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Author Topic: Living Far from a Church by Some Degree of Choice  (Read 2342 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Living Far from a Church by Some Degree of Choice
« on: December 23, 2016, 12:46:38 AM »
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  • What do you do if a location that you will need to move to for a job or such is far from a traditional church?  Do you turn down this job opportunity since you are under an obligation to assist at mass on all Sundays and Holy Days?  This would be assuming you had other lower choices and it was not your only possible employment.  What about a young person who is moving out of the family home and starting their own path with a job and their own home.  Should they only follow a path that will lead them to a location with a church?  


    Änσnymσus

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    Living Far from a Church by Some Degree of Choice
    « Reply #1 on: December 23, 2016, 08:51:13 AM »
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  • Consider a diocesan Latin Mass/Ukrainian/Byzantine Rite church.


    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #2 on: December 23, 2016, 09:00:34 AM »
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  • Given the situation today, no place is assured that there will be a nearby church for the true Catholic sacraments.  You could relocate next door to a traditional Chapel that might close its doors tomorrow.  You could relocate next door to a traditional Chapel that is a part of a larger organization only to have that organization "reconcile" with heretics and renounce tradition.  There are no longer any guarantees.

    The Commandment is to keep holy the Lord's Day.  I would try to be near one, if it is reasonably possible but I would not pass up an opportunity that would enable me to take better care of my family and provide for the future solely for the reason you present because of the uncertainty.  

    Additionally, perhaps with your higher income you would be able to begin to coordinate for a priest to come provide the sacraments, at least on occasion, to your family and others who may be in the area.  Eventually, you may even be able to found a chapel (it seems that this was what Matthew did, though he didn't move first, his chapel was no longer an option).

    Offline Miseremini

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    Living Far from a Church by Some Degree of Choice
    « Reply #3 on: December 23, 2016, 06:17:21 PM »
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  • TKGS is absolutely right!  Think of the first American settlers;  think of Mary and Joseph in Egypt....no temple in sight.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #4 on: December 23, 2016, 06:59:57 PM »
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  • Think of all the good-willed Catholics who made "proximity to an SSPX chapel" their primary criterion when shopping for a new home.

    I know we did this when we picked out our "forever home" which we're currently living in. But I'm sure that many other Trads do this as well. Many good Traditional Catholics do their best to move somewhere where there's Mass. And by "Mass", I mean a doubt-free Mass, a.k.a. a Tridentine Mass.

    With the fall of the SSPX, many Trads are now out of luck. The SSPX wasn't just *a* trad group. They were the 800 pound gorilla of the Trad world. When you remove SSPX chapels from the landscape (from your list of options), the Tridentine Mass coverage begins to look bleak indeed.

    The SSPX wasn't just the #1 trad group, they were #1 by a ridiculous margin. The #2 player (whoever it is) is a faint shadow of the SSPX in terms of number of priests, reach (# of Mass centers), resources, etc. The SSPX was massive.

    THAT is why so many Trads care what happened/happens to them, and why it was such a disaster when +Fellay steered the ship decisively into the rocks.
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    Offline OHCA

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    « Reply #5 on: December 24, 2016, 09:19:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    Consider a diocesan Latin Mass/Ukrainian/Byzantine Rite church.


    I am not sure about status of Ukrainian/Byzantine priests.  But most all diocesan "priests" were ordained in the post-1968 "rite" and are thus invalid--only make-believe priests--prietenders if you will.

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    « Reply #6 on: December 24, 2016, 09:41:19 AM »
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  • The Ukrainian/Byzantine ordinations - likely out of fear of having history repeat itself - have been left alone.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #7 on: December 24, 2016, 10:16:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: JezusDeKoning
    The Ukrainian/Byzantine ordinations - likely out of fear of having history repeat itself - have been left alone.


    I was told by a Byzantine priest many years ago that many Byzantine priests in America were Novus Ordo priests that changed rites.  Furthermore, he said that many Byzantine priests are ordained by Novus Ordo bishops (in the Byzantine Rite) due to the few number of Eastern bishops available.  

    Whether this is true or not, I don't know; but it was what a Byzantine priests said.


    Änσnymσus

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    Living Far from a Church by Some Degree of Choice
    « Reply #8 on: December 24, 2016, 10:43:06 AM »
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  • Here in Phoenix, the Byzantine rite is shaking hands with the dioceses Bishop; they get along.  The Byzantine rite changed their ways as soon as the elderly priest of age 90 died in the 90's.  That's when I saw big changes, and not to the good.


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #9 on: December 24, 2016, 12:21:01 PM »
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  • I think the Byzantine/Ukrainian Rite should only be on the table if you are Ukrainian or Greek, or if your family has a history in that Rite.

    It really underscores how messed up the Church is, when people have to change Rites to something completely foreign to their culture.

    Just like it's pretty bad when people are forced to leave their native land, going to a completely foreign country, because their native land is ravaged by famine and/or war.

    It's not ideal.

    But the comparison is perfect, because a man could legitimately decide to stay in his native land, even if he and/or all his family ended up starving to death as a result. God doesn't ever require a person to give up everything he has ever known.

    Likewise, it would be perfectly acceptable for a man to be a home aloner, even if his family all ended up being a worst-case scenario (i.e., losing the Faith) because he wouldn't consider going to another foreign Rite.

    The way I see it, if God wanted me to try out the Maronite, Byzantine, or Ukranian Rites, he would have given me OR my wife AT LEAST SOME Lebanese, Greek, or Ukrainian heritage.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Living Far from a Church by Some Degree of Choice
    « Reply #10 on: December 24, 2016, 08:10:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    I think the Byzantine/Ukrainian Rite should only be on the table if you are Ukrainian or Greek, or if your family has a history in that Rite.

    It really underscores how messed up the Church is, when people have to change Rites to something completely foreign to their culture.

    Just like it's pretty bad when people are forced to leave their native land, going to a completely foreign country, because their native land is ravaged by famine and/or war.

    It's not ideal.

    But the comparison is perfect, because a man could legitimately decide to stay in his native land, even if he and/or all his family ended up starving to death as a result. God doesn't ever require a person to give up everything he has ever known.

    Likewise, it would be perfectly acceptable for a man to be a home aloner, even if his family all ended up being a worst-case scenario (i.e., losing the Faith) because he wouldn't consider going to another foreign Rite.

    The way I see it, if God wanted me to try out the Maronite, Byzantine, or Ukranian Rites, he would have given me OR my wife AT LEAST SOME Lebanese, Greek, or Ukrainian heritage.


    Sorry, but there's complete disagreement here!  As a husband and father, you'd see your wife, children, and yourself in Hell rather than switch rites?   By this logic, my great-grandparents should have remained Protestants and/or starved to death in their native lands.  Had they done so, half would be in Hell and I wouldn't be posting this.  Instead, they left all that was familiar behind, came to America, learned a new language, a new culture, and half of them, a new religion where they were never really socially accepted.  
    As the sole "convert" to Tradition, should I have remained a Catholic-in-name Christmas & Easter novus ordo-ite, or in one of the several Protestant denominations where, for several decades, I sought refuge from spiritual famine?  Was I not obliged to become a Traditional Catholic when God gave me the graces to make a radical change?  
    Have the last 10 years been wasted adjusting to "foreign" customs, learning a new language, a new way of life, losing the social support of all of my friends and rejection by all but two elderly family members, not to mention the opportunity to secure material provision for my old age?   The rupture in the SSPX has resulted in further loss, of Catholic friends and now, of Mass and the Sacraments.  
    Under these conditions I realize I can very well lose my soul, but isn't it better to die trying to save it and fail, than to lose it remaining where I'm comfortable?
    I'm not a theologian, but it seems to me Our Lord said that His followers ARE obliged to give up everything for His sake.  Those who do not are not worthy of Him.

    To the OP, will you keep the Faith without the supports you're used to?  What is more important, saving your soul or making a "success" of life in this world?  If you have a Catholic family with whom you are welcome to live, a reliable source of Mass and Sacraments, a means of earning money to help your family, why would you move away from this?  Just as your Mass may dry up or your family kick you out, so, too, could you fail to find a good paying job in the career of your choice or find a suitable woman for your wife.  IMO, if God makes it possible for you to have the advantages of Church and Catholic companionship, cherish these for as long as you're able.  Many, many Catholics would willingly trade places with you!  


    Änσnymσus

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    Living Far from a Church by Some Degree of Choice
    « Reply #11 on: December 24, 2016, 10:35:06 PM »
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    Sorry, but there's complete disagreement here!  my great-grandparents should have remained Protestants and/or starved to death in their native lands.  Had they done so, half would be in Hell and I wouldn't be posting this.  Instead, they left all that was familiar behind, came to America, learned a new language, a new culture, and half of them, a new religion where they were never really socially accepted.  



    What was the new religion they adapted?  Was it catholic?  If so they only reverted to the religion of their ancestors.  Depending on how many generations were protestant they may still have retained some Catholic culture.

    As for switching rites, this can only be done with the permission of a Bishop, so with the situation we're in which Bishop has the athority to  to give it?

    Änσnymσus

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    Living Far from a Church by Some Degree of Choice
    « Reply #12 on: December 25, 2016, 03:25:04 AM »
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  • Yes, my Lutheran great-grandparents found themselves in a predominantly Catholic neighborhood in NY.  They converted after about a year in the U.S.

    As for switching rites, I'm not sure how that works with dysfunctional and/or invalid diocesan bishops.  Technically speaking, I need to secure the bishop's permission to regularly hear mass in a church outside my diocese of residence.  It is largely irrelevant in today's circuмstances.  The bishops over my residence and over the diocese where the SSPX has its chapel don't know I exist.  The only official (diocesan) record of my existence is in the church where I was baptized in 1960.  What was once a huge diocese is now three dioceses.  The parish where I made my First Communion and Confirmation has no record of either, nor are there records in any of the seats of these three dioceses.  I found this out when I requested to be conditionally Confirmed.  As a result, I had to first formally study and pass the test for First Communion and then do the same for Confirmation.  So far as the novus ordo is concerned, I dropped off the face of the earth.
    (In one church was discovered a turn-out sheet of loose-leaf paper in the back of a volume of records listing some of the persons with whom I was "confirmed."  It's written in pencil with various check marks, question marks, cross-offs, etc. beside the names, one of which is mine.  On top is written "1976?")  
    Has the OP consulted his priest on the matter?  

    A friend's son and daughter-in-law went from hearing Mass at an SSPX chapel to a Maronite rite church.  Neither is ethnically a Maronite. They've been going there for two years, their third child baptized a few weeks ago, apparently without the Latin rite bishop's permission.  

    If another rite is a possibility, I'd say just start going to Mass.  If the priest or bishop of the different rite has an issue with a person from the Latin rite, he'll surely make it known.  Or just go see him yourself.  

    Änσnymσus

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    Living Far from a Church by Some Degree of Choice
    « Reply #13 on: December 31, 2016, 01:09:44 PM »
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  • I just try to pray a lot about what God wants. I don't always get an answer i am absolutely sure is from God.. but when that happens i try to go by feelings, which hopefully are influenced by the Holy Spirit. So far, i have seen interesting things happen when i do this and so i feel i am doing God's will. That said, i am not sure God really "cares" overly much about such things as: where we live, what exact job we have. What he does care about is whether or not you go to Mass, spend time in the Real Presence. Some things are obvoiusly more important to God than other things. "My ways are not your ways, " He says in Isaiah "My thoughts are not your thoughts"