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Author Topic: Let's talk about age gaps  (Read 35384 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Let's talk about age gaps
« Reply #210 on: November 03, 2025, 08:39:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 03, 2025, 08:22:24 AM
    Where's your proof?

    It's a rhetorical question, because there is no proof.  We simple don't know and can only speculate.
    Our Lady was around 15 and St Joseph was around 30.  Saints have said this, as even historians admit it.  There's plenty of proof.  St Joseph already had a business as a carpenter.  In those days, you studied under an experienced person for a certain time, before you were independent.  It all lines up with his age of around 30.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #211 on: November 03, 2025, 08:43:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Everlast22 on November 03, 2025, 07:50:13 AM
    I personally don't think 28-35 is young for his time. To me, that's near middle age for that time. Especially near mid 30's.

    This is a common modern misconception about the past. 

    The only reason average ages seemed lower is because of high infant mortality rates, and indeed higher mortality among adults.

    But once a person got through those things they lived normal ages like we do today.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #212 on: November 03, 2025, 08:45:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 03, 2025, 07:54:52 AM
    :jester:
    Fact is, WE DON'T KNOW, no matter who we quote, or what anyone     speculates.
    We must respect historical oral tradition. As well as theological opinion, and because of the importance of who St. Joseph is, this touches on, if not is a part of theological discourse.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #213 on: November 03, 2025, 08:47:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 03, 2025, 08:22:24 AM
    Where's your proof?

    It's a rhetorical question, because there is no proof.  We simple don't know and can only speculate.

    There's historical tradition.

    It's not pure speculation.

    But even when there is speculation there's educated, informed speculation, and just pure idiotic, ignorant speculation. The latter comes in the form of people just stating his age, because thats what they like.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #214 on: November 03, 2025, 08:49:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 03, 2025, 08:27:33 AM
    Because we know historically Jєωιѕн women got married as young as 12, and the other ancient civilizations it was around 15. Since judae was under Roman occupation it makes sense she got married in her youth.

    Even in the middle ages before protestantism most gis got married by 19.

    It extremely unlikely and frankly foolish to believe that St Joseph was her age or even only a few years older as men take more time to develop, mature and become capable at doing their duties.

    Since many Saints have given Saint Joseph a decent 'middle' age that would put the age gap at ~15 or so years.

    When you take into account even what that theologian said about the Egyptians needing to revere him, we can push that higher.


    Lets stop trying to impose our preferences on the thing. We moderns are always doing that. We have to extrapolate and put ourselves more in the time and be rigidly self critical of our own preferences.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #215 on: November 03, 2025, 09:17:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 03, 2025, 08:49:57 AM

    Lets stop trying to impose our preferences on the thing. We moderns are always doing that. We have to extrapolate and put ourselves more in the time and be rigidly self critical of our own preferences.
    Agreed.

    The Bible does not specify the age gap between Our Lady and St Joseph.
    The Church does not have doctrine on the age gap between them, either.
    It is pointless for anyone to speculate, saint or not.

    The fact remains, God told us in Proverbs, that if we marry, to marry young.  God also told us that giving one's virginity to Our Lord is a higher calling.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #216 on: November 03, 2025, 10:07:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 03, 2025, 09:17:19 AM
    Agreed.

    The Bible does not specify the age gap between Our Lady and St Joseph.
    The Church does not have doctrine on the age gap between them, either.
    It is pointless for anyone to speculate, saint or not.

    The fact remains, God told us in Proverbs, that if we marry, to marry young.  God also told us that giving one's virginity to Our Lord is a higher calling.

    Lol, you're going to far in the other direction.

    I was referring to the imposing of precise numbers and the imposing of our preference for St. Joseph being young. Because its less counter cultural.


    While we dont know the exact age, it is not at all pointless. Nor is it speculation. 

    There is historical tradition and there is suitability (in the theological sense.) IE what is more perfect.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #217 on: November 03, 2025, 10:10:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 03, 2025, 08:45:06 AM
    We must respect historical oral tradition. As well as theological opinion, and because of the importance of who St. Joseph is, this touches on, if not is a part of theological discourse.
    Proof of "historical oral tradition", please?
    Theological opinion is still just opinion.

    The Protoevangelium of James, written around 140-170AD, quotes St. Joseph as saying he's an "old man" and Our Lady a "young girl".  
    This is pretty old historical tradition and has been influential in shaping Catholic traditions and beliefs.
    However, it was condemned as a canonical text and excluded from the biblical canon by Church officials and councils because it contains legendary material and artistic embellishments not supported by canonical scripture.

    So, be careful what you call on as historical tradition.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #218 on: November 03, 2025, 10:24:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 03, 2025, 10:10:03 AM
    Proof of "historical oral tradition", please?
    Theological opinion is still just opinion.

    The Protoevangelium of James, written around 140-170AD, quotes St. Joseph as saying he's an "old man" and Our Lady a "young girl". 
    This is pretty old historical tradition and has been influential in shaping Catholic traditions and beliefs.
    However, it was condemned as a canonical text and excluded from the biblical canon by Church officials and councils because it contains legendary material and artistic embellishments not supported by canonical scripture.

    So, be careful what you call on as historical tradition.
    The article cited earlier cites medieval scholastics and then there are references in the Fathers. Just look it up yourself.

    Being not in canon does not mean something is condemned. This is grade A pre school ignorance on Church history and Tradition.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #219 on: November 03, 2025, 10:40:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 03, 2025, 10:24:05 AM
    The article cited earlier cites medieval scholastics and then there are references in the Fathers. Just look it up yourself.

    I read it.  Opinion and speculation.  

    Being not in canon does not mean something is condemned. 

    That's not what I said. What I said was, "it was condemned as a canonical text and excluded from the biblical canon by Church officials and councils because it contains legendary material and artistic embellishments not supported by canonical scripture." 

    Let's not twist things, eh?
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #220 on: November 03, 2025, 10:40:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 03, 2025, 10:10:03 AM
    Proof of "historical oral tradition", please?
    Theological opinion is still just opinion.

    The Protoevangelium of James, written around 140-170AD, quotes St. Joseph as saying he's an "old man" and Our Lady a "young girl". 
    This is pretty old historical tradition and has been influential in shaping Catholic traditions and beliefs.
    However, it was condemned as a canonical text and excluded from the biblical canon by Church officials and councils because it contains legendary material and artistic embellishments not supported by canonical scripture.

    So, be careful what you call on as historical tradition.

    The Apostles would've known.  Their successors, the Church Fathers, would've known.  Most early Christians would've known.  It's called Tradition; it's information passed down through history.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #221 on: November 03, 2025, 10:41:39 AM »
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    • I find this discussion about Mary and Joseph's age off topic.  If they are the ideal marriage then women marry someone who can protect them and then the children come without any marital act. Their marriage was very unique.

    I think men should focus on setting up a house for a wife to run, but if God puts someone in the man's path to marry he shouldn't say "Oh. Not now. I am only 23".  I think we need to pay more attention to God's plan for each individual than to come up with generalities that work for some and make others extremely scrupulous.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #222 on: November 03, 2025, 10:55:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on November 03, 2025, 10:41:39 AM
    I find this discussion about Mary and Joseph's age off topic.  If they are the ideal marriage then women marry someone who can protect them and then the children come without any marital act. Their marriage was very unique.

    I think men should focus on setting up a house for a wife to run, but if God puts someone in the man's path to marry he shouldn't say "Oh. Not now. I am only 23".  I think we need to pay more attention to God's plan for each individual than to come up with generalities that work for some and make others extremely scrupulous.

    On the contrary its precisely on topic.

    Woman should not delay at all for marriage, and the Blessed Mother gives girls that example.

    Men on the contrary should delay as long as they can, unless they are burning with lust. Because they make better leaders the more seasoned they are. And in this, St. Joseph gives the example.

    The ideal does not mean what is normally practiced. Most Catholics did not reach this ideal. But its still the ideal.

    I find attempts to undermine this ideal perverse.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #223 on: November 03, 2025, 11:25:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 03, 2025, 10:55:57 AM
    On the contrary its precisely on topic.

    Woman should not delay at all for marriage, and the Blessed Mother gives girls that example.

    Men on the contrary should delay as long as they can, unless they are burning with lust. Because they make better leaders the more seasoned they are. And in this, St. Joseph gives the example.

    The ideal does not mean what is normally practiced. Most Catholics did not reach this ideal. But its still the ideal.

    I find attempts to undermine this ideal perverse.
    Put this way makes the most sense, I was not intending to undermine the ideal, but I was just recognizing that most humans are prone to sin and if the man is burning with lust then that needs to be taken into consideration.  We have to talk about the ideal and reality together.

    If a husband and wife show the example of a good marriage, then the sons of that marriage naturally build up their house before even looking for a spouse.  I can't speak for families with daughters, but i have noticed that girls at age 12 start coming up an image of the man they would like to marry.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Let's talk about age gaps
    « Reply #224 on: November 03, 2025, 11:30:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on November 03, 2025, 10:41:39 AM
    I find this discussion about Mary and Joseph's age off topic.  If they are the ideal marriage then women marry someone who can protect them and then the children come without any marital act. Their marriage was very unique.

    I think men should focus on setting up a house for a wife to run, but if God puts someone in the man's path to marry he shouldn't say "Oh. Not now. I am only 23".  I think we need to pay more attention to God's plan for each individual than to come up with generalities that work for some and make others extremely scrupulous.
    Exactly!
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