    St. Zedíslava Berkiana (1221-1252)
    Lay Dominican and wife. Bohemian, she carefully raised four children and founded 2 Dominican priories, her charities, at times miraculously confirmed, abounded for the needy, the sick, and indigent families, she died in her husband’s arms. In 1989, through her intercession, a doctor was healed from a lengthy coma by a miracle. Canonized by John Paul II May 21, 1995, and established as a memorial, but unfortunately permanently supplanted in the U.S. by the memorial of St. Elizabeth Ann Seton.
    Bl. Margaret of Castello (1287-1320)
    Italian, abandoned as a child because of blindness and severe, unsightly handicaps, and so patron of pro-life causes, virgin, mystic, instructor of children.
    Bl. Pier-Giorgio Frassati (1901-1925)
    Italian, as a Tertiary took the name Bro. Jerome after Fra Savonarola, whom he venerated as a saint, popular among his peers, ardent athlete, tireless servant of the poor, apostle to his fellow university students in Turin, he died after 6 days with polio.
    Bl. Bartolo Longo (1841-1926)
    Italian, lawyer, ex-priest of Satan, husband, widower, propagator of the Rosary, catechist, Dominican Fraternity member, founder of orphanage of congregation of Dominican sisters, and of the Shrine of O.L. of Pompeii.
    Bl. Jane of Orvieto (1264-1306)
    Italian, virgin, worker among the poor, Lay Dominican.
    Bl. Villana de’ Botti (1332-1361)
    Italian, wife and mother, contemplative, worker among the poor, Lay Dominican.
    Bl. Columba of Rieti (1467-1501)
    Italian, virgin, inspired by St. Catherine of Siena (April 29) to become a fraternity member, became a cloistered sister at the bishop’s request, prophetess, peacemaker.
    Bl. Hosanna of Mantua (1449-1505)
    Italian, virgin, celebrated mystic, author, adviser to lawmakers, Lay Dominican.
    Bl. Adrian Fortescue (1476-1539)
    English, husband and father, cousin of Anne Boleyn, martyred by Henry VIII, Lay Dominican.
    Bl. Catherine of Racconigi (1486-1547)
    Italian, virgin, ascetic, mystic.
    Blessed Arnold Janssen (1837 – 1909)
    Priest and Founder
    Bl. Madeline Panattieri (1433-1503)
    Italian, virgin, celebrated preacheress, adviser, Lay Dominican. The following is a list of Dominican Saints and Blesseds are from the First Order (friars) and Second Order (nuns).
    OUR HOLY FATHER ST DOMINIC (1170-1221)
    AKA “The Apostolic Father”, saint, Spanish, priest, scholar, ascetic, mystic, apologist, innovator, miracle-worker, laid foundation for the Rosary, founder of the Order of Preachers, eloquent preacher.
    St. Hyacinth Odrowatz (1187-1257)
    Polish, priest, brother of Bl. Ceslaus (July 17), one of first Dominicans, founder of the Polish Province, missionary to Slavs and Nordics, Church appointed patron of Poland, canonized 1594.
    St. Albert The Great (1206-1280)
    German, Bishop of Ratisbon, now known as Regensburg, in S. Germany, theologian of renown, philosopher, scientist, diplomat, teacher, inventor, teacher of St. Thomas Aquinas, called great already in his lifetime, criss-crossed his diocese on foot and so nicknamed “Doctor Boots” by his contemporaries, “Universal Doctor” of the Church, Church appointed patron of scientists, medical technicians, proclaimed Doctor and thus equivalently canonized 1931.
    St. Raymond of Peñafort (1175-1275)
    Spanish, priest, canonist, diplomat, Third Master of the Order, Church appointed patron of canonists, canonized in 1601.
    St. Margaret of Hungary (1242-1270)
    Hungarian, virgin, royal princess, nun, mystic, canonized 1943.
    St. Vincent Ferrer (1350-1419)
    Spanish, priest, celebrated itinerant preacher and ascetic, Church appointed patron of builders, canonized 1455.
    St. Pius V (1504-1572)
    Italian, inquisitor, pope (1566-1572, 3rd Dominican pope), reformer, diplomat, great promoter of the rosary, canonized 1712.
    St. Louis Bertrand (1526-1581)
    Spanish, priest, ascetic, novice master, missionary to South America, Church appointed patron of Colombia and of Dominican novice masters.
    St. Martin de Porres (1579-1639)
    Peruvian, first a Lay Dominican then a Cooperator Brother; infirmarian, barber, worker among the poor, remarkable wonder-worker, Church appointed patron of social justice, cooperator brothers, and hair dressers, canonized 1962.
    Bl. Henry Suso (Seuse) (+1366)
    German, priest, renowned mystic and author.
    Bl. Jordan of Saxony (1185-1237)
    German, priest, renowned preacher, diplomat, “the first university chaplain”, successor of St. Dominic as Master of the Order, effective promoter of Dominican vocations, patron of Dominican vocation work.
    Bl. Innocent V (1224-1276)
    AKA “Peter of Tarentaise”, French, pope (1276, first Dominican pope), scholar, administrator, Archbishop of Lyons.
    Bl. Benedict XI (1240-1304)
    AKA “Nicholas Boccasini”, Italian, pope (1303- 1304, second Dominican pope), 9th Master of the Order, Bishop of Ostia, diplomat.
    Bl. Reginald of Orleans (1180-1220) French, priest, teacher, preacher, early Dominican, friend of St. Dominic, effective promoter of Dominican vocations.
    The 117 Martyrs of Vietnam Saints: Ignatius Delgado, Spanish, (+1838)
    and 5 other Dominican bishops; Vincent Liem, Vietnamese, and 15 other Dominican priests (+1773); 3 priests of the Third Order; Dominic An-Kham, Vietnamese, (+1859) and 9 other Lay Dominicans; 24 parishioners of Dominican missions; and 58 others not associated with the Order, canonized 1988.
    The 16 Martyrs of Nagasaki
    Saints: Lorenzo Ruiz, husband and father, Protomartyr of the Philippines, member of the Rosary Confraternity (+1637); Dominic Ibañez de Erquicia, Spanish (+1633), and James Kyushei Tomonaga, Japanese, and 7 other Dominican priests; 2 Dominican Cooperator Brothers; 2 Lay Dominicans; 2 parishioners of Dominican missions, canonized 1987.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #117 on: September 16, 2018, 10:52:01 PM »
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  • Please remove those from the list which were not married.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #118 on: September 16, 2018, 11:11:08 PM »
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  • Please remove those from the list which were not married.
    Don't have time to sort for you but you'll be better informed after studying the list
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Online Geremia

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    Re: Marriage debt
    « Reply #119 on: September 17, 2018, 06:53:40 PM »
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  • Isn't it a sin to render to God the bare minimum?
    Not necessarily. We must obey the precepts, but we are not obliged to put the counsels into action, and we should not be opposed to the spirit of the counsels.

    St. Thomas's commentary on Mt. 19:12 ("He that can take, let him take it."):
    Quote
    But why is this? Is not a man obliged to do the greater good? I say that one must distinguish the greater good in regard to the actual performance or in regard to the desire. One is not held to the greater good in regard to their actual performance, but to the desire to do them, because every rule and every action is determined to something defined and certain : but if one is bound to do every action that is better, one is bound to something uncertain. Hence, in regard to exterior actions, because one is not bound to do something uncertain, one is not bound to do the greater good; but in regard to the desire, one is held to desire the greater good. Hence, he who does not always wish to be better, cannot wish without contempt [of doing the greater good].5

    5. “There is a way of fulfilling this precept, so as to avoid sin, namely, if one do what one can as required by the conditions of one’s state of life: provided there be no contempt of doing better things, which contempt sets the mind against spiritual progress” (II II, q. 186, a. 2 ad 2um).
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