Firstly, sugar is bad for you.
What do you consider an age gap?
How much is too much?
Are you male or female?
Roughly how old are you?
Seems like fodder for a poll. Why not create one?
Personally I think mainly older women get upset with age gaps because their 'clock' is ticking. While some younger men get upset because they can't compete.
I consider an age gap to be 5+ years
No age gap is too much as the purpose of married is to have children. So it's not about the age gap but fertility.
I am me.
In my 20s.
I keep seeing age gaps demonised online yet the same people have no issue with Elvis Presley and Priscilla Beaulieu having a 10 yr gap (14 and 24) because Elvis 'respected' her and she didn't want sex before marriage so he wasn't a 'groomer'. Yet some members of this forum have vilified men for wanting something similar (or rather something more Holy). So are these secular people more rational than some trad Catholics? Or are they just making an exception because of their personal like of Elvis since he was rich, tall, handsome and famous?
Also on the wedding day they are called the Bride and Brides-GROOM, so why is the term 'groomer' used as an attack? Seems like a hidden attack on marriage if you ask me.
Not a criticism, by the way, but I've lost count of the number of threads created touching this subject. I'm genuinely curious as to why this topic is such an obsession for you?
My great-great grandfather was widowed at age 53 in 1886. He had 11 children and was a farmer. He married a spinster less than a year later and they had 3 children. She raised all 14 kids and they remained married til her death in 1922. The age difference was 20 years exactly. Someone explain using Catholic moral theology why this is wrong?It is not wrong. Who told you it is wrong?
people have no issue with Elvis Presley and Priscilla Beaulieu having a 10 yr gap (14 and 24) because Elvis 'respected' her and she didn't want sex before marriage so he wasn't a 'groomer'.
Presilla is docuмented as saying Elvis quickly lost interest in her sɛҳuąƖly after she became pregnant with Lisa Marie.The OP obviously hasn't read the book written by Priscilla. He wasn't grooming her... he sɛҳuąƖly teased her mercilessly. Neither were innocent or moral (by her own admission: this was not a judgement.)
The OP obviously hasn't read the book written by Priscilla. He wasn't grooming her... he sɛҳuąƖly teased her mercilessly. Neither were innocent or moral (by her own admission: this was not a judgement.)OP is clearly ignorant and got his OPINION from ignorant people on the internet.
Sorry for derailing.
Not a criticism, by the way, but I've lost count of the number of threads created touching this subject. I'm genuinely curious as to why this topic is such an obsession for you?I wager that OP is just coping/ventig. So he comes to CopeINFO/CathTherapy to rant. Most likely the Jєωιѕн propaganda is getting to him so he feels the need to reinforce his beliefs by posting about it.
And the Lord God said: It is not good for man to be alone: let us make him a help like unto himself.Frankly there a probably more men and even woman who are struggling with temptations and really should be getting married but for whatever reason are unable to get married (thanks jews) but won't voice it on here. Since OP is posting anonymously I guess he has no one to talk to about this in person or fears his local community orchestrating him (whether his concerns are valid or not is another thing but many trads did take the covid shot so I guess it is somewhat reasonable to expect some trads to be against an age gap).
I wager that OP is just coping/ventig. So he comes to CopeINFO/CathTherapy to rant. Most likely the Jєωιѕн propaganda is getting to him so he feels the need to reinforce his beliefs by posting about it.
As for why OP is obsessed with woman (in particular young ladies) the book of genesis gives us the answer.Frankly there a probably more men and even woman who are struggling with temptations and really should be getting married but for whatever reason are unable to get married (thanks jews) but won't voice it on here. Since OP is posting anonymously I guess he has no one to talk to about this in person or fears his local community orchestrating him (whether his concerns are valid or not is another thing but many trads did take the covid shot so I guess it is somewhat reasonable to expect some trads to be against an age gap).
So yeah, if you've seen those articles on male loneliness and read genesis you will quickly realise that men do not care about the company of other men for the most part, a guy having male friends or a community isn't going to 'fix' his loneliness, only a companion will fix this issue. Clearly though OP wants a teenage companion based off his comments.
I wager that OP is just coping/ventig. So he comes to CopeINFO/CathTherapy to rant. Most likely the Jєωιѕн propaganda is getting to him so he feels the need to reinforce his beliefs by posting about it.You missed the opportunity to say CRIOXinfo lol
As for why OP is obsessed with woman (in particular young ladies) the book of genesis gives us the answer.Frankly there a probably more men and even woman who are struggling with temptations and really should be getting married but for whatever reason are unable to get married (thanks jews) but won't voice it on here. Since OP is posting anonymously I guess he has no one to talk to about this in person or fears his local community orchestrating him (whether his concerns are valid or not is another thing but many trads did take the covid shot so I guess it is somewhat reasonable to expect some trads to be against an age gap).
So yeah, if you've seen those articles on male loneliness and read genesis you will quickly realise that men do not care about the company of other men for the most part, a guy having male friends or a community isn't going to 'fix' his loneliness, only a companion will fix this issue. Clearly though OP wants a teenage companion based off his comments.
It seems to me many men are looking for a woman with the mentality and wisdom of a 60 year old in a 16 year body. Unfortunately, there is no such creature.reported for immodesty
Song is for 18+, but it sure makes the point!
https://youtu.be/OOgd9hitEAE?si=wORtH8L19OhSiFph
reported for immodestyI gave a warning. Sorry if you’re offended.
Not the op here.:confused: I think you might have misread some post(s) in the thread. No big deal, pretty much everyone here has done it some time or other. :cowboy:
WHO IS THE BOOMER THAT IS CLAIMING AGE GAPS IS A Jєωιѕн CONSPIRACY!!!
Get off this forum !
Good grief. The Holy family the example of families had an almost 20 year age gap, at a minimum, and people have the audiacity to come on here and criticize it.
This is typical micro controlling boomer/liberal thinking.
and who says the op is a man eh!!! to be honest I think it might be a woman....
It seems to me many men are looking for a woman with the mentality and wisdom of a 60 year old in a 16 year body. Unfortunately, there is no such creature.
Song is for 18+, but it sure makes the point!
https://youtu.be/OOgd9hitEAE?si=wORtH8L19OhSiFph
reported for immodestyFWIW, I thought it was humorous. It is inappropriate but, honestly, with some of the crap that gets posted on CI, I have a hard time getting excited over seeing stuff in a video that's less immodest than what I see in an average trip to Wal-Mart.
FWIW, I thought it was humorous. It is inappropriate but, honestly, with some of the crap that gets posted on CI, I have a hard time getting excited over seeing stuff in a video that's less immodest than what I see in an average trip to Wal-Mart.I second the comment about Walmart. I was there on Saturday and saw a young couple who may as well have been naked. They’d have been thrown out of the redneck barbecue for indecency. Think, string bikini top, Daisy Dukes, Speedo, cut-off mesh muscle shirt, and flip flops. But maybe it was okay because of the tattoos. Do they count for clothes, now?
Not the op here.Secular people have never been more against age gap than ever before... This is due to Jєωιѕн propaganda.
WHO IS THE BOOMER THAT IS CLAIMING AGE GAPS IS A Jєωιѕн CONSPIRACY!!!
Get off this forum !
Good grief. The Holy family the example of families had an almost 20 year age gap, at a minimum, and people have the audiacity to come on here and criticize it.
This is typical micro controlling boomer/liberal thinking.
and who says the op is a man eh!!! to be honest I think it might be a woman....
FWIW, I thought it was humorous. It is inappropriate but, honestly, with some of the crap that gets posted on CI, I have a hard time getting excited over seeing stuff in a video that's less immodest than what I see in an average trip to Wal-Mart.Nah you still shouldn't post it.
Nah you still shouldn't post it.
reported for immodestyyou missed the memo: don't quote the post you're reporting
you missed the memo: don't quote the post you're reportingsorry i’ll try to remember
you will quickly realise that men do not care about the company of other men for the most part, a guy having male friends or a community isn't going to 'fix' his loneliness, only a companion will fix this issue.Well-adjusted men have male friends. Those who are incapable of doing so will also be incapable of attracting a woman. Women are social and part of married life is getting together with other couples and, when babies come along, the familes get together. This is normal human life.
Well-adjusted men have male friends. Those who are incapable of doing so will also be incapable of attracting a woman. Women are social and part of married life is getting together with other couples and, when babies come along, the familes get together. This is normal human life.If you don't have a family then you don't have that reason to get together. Men tend to be less social in general than woman, so it's not surprising that so e men are not super close or interested in being close with other men unless they have a reason to.
If you don't have a family then you don't have that reason to get together. Men tend to be less social in general than woman, so it's not surprising that so e men are not super close or interested in being close with other men unless they have a reason to.It’s true in much of the higher species of the animal kingdom. The females hang together with the young and males go solo until it’s mating season. Some animals travel as mixed groups with a male leader, the remaining males being still under their mother’s care. In a few cases where the group is matriarchal, for example, elephants, the fully grown males go solo until mating season. In creatures that mate for life, it is couples that flock together with other couples.
It’s true in much of the higher species of the animal kingdom. The females hang together with the young and males go solo until it’s mating season. Some animals travel as mixed groups with a male leader, the remaining males being still under their mother’s care. In a few cases where the group is matriarchal, for example, elephants, the fully grown males go solo until mating season. In creatures that mate for life, it is couples that flock together with other couples.
I noticed a few presidents of Brazil were 20+ to around 30 years age difference with their wives, whether or not valid. I wonder if it is something of a thing over there that is not frowned upon. Nevertheless, it all depends on the situation.Western nations are brainwashed on age gaps due to jews, freemasons and protestants and feminism. Asian countries this is not an issue.
Firstly, sugar is bad for you.I think you are desperately attempting to justify some imperfections in your nature. I suggest you speak with a priest about this topic.
What do you consider an age gap?
How much is too much?
Are you male or female?
Roughly how old are you?
Personally I think mainly older women get upset with age gaps because their 'clock' is ticking. While some younger men get upset because they can't compete.
I consider an age gap to be 5+ years
No age gap is too much as the purpose of married is to have children. So it's not about the age gap but fertility.
I am me.
In my 20s.
I keep seeing age gaps demonised online yet the same people have no issue with Elvis Presley and Priscilla Beaulieu having a 10 yr gap (14 and 24) because Elvis 'respected' her and she didn't want sex before marriage so he wasn't a 'groomer'. Yet some members of this forum have vilified men for wanting something similar (or rather something more Holy). So are these secular people more rational than some trad Catholics? Or are they just making an exception because of their personal like of Elvis since he was rich, tall, handsome and famous?
Also on the wedding day they are called the Bride and Brides-GROOM, so why is the term 'groomer' used as an attack? Seems like a hidden attack on marriage if you ask me.
I think you are desperately attempting to justify some imperfections in your nature. I suggest you speak with a priest about this topic.Indeed. This topic was discussed ad nauseam in the other thread the OP created about whether men really prefer teenage girls. It’s time for him to talk to a traditional priest rather than try to get support for his point of view on a forum.
Indeed. This topic was discussed ad nauseam in the other thread the OP created about whether men really prefer teenage girls. It’s time for him to talk to a traditional priest rather than try to get support for his point of view on a forum.And what is a priest going to tell him?
We don’t know, so why not encourage him to ask? Are you afraid of what the priest will tell him?I think you need to mind your own business. Not the OP.
And what is a priest going to tell him?Yes that's a good question. If the priest thinks women should get married in their 20s he's not going to like what the priest has to say. For reference my parents and grandparents wives all got married around ~18 to men 6-9 yrs older than them, so if OP wants an ~18 yr old I see no problem.
You can be sure the priest won’t say a 12 year old is a-ok. ;)Obviously as the law of the Church is 14 youngest... I don't think OP is interested in 12 yr olds. ~17 is usually what most guys like.
Okay, on the other thread there was discussion about 12 years old being the limit historically. A few thought that was reasonable for this day and age.I'm guessing you are a woman? Discussing the limit is not the same as saying you are attracted to 12 yr olds. Plus admiring a young girls beauty and wanting to provide and support them is not the same as sɛҳuąƖ attraction. Most 12 yr olds are cute but not sexy if that makes sense
I'm guessing you are a woman? Discussing the limit is not the same as saying you are attracted to 12 yr olds. Plus admiring a young girls beauty and wanting to provide and support them is not the same as sɛҳuąƖ attraction. Most 12 yr olds are cute but not sexy if that makes senseI will add 'reasonable' as some girls start developing around 6-8 while most start about 12. It's not like human biology has changed in the last 4000 years, just Jєωιѕн tricks.
I think you are desperately attempting to justify some imperfections in your nature. I suggest you speak with a priest about this topic.Yes.
Indeed. This topic was discussed ad nauseam in the other thread the OP created about whether men really prefer teenage girls. It’s time for him to talk to a traditional priest rather than try to get support for his point of view on a forum.Yes.
Obviously as the law of the Church is 14 youngest... I don't think OP is interested in 12 yr olds. ~17 is usually what most guys like."What most guys like" as in sɛҳuąƖ attraction or as in a life-long partner who will be the mature Traditional Catholic mother of his children?
"What most guys like" as in sɛҳuąƖ attraction or as in a life-long partner who will be the mature Traditional Catholic mother of his children?
"What most guys like" as in sɛҳuąƖ attraction or as in a life-long partner who will be the mature Traditional Catholic mother of his children?Both. Younger women have more energy for their children and husband, have less expections and experiences and entitlement, are more fertile, less jaded/bitter, cuter and less brainwashed. Economy pushes back marriage for men, education is what pushed back marriage for women.
Seriously, how are there any people who want to put limits on this when the Holy Family had a 20 year age gap AT THE VERY LEAST.I don’t understand why people keep bringing up the Holy Family. Joseph and Mary did not have a sɛҳuąƖ relationship. Also, on the flip side, a 37 year old man will be 67 when his 14 year old bride is no longer fertile. The baby they could have at age 10 will have a father that is 77. Do you think that’s ideal? If an energetic mother is important, isn’t the same true for a father?
Some Fathers even thought he was an old man.
You people who try to promote this closeness in age as being the ideal are either boomers, Jews or just plain stupid.
The IDEAL is a large age gap. For what marriage is and what its meant to do. Namely : SERVE THE CHURCH AND SOCIETY.
If you think otherwise in good faith, you have been brainwashed by the inversion of the marriage ends that has taken place over the last 200 years, and in the Church since Vatican II.
I don’t understand why people keep bringing up the Holy Family. Joseph and Mary did not have a sɛҳuąƖ relationship. Also, on the flip side, a 37 year old man will be 67 when his 14 year old bride is no longer fertile. The baby they could have at age 10 will have a father that is 77. Do you think that’s ideal? If an energetic mother is important, isn’t the same true for a father?That was me, The Mrs
I can give similar reasons (to avoiding older women) to why I wouldn't recommend older men (like 10+ years) as a first choice. Less likely to be a virgin, they'll have more sɛҳuąƖ experience, more jaded/bitter with women (if they've been looking for long), they'd die earlier and i'd be alone for a longer time. And men closer to my age are more physically attractive than a much older man. And they have more energy and motivation compared to an older man.That was me.
It seems to me that some are placing such incredible importance of marrying a young teenager. Said teen wife will not always be beautiful. Just want to make sure that’s a reality that the OP understands as sɛҳuąƖ attraction seems of very high importance to him. By the way, I think 18 is okay.Beauty is only a secondary reason to marrying young. The primary would be two things - health/fertility and less corruption by the world. The less dating experience a woman has, the better the marriage.
I don’t understand why people keep bringing up the Holy Family. Joseph and Mary did not have a sɛҳuąƖ relationship. Also, on the flip side, a 37 year old man will be 67 when his 14 year old bride is no longer fertile. The baby they could have at age 10 will have a father that is 77. Do you think that’s ideal? If an energetic mother is important, isn’t the same true for a father?And I dont know why people keep denying the example of the Holy Family!!!!
That was me, The Mrs
Matthew, I see your point, but aren’t we talking about ideal situations here? I just had a baby at age 45. I am pretty healthy and we have a large family, even though I got married later. My husband is 8 years older than me. I was 27 when we got married. He’s 53, with a baby. So when baby is 18, he will be 71.
It seems to me that some are placing such incredible importance of marrying a young teenager. Said teen wife will not always be beautiful. Just want to make sure that’s a reality that the OP understands as sɛҳuąƖ attraction seems of very high importance to him. By the way, I think 18 is okay.
Just in case one wonders, I’m not coping, I live in the world of reality. I know I am way past my peak and recognize that’s the way it is. I have been told I look like I’m in my early 30s. I eat healthy. Also not in the least bit bothered when my husband comments on the beauty of prospective girls at our chapel for our older boy. I too appreciate the beauty of teenage girls as they are at the peak of their attractiveness, it’s God’s creation. I happily trade in my looks for my life experience and richness of having a good Catholic husband and many children. I’m very secure in my relationship with my husband, so no cope here.
My husband is also 8-9 years older and I couldn’t fathom marrying someone 10+ years older. My parents are 10 years apart (dad is older). Maybe my max is 15. I wouldn’t want to marry someone who could be my dad/same age as my parents. If the economy is far worse than it is now, maybe women would be marrying older men.Thats because you as a woman look around you, rather than think with principles.
I can give similar reasons (to avoiding older women) to why I wouldn't recommend older men (like 10+ years) as a first choice. Less likely to be a virgin, they'll have more sɛҳuąƖ experience, more jaded/bitter with women (if they've been looking for long), they'd die earlier and i'd be alone for a longer time. And men closer to my age are more physically attractive than a much older man. And they have more energy and motivation compared to an older man.Marriage is about physical energy argument again.
And I dont know why people keep denying the example of the Holy Family!!!!These people are way too worldly and material minded.
Its crazy!
Why would GOD ALMIGHTY give us the EXAMPLE OF EXAMPLES for the family! And then want us to go the opposite way!
And no the same is not true for a Father. You clearly dont know anyone who is in a an age gap marriage. I do. And it works better than other marriages.
Both. Younger women have more energy for their children and husband, have less expections and experiences and entitlement, are more fertile, less jaded/bitter, cuter and less brainwashed. Economy pushes back marriage for men, education is what pushed back marriage for women.Were you the person bringing “energy” into this for the woman then later arguing that it doesn’t matter for the man? My husband works harder now that we have 9 kids than he did when we had 1. He needs his health and energy to provide for our family well and the obligations only increase with each addition to the family.
Thats because you as a woman look around you, rather than think with principles.I don't see age gaps having more benefits than a marriage where both spouses are similar in age. It's just something that happens when the economy is so bad. Or the woman is married off to escape poverty.
All women do that. Its impossible to get out of you.
Thats why you need to be lead. You see a society now where age gaps are held in disdain. But in 50 years that will have changed, and the women then will be saying something different.
I don’t understand why people keep bringing up the Holy Family. Joseph and Mary did not have a sɛҳuąƖ relationship. Also, on the flip side, a 37 year old man will be 67 when his 14 year old bride is no longer fertile. The baby they could have at age 10 will have a father that is 77. Do you think that’s ideal? If an energetic mother is important, isn’t the same true for a father?My dad is 70 and he is very active. Sure he has problems like arthritis but he is always keeping busy doing something like gardening etc.
Yes we are talking about ideals! Is being energetic the sum of marriage? Honestly, when you hear people talk like this it makes me wonder what they think life is about at all.Is a father supposed to act in such a manner? I understand he should have an active participation in the children's life but should he also has a air of authority and graveness rather than putting himself on the level of his children? How should a man play with his offspring? Should he even be playing at all?
Well so much for wisdom of year, guiding the wife in her natural female weakness. Being a steady hand... etc. etc. But no! So long as you can run around a baseball field, then that is what makes you a good dad!
I don't see age gaps having more benefits than a marriage where both spouses are similar in age. It's just something that happens when the economy is so bad. Or the woman is married off to escape poverty.Actually historically it was always the norm for the male to be older. An age gap hells the woman understand her place better, being a similar age is dangerous due to modern brainwashing of "equality".
I don't see age gaps having more benefits than a marriage where both spouses are similar in age. It's just something that happens when the economy is so bad. Or the woman is married off to escape poverty.You keep bringing things back to what suits YOU!
Were you the person bringing “energy” into this for the woman then later arguing that it doesn’t matter for the man? My husband works harder now that we have 9 kids than he did when we had 1. He needs his health and energy to provide for our family well and the obligations only increase with each addition to the family.If they are all under 18 then yes thats the hardest part. After that, they start earning and can bring money into the house.
You keep bringing things back to what suits YOU!By putting this topic in the main forum, it seems the OP wants the opinions of women but doesn’t like them.
To what suits the woman.
Marriage is about physical energy argument again.Come now, let’s discuss honestly shall we? Stop gaslighting. She is discussing it as a factor, not as the one and ONLY defining factor.
You people are NUTS
You keep bringing things back to what suits YOU!Yes. Most women have no idea (nor care) what works best for men.
To what suits the woman.
I don't see age gaps having more benefits than a marriage where both spouses are similar in age. It's just something that happens when the economy is so bad. Or the woman is married off to escape poverty.Do age gaps have substantially less benefits? I’ve yet to see any major issues. The main argument has been personal preference.
Actually historically it was always the norm for the male to be older. An age gap hells the woman understand her place better, being a similar age is dangerous due to modern brainwashing of "equality".This makes no sense. The younger the woman, the worse the brainwashing.
Yes. Most women have no idea (nor care) what works best for men.Traditional Catholic women understand that we are helpmates to our husbands. We care deeply for our husbands and of course we care about their well-being and their salvation. Since you are presumably seeking a Traditional Catholic woman as a spouse, why do you even care about "most women"?
Traditional Catholic women understand that we are helpmates to our husbands. We care deeply for our husbands and of course we care about their well-being and their salvation. Since you are presumably seeking a Traditional Catholic woman as a spouse, why do you even care about "most women"?Because I care about society and all catholic families. I don’t have the luxury of the female mindset, which is focused on their personal situation alone. Females are designed to be self-focused. Males are designed to be general-focused, because it’s their calling to govern, which requires them to make decisions for personal benefit AND ALSO balanced for societal benefit.
By putting this topic in the main forum, it seems the OP wants the opinions of women but doesn’t like them.lol. I'm not the OP. But you deliberately have got it wrong... again.Its not about not wanting the opinions of women. But not wanting opinions that simply encourage our worldly revolutionary culture.
Come now, let’s discuss honestly shall we? Stop gaslighting. She is discussing it as a factor, not as the one and ONLY defining factor.Whats NUTS is the PRIORITIZING of the thing.
Do age gaps have substantially less benefits? I’ve yet to see any major issues. The main argument has been personal preference.BINGO. The women arguing for this are women who are in marriages or from marriages where there was no age differences. I would be willing to wager that if they even did see age gap marriages in action, they were not very good ones.
The reality is God helps two people find each other. The age gap is only an issue if the parents of the girl teach her that it matters and is something to be avoided.EXACTLY. Well said. Those of us in the remnant Catholic faithful of the resistance, need to banish this worldliness from our thinking. Especially when it comes to helping our daughters find husbands.
There are so many other things to consider in finding someone to marry, why does the age gap continue to be some sort of litmus test?
Traditional Catholic women understand that we are helpmates to our husbands. We care deeply for our husbands and of course we care about their well-being and their salvation. Since you are presumably seeking a Traditional Catholic woman as a spouse, why do you even care about "most women"?I am not the person you are quoting. But presuming it is a man, he is just making a generalization. Saying the quiet part out loud. That all good men know, but never say to the face of ladies.
lol. I'm not the OP. But you deliberately have got it wrong... again.Its not about not wanting the opinions of women. But not wanting opinions that simply encourage our worldly revolutionary culture.That’s your opinion, that my opinion encourages a revolutionary culture.
The single guy pushing forty who brags about having a non-commital five-year relationship with a much younger woman tossed a grenade and you all are pushing each other out of the way to see who can jump on it first.
That’s your opinion, that my opinion encourages a revolutionary culture.
Yes. Most women have no idea (nor care) what works best for men.What works best for catholic men, works best for families, which works best for society.
Because I care about society and all catholic families. I don’t have the luxury of the female mindset, which is focused on their personal situation alone. Females are designed to be self-focused. Males are designed to be general-focused, because it’s their calling to govern, which requires them to make decisions for personal benefit AND ALSO balanced for societal benefit.I don't disagree what you are trying to say. I just hope for a little more clarification.
Women generally make decisions based on family/friends’ opinions. So if “most Trad women” are liberal, then even if you find one that is not, they will become liberal by osmosis. Time has proven that women are corrupted by society far more than men, who are usually corrupted due to laziness and perversion.
My opinion. Which conforms to the truth.I pity the poor woman who agrees to marry you. If that ever happens.
And your stubbornness just confirms in my mind why, generally speaking, women should not be online speaking publicly.
I don't disagree what you are trying to say. I just hope for a little more clarification.Self includes their children/family.
What do you mean when you say women are designed to be self-focused? Women are designed to raise children, how is that self-focused?
The single guy pushing forty who brags about having a non-commital five-year relationship with a much younger woman tossed a grenade and you all are pushing each other out of the way to see who can jump on it first.??? Wasn't that Criox/WWCSG?
Self includes their children/family.Thanks. I would add friends.
I pity the poor woman who agrees to marry you. If that ever happens.Or maybe I just have a wife who isnt a witch.
Abraham was 10 years older than Sarah (Genesis 17:17), and after the death of Sarah at the age of 127, Abraham married Keturah and fathered six children with her (Genesis 21:5,23:1-2,25:1-2)Now personally I don't believe that Jєωιѕн source claiming Joseph was married once before but that is a completely different topic.
Isaac was 40 when he married Rebekah, and 60 when Rebekah bore Esau and Jacob (Genesis 25:19-26)
Esau was 40 when he married two Hittite women (Genesis 26:34-35) - although it should be noted that Esau is not held up as a Biblical role model
Jacob was about 80 when he married Leah (various passages)
Moses was over 40 when he fathered two sons (Acts 7:22-29)
David was 30 when he began his reign as king of Israel, afterwards taking many wives (2 Samuel 5:4)
Zechariah and Elizabeth were "getting on in years" when John the Baptist was born (Luke 1:5-7)
And from some other, extra-Biblical sources, a similar story:
According to Jєωιѕн midrash, Ruth was 40 and Boaz was 80 when they married
According to apocryphal sources, Joseph was 40 when he took his first wife, who died when he was about 89 - after which point, he took as his second wife the Virgin Mary
Honorable mention: even in modern times, a couple of Popes were born to fathers of advanced age:
Pope St. Pius X was born in 1835 to Giovanni Battista Sarto, ~43, and Margherita Sanson, ~22 (source)
Pope Benedict XVI was born in 1927 to Joseph Ratzinger, Sr.,50, and his wife Maria, 43
Imagine how the world would be reacting if she was 17 and him 37. Same age gap, but she would just be a lot more attractive, her face isn't very good without makeup (she looks VERY old at 27) but she has large breasts (she claims to be natural but who knows if they are fake).Another source
(https://i.imgur.com/ZAiXJ6b.png)
I found this posts elsewhere on Biblical and Catholic age gaps.
Now personally I don't believe that Jєωιѕн source claiming Joseph was married once before but that is a completely different topic.
Another sourceThen why don't you get off the internet and get your home/finances ready for your future bride and family?
Giovanni Battista was 41 years old when he married, the 13th February 1833, Margherita Sanson (1813-1894): the bride was only 20, and their marriage was consecrated by the chaplain Father Pier Paolo Pellizzari (S.Vito d’Asolo, 1807-Vallà, 1875).
20 is still a few years younger than 22. If woman want a large family, and fathers want someone reliable for their daughters, older men are the best option. That's simply how it was always done when society didn't have "safety nets" (many of which are bad like encouraging fornication and fathering of bastards) as the man needed to be a stable member of society.
Then why don't you get off the internet and get your home/finances ready for your future bride and family?:facepalm: More feminism/male-hating in action.
:facepalm: More feminism/male-hating in action.Not the author of "Then why don't you get off the internet and get your home/finances ready for your future bride and family?", but running low on patience with hyperfixation does not (=/=) equal "feminism/male-hating".
Not the author of "Then why don't you get off the internet and get your home/finances ready for your future bride and family?", but running low on patience with hyperfixation does not (=/=) equal "feminism/male-hating".I guess OP is just bored/struggling with temptation while he "prepares" himself. Between work, eating and sleep there isn't too much for someone to do until they have their own house.
Just food for thought: often, a particular criticism is not comprehensively valid or fair but it is relatively rare that it has absolutely zero merit.
Not the author of "Then why don't you get off the internet and get your home/finances ready for your future bride and family?", but running low on patience with hyperfixation does not (=/=) equal "feminism/male-hating".The comment was an ad hominem and had nothing to do with the poster.
Just food for thought: often, a particular criticism is not comprehensively valid or fair but it is relatively rare that it has absolutely zero merit.
I guess OP is just bored/struggling with temptation while he "prepares" himself. Between work, eating and sleep there isn't too much for someone to do until they have their own house.One would hope that all of us fill any open slots with spiritual and corporal works of mercy -eh?
Is he right? Are men the prize when it comes to marriage?So secular men think they are the prize, and secular women think they are the prize? The problem is that when you come at coupling as who is the prize, then no one wins. It is just a superficial measurement that are competitive, Godless society thinks is important. It is not. Love of God is the most important measurement in finding a spouse.
(https://i.imgur.com/BCvzTFx.png)
So secular men think they are the prize, and secular women think they are the prize? The problem is that when you come at coupling as who is the prize, then no one wins. It is just a superficial measurement that are competitive, Godless society thinks is important. It is not. Love of God is the most important measurement in finding a spouse.Men are the prize because they initiate courting, the proposal, the marriage, mating and children. Men are responsible for taking care of the family - protection, security, and religious instruction. Women are helpmates. It’s how God designed it. Modern women have inverted God’s hierarchy.
Men are the prize because they initiate courting, the proposal, the marriage, mating and children. Men are responsible for taking care of the family - protection, security, and religious instruction. Women are helpmates. It’s how God designed it. Modern women have inverted God’s hierarchy.If men are doing all the work, shouldn't they win a prize? The prize analogy makes no sense.
What you describe above ignores God’s authority and the special graces He gives to the husband/father alone.
So secular men think they are the prize, and secular women think they are the prize? The problem is that when you come at coupling as who is the prize, then no one wins. It is just a superficial measurement that are competitive, Godless society thinks is important. It is not. Love of God is the most important measurement in finding a spouse.Men have resources, more so when they hit their 30s. When women hit their 30s, their attractiveness goes down because of lower fertility, etc. If those 30-year old women were rejecting men in their 20s, the tables have turned for them when those same men are rejecting them for younger women. When women these days can make out like a bandit during the divorce, men have to be extra careful when choosing a wife.
If men are doing all the work, shouldn't they win a prize? The prize analogy makes no sense.Sure it does. You just want to accept the truth.
Sure it does. You just want to accept the truth.The truth? What truth are you talking about? What truth am I not accepting? I think any person who is single has it tough right now. Different people need different things. If a woman needs a man like you say, then why are nuns happy? If you are talking about secular women, then that is a whole different minefield. Is it possible to find a women who is not Catholic and convert her? Yes. I have seen many marriages start that way. Why do you care so much about secular society? Are you able to change it?
Men are perfectly happy being alone. Women are not. As God told Eve in the garden — Your desire shall be for your husband —. Men do not have the same desire for family that women do. Because men can take care of themselves, while women cannot.
The modern world has to brainwash women to be alone — you’re independent, you’re strong, you don’t need a man — meanwhile the opposite is true. Women need men way, way, way more than men need women. Modern women will be reminded of this when it’s too late.
The truth? What truth are you talking about? What truth am I not accepting? I think any person who is single has it tough right now. Different people need different things. If a woman needs a man like you say, then why are nuns happy? If you are talking about secular women, then that is a whole different minefield. Is it possible to find a women who is not Catholic and convert her? Yes. I have seen many marriages start that way. Why do you care so much about secular society? Are you able to change it?Oops.
My guess is that you are just continuing this conversation because you enjoy saying how wrong I am.
I don't think most men are perfectly happy being alone. Nobody really wants to be alone.
The truth? What truth are you talking about? What truth am I not accepting? I think any person who is single has it tough right now. Different people need different things. If a woman needs a man like you say, then why are nuns happy? If you are talking about secular women, then that is a whole different minefield. Is it possible to find a women who is not Catholic and convert her? Yes. I have seen many marriages start that way. Why do you care so much about secular society? Are you able to change it?Not related to what I said.
My guess is that you are just continuing this conversation because you enjoy saying how wrong I am.
I don't think most men are perfectly happy being alone. Nobody really wants to be alone.
The truth? What truth are you talking about? What truth am I not accepting?That women need men more, therefore men are the prize.
The truth? What truth are you talking about? What truth am I not accepting? I think any person who is single has it tough right now. Different people need different things. If a woman needs a man like you say, then why are nuns happy? If you are talking about secular women, then that is a whole different minefield. Is it possible to find a women who is not Catholic and convert her? Yes. I have seen many marriages start that way. Why do you care so much about secular society? Are you able to change it?
My guess is that you are just continuing this conversation because you enjoy saying how wrong I am.
I don't think most men are perfectly happy being alone. Nobody really wants to be alone.
That women need men more, therefore men are the prize.
Modern women (Trad and non) won’t accept reality, which is why they are so puffed up with pride.
A true woman (Trad or even pagan) who accepts her role as less than a man, both in the natural order and in the spiritual order, is acting like Our Lady, in showing her femininity.
And femininity is what makes a man want to die for his woman. But most women (even Trads) have fallen victim to the demonic deceptions of — happy wife, happy life — that most marriages are doomed, even Trads ones. Trad marriages may endure but they won’t be happy.
Because modern women constantly strive and yearn to act like men, not accepting their place in God’s order. You continue to ignore these truths.
The cope is strong in this oneI do not even know what this means.
That women need men more, therefore men are the prize.But do women look at men as if they are a prize? I am not sure you can answer that question, because you are not a woman.
Modern women (Trad and non) won’t accept reality, which is why they are so puffed up with pride.
A true woman (Trad or even pagan) who accepts her role as less than a man, both in the natural order and in the spiritual order, is acting like Our Lady, in showing her femininity.
And femininity is what makes a man want to die for his woman. But most women (even Trads) have fallen victim to the demonic deceptions of — happy wife, happy life — that most marriages are doomed, even Trads ones. Trad marriages may endure but they won’t be happy.
Because modern women constantly strive and yearn to act like men, not accepting their place in God’s order. You continue to ignore these truths.
That women need men moreYes this truth is found in Scripture because women are saved through childbirth. She absolutely can't do that without a man. And those who become spiritual mothers can't do that without men either because they require the Church.
Sure it does. You just want to accept the truth.Scripture literally says Adam was sad because he had no companion like the other animals and God said it is not good for man to be alone. As a young man I do not want to be alone, but I won't marry the wrong person either.
Men are perfectly happy being alone. Women are not. As God told Eve in the garden — Your desire shall be for your husband —. Men do not have the same desire for family that women do. Because men can take care of themselves, while women cannot.
The modern world has to brainwash women to be alone — you’re independent, you’re strong, you don’t need a man — meanwhile the opposite is true. Women need men way, way, way more than men need women. Modern women will be reminded of this when it’s too late.
Yes this truth is found in Scripture because women are saved through childbirth. She absolutely can't do that without a man. And those who become spiritual mothers can't do that without men either because they require the Church.This isn't true. Its the woman who also chooses. That's why secular woman choose the top % of men while ignoring the men who choose them.
Men on the other hand don't need women, but they do prefer to have one.
Women never choose. It's the man who chooses. She can only say yes or no. Even in a bad marriage the man is the one who chooses. She's along for the ride.
This isn't true. It’s the woman who also chooses. That's why secular woman choose the top % of men while ignoring the men who choose them.No even in modern dating, women chase after the top % of men, but these men aren’t marrying them.
Yes this truth is found in Scripture because women are saved through childbirth. She absolutely can't do that without a man. And those who become spiritual mothers can't do that without men either because they require the Church.Try being a man and put yourself out there, they get rejected FAR MORE than women do. In a bad marriage, the woman can file for divorce in our society. For men, it's "cheaper to keep her".
Men on the other hand don't need women, but they do prefer to have one.
Women never choose. It's the man who chooses. She can only say yes or no. Even in a bad marriage the man is the one who chooses. She's along for the ride.
Try being a man and put yourself out there, they get rejected FAR MORE than women do. In a bad marriage, the woman can file for divorce in our society. For men, it's "cheaper to keep her".Girls always used to get married in their teens, without (((education))) they are far less likely to divorce and become a brainwashed feminist. A slim teenage girl is very cute, just don't be fat ladies, and have long hair. A slim 20s woman is attractive but lacks the appeal of a young lady.
Girls always used to get married in their teens, without (((education))) they are far less likely to divorce and become a brainwashed feminist. A slim teenage girl is very cute, just don't be fat ladies, and have long hair. A slim 20s woman is attractive but lacks the appeal of a young lady.Also the younger lady is the more likely she is to be feminine. I've seen trad girls in their 20s with short hair, colored hair, clothes that don't cover the calves/forearms. Younger girls tend to be more humble, meek and quiet, unfortunately many lose this femininity as they grow if the parents don't educate them properly and allow Jєωιѕн indoctrination to get a hold of their minds.
Girls always used to get married in their teens, without (((education))) they are far less likely to divorce and become a brainwashed feminist. A slim teenage girl is very cute, just don't be fat ladies, and have long hair. A slim 20s woman is attractive but lacks the appeal of a young lady.As if a 20s woman isn't a young lady? People need to resume life in the real world.
As if a 20s woman isn't a young lady? People need to resume life in the real world.So true. It's sad to see young men so focused on looks which are ephemeral. Any person with sense knows that the person's character and a deep spiritual life are the only things that last. Looks fade quickly.
As if a 20s woman isn't a young lady? People need to resume life in the real world.By fertility once a woman is 23 she has started her decline, so indeed she isn't young.
So true. It's sad to see young men so focused on looks which are ephemeral. Any person with sense knows that the person's character and a deep spiritual life are the only things that last. Looks fade quickly.Younger girls are both more cute and more fertile, and this is the biology that God has created. Having offspring is the primary function of marriage, it's no surprise that woman at their most fertile are also the most appealing to men.
Younger girls are both more cute and more fertile, and this is the biology that God has created. Having offspring is the primary function of marriage, it's no surprise that woman at their most fertile are also the most appealing to men.Looks don't last. Males unable to accept that biological fact are the ones most likely to stray.
As if a 20s woman isn't a young lady? People need to resume life in the real world.Thank you for this post.
As if a 20s woman isn't a young lady? People need to resume life in the real world.Not by the standards of all of human history. A woman of 23 in most was considered an old maid.
So true. It's sad to see young men so focused on looks which are ephemeral. Any person with sense knows that the person's character and a deep spiritual life are the only things that last. Looks fade quickly.Thats also true. Men should search for what a woman keeps after her looks fade. however 23 is starting to push it.
Thank you for this post.
Based on what I have read, I have gathered the following regarding the OP (or a few of these males):
- Want to marry a 17-18 year old female to ensure "peak fertility"
- Will need 1-2 years of courting, so she will be 15-16 when he begins courtship
- Cannot be educated
- Currently mid-20's and will need time to make money (see cost of living/job posts)
- Ideal marriage age difference 37 male to 18 female
This will mean that he needs to start "sourcing" his bride for ten years from now. The bride will have to be 4-6 years old right now.
I have not seen a discussion of how she will be able to have children, and run the household with little to no education. Granted, he will probably state there is some education, but one does not know what since there is no elaboration. There is never ever any mention of her faith and catechism understanding either...
Who will handle the grocery shopping? Bills? Dealing with various repairs/utility situations? Hiring folks for possible work on vehicles/house jobs? What happens if the husband dies?
I don't think you are using the word "assertion" properly. I stated I gathered information. I surmised and then stated I had not seen certain discussions.
I know sir you feel very confident in your various assertions. They are all based in a boomer, naive way of looking at the world. A wordlview which is now bearing the true fruits we were warned it would. Catasrophic decline in marriage rates. Divorce through the roof.
-No one said no education. Just not over and unnecessary education.
- 18 in most societies everywhere before the 50s was pretty normal.
As for your lack of discussion on the other topics, all of those are up to their fathers. Boomer fathers have done a pretty poor job so far. Making their daughters as unnattractive as possible to future husbands.
I am not the OP. Just another man with sanity.
I don't think you are using the word "assertion" properly. I stated I gathered information. I surmised and then stated I had not seen certain discussions.Education here obviously refers to Jєωιѕн brainwashing :facepalm: After highschool any more education makes a woman delay marriage and risks feminist brainwashing. It's not something you can deny, someone even posted a graph here earlier showing that education delays marriage in woman.
Please note,
"Girls always used to get married in their teens, without (((education)))"
As for any comments about me personally- have fun with that.
It's true, nothing like seething a woman either in the teens or 20s that is overweight, has short hair, and dresses like a man :clown: what are the parents doing? These are 'trad' families :confused:
I know sir you feel very confident in your various assertions. They are all based in a boomer, naive way of looking at the world. A wordlview which is now bearing the true fruits we were warned it would. Catasrophic decline in marriage rates. Divorce through the roof.
-No one said no education. Just not over and unnecessary education.
- 18 in most societies everywhere before the 50s was pretty normal.
As for your lack of discussion on the other topics, all of those are up to their fathers. Boomer fathers have done a pretty poor job so far. Making their daughters as unnattractive as possible to future husbands.
I am not the OP. Just another man with sanity.
Thank you for this post.
Based on what I have read, I have gathered the following regarding the OP (or a few of these males):This refers to Jєωιѕн brainwashing not basic education, uni and other post highschool stuff is a meme
- Want to marry a 17-18 year old female to ensure "peak fertility"
- Always been normal throughout history
- Will need 1-2 years of courting, so she will be 15-16 when he begins courtship
- Courtship should be 1 year MAX, so 16-18 is fine.
- Cannot be educated
half true, some guys manage to provide by their mid 20s others by 30s.
- Currently mid-20's and will need time to make money (see cost of living/job posts)
According to Aristotle, but others have said yes in regards to the womans age but no in regards to the mans age. Personally mid 20s-early 30s for the man is my ideal age for a man (i am a man)[/list]
- Ideal marriage age difference 37 male to 18 female
This will mean that he needs to start "sourcing" his bride for ten years from now. The bride will have to be 4-6 years old right now.
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
I have not seen a discussion of how she will be able to have children, and run the household with little to no education.
You assumed that (((education))) meant not learning anything
Granted, he will probably state there is some education,
Yes
but one does not know what since there is no elaboration.
:facepalm:
There is never ever any mention of her faith and catechism understanding either...
These things are assumed, of course the husband can always teach her if required
Who will handle the grocery shopping? Bills?
Easy to learn and the girls should have learnt from their parents
Dealing with various repairs/utility situations?
That's the man's responsibility
Hiring folks for possible work on vehicles/house jobs?
Not difficult
What happens if the husband dies?
They have a funeral obviously
Peter's response is very boomerish, taking extremes and exaggerated examples plus assuming the worst.
I know sir you feel very confident in your various assertions. They are all based in a boomer, naive way of looking at the world. A wordlview which is now bearing the true fruits we were warned it would. Catasrophic decline in marriage rates. Divorce through the roof.
-No one said no education. Just not over and unnecessary education.
- 18 in most societies everywhere before the 50s was pretty normal.
As for your lack of discussion on the other topics, all of those are up to their fathers. Boomer fathers have done a pretty poor job so far. Making their daughters as unnattractive as possible to future husbands.
I am not the OP. Just another man with sanity.
I have not seen a discussion of how she will be able to have children, and run the household with little to no education.Parents should be discussing their children's vocation with them, long before age 18. Also, mothers USED TO teach their girls how to cook, clean, and run a household. Young ladies USED TO know all this stuff by age 18, whether they were going to be married or not.
Baldness? seriously? In this valley of tears, all the possible weaknesses, congenital defects and hereditary health disorders or flaws a person could have, you're going to make a big deal about baldness of all things?No without baldness may get some recession on their hair line or have some thinness/patches but they don't really go bald. It might sound vain but it's not that far from selecting by race, ultimately it's DNA that can't be lost, both race and baldness are things I have to consider, i have seen how bald men get treated unless they have the right face/skull. I know a few guys balding in their teens/20s, it's rough.
That is about as superficial as it gets.
As far as I can tell, just about everyone becomes "old" after 60 or 65. Whether it's wrinkly skin, bald, bad memory, bad eyes (if not blind), bad hearing (if not deaf), bad knees, bad back, bad heart, obesity -- something's going to "get you" when you get to late middle age, let alone retirement age.
You're going to die of some illness, if an accident doesn't take you first. Whether it's alzheimers, heart attack, cancer, stroke. Which of those would you prefer? Of course we'd all choose none-of-the-above. But that's not a choice. Welcome to this vale of tears. Form a close relationship with Jesus Christ and His Sorrowful Mother, and death will lose much of its sting.
Two or three of you sound like inexperienced young males not living in reality…..Expand on your take, otherwise it's hot air.
Not by the standards of all of human history. A woman of 23 in most was considered an old maid.This is time of great apostasy and near the end of the world.
But hey, if you want to make your standards according to a society that kills one third of its infants, allows sodomy, divorce and fornication to run rampant, then be my guest.
This is time of great apostasy and near the end of the world.Youth is a good... Also every woman was young at one point. It makes no sense for a woman not to look for a husband when young.
Even more so to look less to looks and more to the soul of the woman. The goodness of her soul is the only quality that matters. It is immature and inexperienced men who say such things. A man that calls a woman old at 23 will not cherish her the way Our Lord commands us to. We all age. Will men cherish a good woman? Thank God if you found one. They are rare creatures. This obsession with extreme youth is poison and points to a short sighted blindness. Are men all now so base that the only value they will perceive in women is the quality that satisfies their lust? “O judgement thou art fled to brutish beasts and men have lost their reason” The west completely deserves the coming chastisement.
“Grace being the soul of thy complexion shall keep the body of it ever fair”
This is time of great apostasy and near the end of the world.A younger wife is better for the children and the husband. Beauty is not the main factor; youth is. And yes, a woman's piousness is very important.
Even more so to look less to looks and more to the soul of the woman. The goodness of her soul is the only quality that matters. It is immature and inexperienced men who say such things. A man that calls a woman old at 23 will not cherish her the way Our Lord commands us to. We all age. Will men cherish a good woman? Thank God if you found one. They are rare creatures. This obsession with extreme youth is poison and points to a short sighted blindness. Are men all now so base that the only value they will perceive in women is the quality that satisfies their lust? “O judgement thou art fled to brutish beasts and men have lost their reason” The west completely deserves the coming chastisement.
“Grace being the soul of thy complexion shall keep the body of it ever fair”
graph here earlier showing that education delays marriage in woman.Statistical correlation does not equal causation.
Statistical correlation does not equal causation.:facepalm::facepalm::jester::jester:
For example, women who marry young are less likely to go to college.
Education delays marriage in women
Statistical correlation does not equal causation.Are you even hearing yourself? :laugh1:
For example, women who marry young [marriage not delayed] are less likely to go to college [less education].
Statistical correlation does not equal causation.Literal reddit comment :fryingpan:
For example, women who marry young are less likely to go to college.
Then why are women taking over everything and men in their 30’s living in Mama’s basement, rounding up shopping carts in the Walmart parking lot? In their spare time they play video games, watch porn, and eat Takis?:confused: What is a "Takis"?
Then why are women taking over everything and men in their 30’s living in Mama’s basement, rounding up shopping carts in the Walmart parking lot? In their spare time they play video games, watch porn, and eat Takis?Women have always been a privileged class in Christian Europe. Always in general women have always gotten special privileges, like not having to go to war. But the modern world has tricked the ladies into thinking they are oppressed when they are really privileged. Now they have been given even more privileges than before all while still believing they are oppressed.
, rounding up shopping carts in the Walmart parking lot?See you are also part of the problem. It does not matter what job a man has, a job is a job.
Then why are women taking over everything and men in their 30’s living in Mama’s basement, rounding up shopping carts in the Walmart parking lot? In their spare time they play video games, watch porn, and eat Takis?Why are women making money off OnlyFans, using men on dates to get free stuff and food, and going on welfare as single moms? Oh also getting alimony and child support from her exes? Looks like they even have to work a real job and can just suck men dry. There's a reason why prostitution is the oldest profession.
Amazingly in the past the woman's family had to pay the man a dowry if she wanted to get married lolIsn't that mostly a South Asian practice?
Isn't that mostly a South Asian practice?Ever heard of Saint Nicholas?
This is a worthy topic of discussion because a lot of us here are raising children who will marry one day. I’ve been reading the responses and thinking about it off and on since this thread was posted, and have had several discussions with my husband over it.Well said!
It seems that age gaps are fairly situational. A man isn’t wrong to want a wife who is fit for childbearing and who is largely untainted by the world. Such a woman will have the energy to be an excellent mother and the inclination to be a doting wife.
It’s no secret that many women are often attracted to men older than they are and that is natural as well. It’s not wrong for a young woman to look at a man and observe his mature and confident bearing, evaluate his financial situation, and to understand his willingness to work hard with reliability, for if she is to fulfill her natural calling wife/motherhood she will need someone that is ready and willing to provide for her and care for her and the children right out of the gate. Often times a man older than is the one who checks those boxes.
Having said that, it is possible for young men in their very early 20’s to do the same and given a choice the woman will probably pick the young man.
I live in a very rural part of the USA. As in, the nearest Walmart is about 1.5 hours away. We are a farming community and so are all of the other towns around here. It is very common for “highschool sweethearts” to marry. In fact, most all of the moms in our homeschool co-op are that. They dated a guy 2 or 3 years older than them, he graduated, worked his tail off for a year then married her. And if the guy was the son of a farmer, he’d go ahead and marry her when he was 18 because he was already set with a steady job and a house and a piece of land given to him by his father. Most of them have 3 or 4 kids and counting and they aren’t even Catholic.
Also coming from a rural community it’s not uncommon to see young men of 16 years old who were homeschooled out there working their own business, saving for their own house, and putting money away. They were raised well, taught skills and work ethic from their fathers and are very goal oriented. I think there’s a lot that people can learn from farmers and what a lot of the world calls “rednecks”.
Trad dads need to be teaching their sons masculine skills, instilling in them work ethic and practical life planning skills with the purpose of having their sons ready to marry and provide for a wife. That is so hard to do when dad is at work 50 hours a week and wants to relax when he comes home. Farmers and tradesmen can have their sons working with them and learning from them age 4 and up. With that said, why not encourage young trad boys in these vocational fields. I think it’s great for the upbringing of children.
At the same time, women need to be teaching their daughters all the skills. She needs to learn how to love and respect her future husband by watching mom. Cooking, canning, gardening, frugality, sewing, mending, fiber arts, and how to be wise in spending the family $$.
While men mature by action, independence, challenges, goals and achieving, young ladies only need a good home environment to bloom into a lovely young woman who can’t wait to nurture a family of her own. She doesn’t need higher education to fulfill her hearts desire, which is to be loved and cared for, and to bear children to her husband and nurture them. How beautiful it is! How wonderful God’s design!
We can talk about whose fault feminism is, we can rail against and argue with each other but the real work needs to happen one day, 1 moment at a time in the bosom of the home, the domestic church. Parents have a grave duty to raise our children well, to prepare them to be great husbands and wives because souls depend on it.
I got off track. I guess I’m saying that age gaps aren’t ideal or not ideal, they are used practically. A man wants a woman who is for to bearing and raising children while being docile, and a woman wants a man to love her and provide for her.
Given the modern atmosphere, a man in his 30’s looking for a teenage wife will run into a multitude of problems. In very few cases I think that kind of age gap would go well these days. Girls of 16,17,18 are not nearly as mature as girls of that age back then. Even trad girls often lack what is needed to marry young because they haven’t been raised with that in mind. They’ve been raised to get their education. For this reason I really do feel for the men looking for a wife in their 30’s and 40’s. These are hard times we live in. On the same token, there are some excellent trad women in their late 20’s that would make wonderful wives and are lamenting their circuмstances as well. Some prayerful consideration of looking outside of your ideals on age might bring you to a wonderful god fearing spouse!
This is a worthy topic of discussion because a lot of us here are raising children who will marry one day. I’ve been reading the responses and thinking about it off and on since this thread was posted, and have had several discussions with my husband over it...One of the best Cathinfo posts in recent times! So true! Thank you! :cowboy: :pray:
I recently saw a comment online from an older women saying she got no attention from boys when she was in highschool or in her early/mid 20s, except only from older men leering at her.When I was in my teens and 20’s, I got attention from both and the attention from older men disgusted me.
There is wisdom here.
When I was in my teens and 20’s, I got attention from both and the attention from older men disgusted me.
When I was 21, I went on a date with a 40 year old man. He was financially well off (high level US Customs officer) but he seemed so old and ugly to me. I just couldn't..............See women only like attractive guys. If those older men were handsome you would have liked them. But most guys aren't handsome. I've seen plenty of young guys who are old and ugly so I know most girls won't be happy with them.
I also went on a date with a 30-something Korean doctor. Again, I just couldn't.
When I was 21, I went on a date with a 40 year old man. He was financially well off (high level US Customs officer) but he seemed so old and ugly to me. I just couldn't..............Wow. The father of Saint Pius X got married at 41 to his 20 yr old wife, he was a mailman.
I also went on a date with a 30-something Korean doctor. Again, I just couldn't.
See women only like attractive guys. If those older men were handsome you would have liked them. But most guys aren't handsome. I've seen plenty of young guys who are old and ugly so I know most girls won't be happy with them.Would you be happy with an older unattractive woman? In other words, men may have standards but it’s silly for a woman to want a man within her own generation?
Would you be happy with an older unattractive woman?Happiness is not owed to us. Man or woman.
When I was 21, I went on a date with a 40 year old man. He was financially well off (high level US Customs officer) but he seemed so old and ugly to me. I just couldn't..............I forgot to mention I eventually married a man 10 years older than me. But I needed to grow up emotionally first.
I also went on a date with a 30-something Korean doctor. Again, I just couldn't.
See women only like attractive guys. If those older men were handsome you would have liked them. But most guys aren't handsome. I've seen plenty of young guys who are old and ugly so I know most girls won't be happy with them.:facepalm:
Would you be happy with an older unattractive woman? In other words, men may have standards but it’s silly for a woman to want a man within her own generation?This isn't the same thing at all. A woman's fertility get destroyed by age, a man's does not. A man also needs to be able to provide for a family, the woman just needs to be obedient to her husband.
This isn't the same thing at all. A woman's fertility get destroyed by age, a man's does not. A man also needs to be able to provide for a family, the woman just needs to be obedient to her husband.
Would you be happy with an older unattractive woman? In other words, men may have standards but it’s silly for a woman to want a man within her own generation?That’s exactly what one of my Dad’s Navy buddies asked about my mother.
Firstly, sugar is bad for you."Let thy vein be blessed, and rejoice with the wife of thy youth." - proverbs 5:18
What do you consider an age gap?
How much is too much?
Are you male or female?
Roughly how old are you?
Personally I think mainly older women get upset with age gaps because their 'clock' is ticking. While some younger men get upset because they can't compete.
I consider an age gap to be 5+ years
No age gap is too much as the purpose of married is to have children. So it's not about the age gap but fertility.
I am me.
In my 20s.
I keep seeing age gaps demonised online yet the same people have no issue with Elvis Presley and Priscilla Beaulieu having a 10 yr gap (14 and 24) because Elvis 'respected' her and she didn't want sex before marriage so he wasn't a 'groomer'. Yet some members of this forum have vilified men for wanting something similar (or rather something more Holy). So are these secular people more rational than some trad Catholics? Or are they just making an exception because of their personal like of Elvis since he was rich, tall, handsome and famous?
Also on the wedding day they are called the Bride and Brides-GROOM, so why is the term 'groomer' used as an attack? Seems like a hidden attack on marriage if you ask me.
"Let thy vein be blessed, and rejoice with the wife of thy youth." - proverbs 5:18
In other words, if you're going to marry, then marry when you're young. Since there are laws in this country prohibiting marriage under age 18 without parental approval, and since most men aren't attracted to much older women, your wife will be around your age.
Remember, however, that giving ones virginity to God is a much higher calling than the married life.
Please explain
It's not the ideal though.
The Holy Family is
Please explainI second this.
Please explain
I second this.I think he means that the ideal marriage is the Holy Family which had a large age gap.
I think he means that the ideal marriage is the Holy Family which had a large age gap.Also to add the modern world through propaganda puts "feelings" as the most important thing to look for in a 'partner'. This is terrible as feelings don't always last and really indicate infatuation and not real love. This is a trick by the enemy, that it's not live if you don't "feel" anything. These feelings are actually just physical attraction, which is an important thing to consider but not the only thing nor the most important.
Blessed Virgin Mary at her youngest would have been 12, and 15 at her oldest.
Saint Joseph at his youngest would have been 30, and his older we don't know, but different Saints have said 48 or 60+.
So we can see the smallest possible age gap between them was 15 years. So really Catholics should not have any issue with marriage between teenage girls and men in their 30s.
Functionally it makes sense. A man needs time to work on himself so he can provide for his family. A house, food and other resources. This also ensures his wife can stay at home and do her duties and the children can be homeschooled. The man having age and experience in life will also make him mature allowing him to be a better father and husband.
The women being young will be produce more healthy offspring and will have more energy to take care of them properly, and this will give her experience so it gets easier as she ages. Having children early also prolongs her fertility and gives her numerous health benefits due to cell exchange when pregnant. Also the woman being young also stops her from destroying herself by not making bad irrational decisions, such poor decisions can really make or break a marriage.
This is not a new idea, Aristotle said the ideal age for marriage was ~18 and ~37 respectively. For similar reasons to above. And he didn't have "science" to tell him these things, just wisdom and knowledge from history.
Unfortunately the modern world heavily stigmatised age gaps, especially if the women is in her teens. This is simply due to Jєωιѕн/masonic (feminism) influence.
Also to add the modern world through propaganda puts "feelings" as the most important thing to look for in a 'partner'. This is terrible as feelings don't always last and really indicate infatuation and not real love. This is a trick by the enemy, that it's not live if you don't "feel" anything. These feelings are actually just physical attraction, which is an important thing to consider but not the only thing nor the most important.
the Holy Family which had a large age gap.This is presented here as factual but is actually not factual. I would stick with Proberbs rather than speculation.
This is presented here as factual but is actually not factual. I would stick with Proberbs rather than speculation.This is garbage. It conflates a lot of things together that shouldn't be together, and also novus ordo modernist sheen vatican 2 rubbish.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/old-joseph-young-joseph
The age gap between Our Blessed Mother and St. Joseph is unknown. Maybe we should stick with what Our Lord said rather than speculation?
It's not the ideal though.
The Holy Family is
This is garbage. It conflates a lot of things together that shouldn't be together, and also novus ordo modernist sheen vatican 2 rubbish.I thought it was a good explanation for those who don't know that we actually don't know much about St. Joseph.
The fact is St Joseph dies before our Lords ministry. I doubt he died under the age of 60.
Also to add the modern world through propaganda puts "feelings" as the most important thing to look for in a 'partner'. This is terrible as feelings don't always last and really indicate infatuation and not real love. This is a trick by the enemy, that it's not live if you don't "feel" anything. These feelings are actually just physical attraction, which is an important thing to consider but not the only thing nor the most important.Agreed 100%.
This is presented here as factual but is actually not factual. I would stick with Proberbs rather than speculation.
Good explanation here:Was St. Joseph an old man or a young man when Jesus was born?These days, the “old Joseph” camp is largely associated with the Eastern half of the Church and with Eastern Orthodoxy. Why might a person believe that St. Joseph was an older man? Usually, the people holding to this view believe that Joseph was a widower, and that the “brothers” of Jesus mentioned in the Bible were Joseph’s children from a previous marriage. St. Epiphanius (https://web.archive.org/web/20150906041916/http:/www.masseiana.org/panarion_bk1.htm#29.), for instance, argued that St. James “was Joseph’s son by Joseph’s first wife, not by Mary.” Additionally, those who hold the “old Joseph” view point out that Joseph appears to have died some time between Jesus’ thirteenth year and his public ministry: the last we hear of him is after the finding of Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:41:51).
Scripture does not tell us explicitly, and there’s no consensus within Catholic art or theology on the matter. Our own assumptions about Joseph’s age might depend on which art we’ve happened to see. For instance, Caravaggio’s Rest on the Flight into Egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rest_on_the_Flight_into_Egypt_(Caravaggio)#/media/File:Michelangelo_Caravaggio_025.jpg) depicts Joseph as an old man, with gray hair and a gray beard, alongside a young Mary, nursing the Christ Child. But El Greco’s St. Joseph and the Christ Child (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:El_Greco_-_St_Joseph_and_the_Christ_Child_-_WGA10536.jpg), painted only a few years later, depicts Joseph as a much younger man. Why the discrepancy?
A major reason for this view’s popularity in the East is the influence of a popular second-century text called the Protoevangelium of James (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm), falsely claimed to be written by the Apostle James. In the Protoevangelium’s account, after the Virgin Mary turned twelve, heralds went out to all of Judaea to find widowers who could marry her to protect her and preserve her pledged virginity. The widowers, each carrying rods, came before the high priest, and a dove flew out of Joseph’s rod, signifying God’s choice. Joseph initially refused, saying, “I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel.” Joseph remains ashamed of this age difference and considers claiming Mary as his daughter (rather than his wife) in responding to the census. Even after the birth of Jesus, he insists that while they are betrothed, Mary is not really his wife, since her child is of the Holy Spirit.
A later (perhaps sixth-century) Egyptian text called The History of Joseph the Carpenter (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0805.htm) went farther, claiming that Joseph lived to be 111 and presenting Jesus as saying Joseph “lived forty years unmarried; thereafter his wife remained under his care forty-nine years, and then died. And a year after her death, my mother, the blessed Mary, was entrusted to him by the priests, that he should keep her until the time of her marriage.” By that telling, Joseph was already in his nineties by the time Jesus was born.
The Protoevangelium is from the East (perhaps Syria), and its stories became popular in both East and West, but Western theologians tended not to take its accounts seriously. The book was among those condemned by Pope Innocent I (http://www.bible-researcher.com/innocent.html) in 405, and again by the “Decretum Gelasianum (http://www.tertullian.org/decretum_eng.htm).” Nevertheless, stories from the Protoevangelium crept into the Western medieval imagination via yet another false Gospel, a seventh-century text called The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0848.htm), which implausibly claimed both to have been written in Hebrew by the apostle and translated into Latin by St. Jerome. This text borrows heavily from the Protoevangelium and presents Joseph as saying Mary is younger than his grandchildren.
Even while theologians (including the pope) criticized the texts as unreliable, their stories nevertheless captured the public’s imagination, an influence that can be seen on centuries’ worth of art (primarily paintings, but also medieval dramas and even songs, like “The Cherry-Tree Carol”) throughout the Church.
What caused Western theologians to reject this view of St. Joseph in favor of a younger Joseph? Partially, the influence of St. Jerome, (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm) who argued that the “brothers” of Jesus were more likely first cousins (Aramaic uses (https://www.catholic.com/tract/brethren-of-the-lord) “brothers” as a kind of familial catch-all). Two of the “brothers” St. Mark mentions, James and Joses (6:3), he later describes as the sons of another Mary (15:40,47)—likely, Mary, the wife of Clopas (John 19:25; Luke 24:18). Thus, they do seem to be not Joseph’s sons from a previous marriage, but the sons of Mary and Clopas (who tradition holds was Joseph’s brother).
Jerome’s view eliminates the need to believe that Joseph was a widower, but it doesn’t automatically mean that Joseph was a young man. For that, we should look to the influence of theologians like Jean Gerson (1363-1429), chancellor of the prestigious University of Paris, who used sermons, theological treatises, and even poetry to argue that St. Joseph was being overlooked and misunderstood. Was it really likely that the man who fled with his family into Egypt in the middle of the night was a nonagenarian? And if he did have kids from a previous marriage, where were they during the events of the first Christmas?
More important was the implicit view of chastity. As Ven. Fulton Sheen (https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1586174746) would later observe, many of the popular “old Joseph” depictions “unconsciously made Joseph a spouse chaste and pure by age rather than virtue.” Sheen argued that Joseph “was probably a young man, strong, virile, athletic, handsome, chaste, and disciplined,” the kind of man one sees sometimes “working at a carpenter’s bench. Instead of being a man incapable of love, he must have been on fire with love.” St. Josemaría Escrivá (https://stjosemaria.org/in-st-josephs-workshop/), founder of Opus Dei, agreed: “I see him as a strong young man, perhaps a few years older than our Lady, but in the prime of his life and work.” Whatever his age, Joseph was of working age recently enough for the townspeople to describe the adult Jesus as “the carpenter’s son” (Matt. 13:55), and as Pope Francis (http://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_letters/docuмents/papa-francesco-lettera-ap_20201208_patris-corde.html) points out, it was from St. Joseph that Jesus learned “the value, the dignity and the joy of what it means to eat bread that is the fruit of one’s own labor.”
A via media is possible. Recent historical scholarship, looking at rabbinical sources (telling people how they should conduct marriage) and the handful of ancient Jєωιѕн marriage docuмents (showing how they actually did) has given us greater insight into the marrying age of first-century Jews. Michael L. Satlow (https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691002552/Jєωιѕн-marriage-in-antiquity), professor of religious studies and Judaic studies at Brown University, summarizes by saying Jєωιѕн men in first-century Palestine may have married around thirty, with Jєωιѕн women marrying in their mid- to late-teens. The evidence is far from conclusive, and there’s nothing preventing Joseph from marrying earlier or later than average (particularly if he was remarrying), but it paints a different portrait of Joseph from a man either 90 years old or only a few years older than Mary. Such a man would likely have been strong enough to work as a carpenter and transport his family from Nazareth to Bethlehem to Egypt, but he would also be more likely to predecease his young wife, and it would be hardly surprising for him not to live to see his son’s adult ministry.
As you can see, great theologians and even great saints are divided on the question of the age difference between Joseph and Mary. But where we are all united is in our being under Joseph’s fatherly protection, and our need for his intercession. St. Joseph, pray for us!
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/old-joseph-young-joseph
Mary was most likely 14-16. Jospeh was probably about 28-35.Did you read the thread here? https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/the-age-of-st-joseph/
Still a good deal older, but I don't think Jospeh was "an old man". In my opinion, he was probably a stout guy.
Did you read the thread here? https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/the-age-of-st-joseph/Yes, I read it.
Yes, I read it.Neither old not young.
Neither old not young.I personally don't think 28-35 is young for his time. To me, that's near middle age for that time. Especially near mid 30's.
No one would say 48 is old. He could have been 50 even.
So your put a number on it for no real reason.
Bear in mind that this opinion was the more "liberal" opinions, as the author himself admits.
Please do not open your mouth on this issue until you have done some serious reading on the subject and stop quoting dubious sources like Fulton Sheen and Escriva and post Vatican II opinions.:jester:
Did you not read the article posted only a few days ago on the subject? https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/the-age-of-st-joseph/
Agreed 100%.Are you a priest?
I have counseled many on looking for a spouse logically rather than sentimentally. After all, love is a virtue, a conscious choice, not a feeling.
I thought it was a good explanation for those who don't know that we actually don't know much about St. Joseph.>Jews invent feminism and age gap propaganda
Sure, St. Joseph died before Our Lord's ministry, but we don't know at what age he died.
Speculation is best kept to a minimum.
Are you a priest?No.
Please do not open your mouth on this issue until you have done some serious reading on the subject and stop quoting dubious sources like Fulton Sheen and Escriva and post Vatican II opinions.This just says he was a man. Middle aged, not young or old. It doesn't even give a number. So i am going to assume 30-40. Because scripture says the life of man is 70-80 yrs, and 35-40 is middle aged.
Did you not read the article posted only a few days ago on the subject? https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/the-age-of-st-joseph/
Where's your proof?
>Holy family has a large age gap
This just says he was a man. Middle aged, not young or old. It doesn't even give a number. So i am going to assume 30-40. Because scripture says the life of man is 70-80 yrs, and 35-40 is middle aged.Perhaps is best to stick with facts rather than personal opinion.
Where's your proof?Because we know historically Jєωιѕн women got married as young as 12, and the other ancient civilizations it was around 15. Since judae was under Roman occupation it makes sense she got married in her youth.
It's a rhetorical question, because there is no proof. We simple don't know and can only speculate.
Perhaps is best to stick with facts rather than personal opinion.We can stick with historical marriage ages and the opinions of the Saints. Not Jєωιѕн propaganda piece articles.
Since we don't know the age gap between Our Lady and St. Joseph, perhaps we should look elsewhere for Catholic traching on the subject
Where's your proof?Our Lady was around 15 and St Joseph was around 30. Saints have said this, as even historians admit it. There's plenty of proof. St Joseph already had a business as a carpenter. In those days, you studied under an experienced person for a certain time, before you were independent. It all lines up with his age of around 30.
It's a rhetorical question, because there is no proof. We simple don't know and can only speculate.
I personally don't think 28-35 is young for his time. To me, that's near middle age for that time. Especially near mid 30's.
:jester:We must respect historical oral tradition. As well as theological opinion, and because of the importance of who St. Joseph is, this touches on, if not is a part of theological discourse.
Fact is, WE DON'T KNOW, no matter who we quote, or what anyone speculates.
Where's your proof?
It's a rhetorical question, because there is no proof. We simple don't know and can only speculate.
Because we know historically Jєωιѕн women got married as young as 12, and the other ancient civilizations it was around 15. Since judae was under Roman occupation it makes sense she got married in her youth.
Even in the middle ages before protestantism most gis got married by 19.
It extremely unlikely and frankly foolish to believe that St Joseph was her age or even only a few years older as men take more time to develop, mature and become capable at doing their duties.
Since many Saints have given Saint Joseph a decent 'middle' age that would put the age gap at ~15 or so years.
Agreed.
Lets stop trying to impose our preferences on the thing. We moderns are always doing that. We have to extrapolate and put ourselves more in the time and be rigidly self critical of our own preferences.
Agreed.
The Bible does not specify the age gap between Our Lady and St Joseph.
The Church does not have doctrine on the age gap between them, either.
It is pointless for anyone to speculate, saint or not.
The fact remains, God told us in Proverbs, that if we marry, to marry young. God also told us that giving one's virginity to Our Lord is a higher calling.
We must respect historical oral tradition. As well as theological opinion, and because of the importance of who St. Joseph is, this touches on, if not is a part of theological discourse.Proof of "historical oral tradition", please?
Proof of "historical oral tradition", please?The article cited earlier cites medieval scholastics and then there are references in the Fathers. Just look it up yourself.
Theological opinion is still just opinion.
The Protoevangelium of James, written around 140-170AD, quotes St. Joseph as saying he's an "old man" and Our Lady a "young girl".
This is pretty old historical tradition and has been influential in shaping Catholic traditions and beliefs.
However, it was condemned as a canonical text and excluded from the biblical canon by Church officials and councils because it contains legendary material and artistic embellishments not supported by canonical scripture.
So, be careful what you call on as historical tradition.
The article cited earlier cites medieval scholastics and then there are references in the Fathers. Just look it up yourself.
I read it. Opinion and speculation.
Being not in canon does not mean something is condemned.
That's not what I said. What I said was, "it was condemned as a canonical text and excluded from the biblical canon by Church officials and councils because it contains legendary material and artistic embellishments not supported by canonical scripture."
Let's not twist things, eh?
Proof of "historical oral tradition", please?
Theological opinion is still just opinion.
The Protoevangelium of James, written around 140-170AD, quotes St. Joseph as saying he's an "old man" and Our Lady a "young girl".
This is pretty old historical tradition and has been influential in shaping Catholic traditions and beliefs.
However, it was condemned as a canonical text and excluded from the biblical canon by Church officials and councils because it contains legendary material and artistic embellishments not supported by canonical scripture.
So, be careful what you call on as historical tradition.
I find this discussion about Mary and Joseph's age off topic. If they are the ideal marriage then women marry someone who can protect them and then the children come without any marital act. Their marriage was very unique.
I think men should focus on setting up a house for a wife to run, but if God puts someone in the man's path to marry he shouldn't say "Oh. Not now. I am only 23". I think we need to pay more attention to God's plan for each individual than to come up with generalities that work for some and make others extremely scrupulous.
On the contrary its precisely on topic.Put this way makes the most sense, I was not intending to undermine the ideal, but I was just recognizing that most humans are prone to sin and if the man is burning with lust then that needs to be taken into consideration. We have to talk about the ideal and reality together.
Woman should not delay at all for marriage, and the Blessed Mother gives girls that example.
Men on the contrary should delay as long as they can, unless they are burning with lust. Because they make better leaders the more seasoned they are. And in this, St. Joseph gives the example.
The ideal does not mean what is normally practiced. Most Catholics did not reach this ideal. But its still the ideal.
I find attempts to undermine this ideal perverse.
I find this discussion about Mary and Joseph's age off topic. If they are the ideal marriage then women marry someone who can protect them and then the children come without any marital act. Their marriage was very unique.Exactly!
I think men should focus on setting up a house for a wife to run, but if God puts someone in the man's path to marry he shouldn't say "Oh. Not now. I am only 23". I think we need to pay more attention to God's plan for each individual than to come up with generalities that work for some and make others extremely scrupulous.
:facepalm:
Men on the contrary should delay as long as they can, unless they are burning with lust.
The Apostles would've known. Their successors, the Church Fathers, would've known. Most early Christians would've known. It's called Tradition; it's information passed down through history.Of which we have no definitive source.
No 17-18 year old wants to marry a 37 year old man.I disagree.
to Dave Ramsey. He will give you good advice.outdated, non catholic, modernist boomer advice.
I disagree.A woman should not be looking for a "father figure" as a husband.
There are many older female teens looking for a father figure and/or want the stability an older man may provide.
A woman should not be looking for a "father figure" as a husband.What women want... can change. And does change.
What women want... can change. And does change.But to answer it directy, they should want a guide and a leader. Not an equal. This is a feminist mentality.
Western society is far to individualistic to understand this anymore, but marriage has consequences far beyond personal preferences.
Our main focus as men should be what is best, long run.
While women will always have preferences, and you can't force them to have other ones. They can be reasoned with.
A man who feels he cannot provide yet should get real busy building a nest egg so he can get his girl in two to three years. If he sulks in the victim mentality for too long, the young women will not be interested. That may mean living under his means, with his parents, scrimping and saving, or looking for a woman who doesn’t mind living modestly. There’s nothing wrong with living in a trailer home. No 17-18 year old wants to marry a 37 year old man. Give a listen to Dave Ramsey. He will give you good advice.
We should be also very considerate of the fact that the economy actively works against a sole income provider. Part of the NWO plan dont forget.Yes, but a lot of money can be saved in two years time working two jobs. Yes, it’s hard but it can be done. If this fellow sets aside nearly his whole income he can be in a great position to provide for his future family. And God will undoubtedly help him provide once he is married as well. I am just concerned some young men are so disheartened but they can do something about it. They don’t have to wait a decade to get married.
So men need to be given a
outdated, non catholic, modernist boomer advice.I personally like a whole lotta boomers:cowboy:. I don’t suggest listening to his religious beliefs but he makes a whole lot of sense with his financial advice.
I personally like a whole lotta boomers:cowboy:. I don’t suggest listening to his religious beliefs but he makes a whole lot of sense with his financial advice.He is good with the budgeting for those trying to get out of debt. It ends there.
A woman should not be looking for a "father figure" as a husband.Very true, but they're out there..
They don’t have to wait a decade to get married.They don't have to marry at all. Remember, giving one's virginity to Our Lord is a higher calling, with or without Holy Orders.
On the contrary its precisely on topic.That's because most of the people calling St Joseph young are female feminists. This is why women need to be obedient to their husbands, they like the rationality that the male nature has and need to be led.
Woman should not delay at all for marriage, and the Blessed Mother gives girls that example.
Men on the contrary should delay as long as they can, unless they are burning with lust. Because they make better leaders the more seasoned they are. And in this, St. Joseph gives the example.
The ideal does not mean what is normally practiced. Most Catholics did not reach this ideal. But its still the ideal.
I find attempts to undermine this ideal perverse.
Put this way makes the most sense, I was not intending to undermine the ideal, but I was just recognizing that most humans are prone to sin and if the man is burning with lust then that needs to be taken into consideration. We have to talk about the ideal and reality together.Unfortunately both today and in other historical times it is very difficult for a man to provide. It just takes so much time and effort to build yourself up as a guy, it's very frustrating when you finally do that and your reward is supposed to be a fat old women, no thanks.
If a husband and wife show the example of a good marriage, then the sons of that marriage naturally build up their house before even looking for a spouse. I can't speak for families with daughters, but i have noticed that girls at age 12 start coming up an image of the man they would like to marry.
i have noticed that girls at age 12 start coming up an image of the man they would like to marry.For anyone here with daughters, can you confirm this statement?
Let's not. ::):laugh1:
:facepalm:For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. 8 But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. 9 But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt [1 Corinthians 7:9]
So many things wrong with this statement...
A man "burning with lust" should not marry.
A man who feels he cannot provide yet should get real busy building a nest egg so he can get his girl in two to three years. If he sulks in the victim mentality for too long, the young women will not be interested. That may mean living under his means, with his parents, scrimping and saving, or looking for a woman who doesn’t mind living modestly. There’s nothing wrong with living in a trailer home. No 17-18 year old wants to marry a 37 year old man. Give a listen to Dave Ramsey. He will give you good advice.It takes A LOT longer than 2-3 years. More like 10+ years considering the average wage and average house prices.
I disagree.Are you a man or a women? Married with children? What's your support for this claim?
There are many older female teens looking for a father figure and/or want the stability an older man may provide.
outdated, non catholic, modernist boomer advice.Yeah that guy gives bad takes all the times. Boomers never learn.
I disagree.Older as in 20s? Or older as in 30/40s? Very big difference.
There are many older female teens looking for a father figure and/or want the stability an older man may provide.
For anyone here with daughters, can you confirm this statement?+- a couple of years, depending upon upbringing.
For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. 8 But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. 9 But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt [1 Corinthians 7:9]Such idiocy.
I swear some of your 'trads' don't even read or believe scripture. St Paul is very clear. It is better to marry than to be burnt (hell due to unlawful sɛҳuąƖ sins outside of marriage). So a man burning with lust should marry lest he commit a sin and go to hell.
Why are you people like this? Do you hate men? Are you just a Puritan?
What's your support for this claim?My experiences.
Older as in 20s? Or older as in 30/40s? Very big difference.My referral to "older female teen" and "older man" was to reply of someone posting "No 17-18 year old wants to marry a 37 year old man." In my experience, this statement is untrue.
So a man burning with lust should marry lest he commit a sin and go to hell.Under no circuмstance would i believe that God would tell a "man burning with lust" to marry (and thus put the woman in a terrible situation).
Such idiocy.
The section you refer to in Corinthians does not mean for lustful men to marry.
This is spoken of such as are free, and not of such as, by vow, have given their first faith to God; to whom if they will use proper means to obtain it, God will never refuse the gift of continency.
Under no circuмstance would i believe that God would tell a "man burning with lust" to marry (and thus put the woman in a terrible situation).What are you talking about :facepalm: Marriage is literally a remedy for concupiscence.
1 Corinthians 7:2 But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife: and let every woman have her own husband.
The man needs to pray and learn to control himself rather than bring someone else into his sin
What are you talking about :facepalm: Marriage is literally a remedy for concupiscence.I disagree.
The "burnt" St. Paul uses, ("better to marry than to be burnt") means to burn with sɛҳuąƖ passion.
I disagree.And you couldn't be more wrong
The remedy for any sin is prayer.And marriage is a remedy for concupiscence
Elisting an unwitting woman as a remedy for a man's sin (concupiscence, lust, burning with sɛҳuąƖ passion) is wrong.Okay, so you're just anti-men :facepalm:
"Burnt" refers to marrying to avoid fornication (of the both of them) and burning in hellThe Greek word St. Paul uses literally means "to burn with passion". I don't think we necessarily disagree here. It is better to marry than to commit sins of impurity
+- a couple of years, depending upon upbringing.?
Such idiocy.Wow do you really think haydock is the only commentary?
The section you refer to in Corinthians does not mean for lustful men to marry.
This is spoken of such as are free, and not of such as, by vow, have given their first faith to God; to whom if they will use proper means to obtain it, God will never refuse the gift of continency.
Under no circuмstance would i believe that God would tell a "man burning with lust" to marry (and thus put the woman in a terrible situation).Talk about feminism. So a man with a strong libido is terrible for a woman. Yikes
The man needs to pray and learn to control himself rather than bring someone else into his sin.
What are you talking about :facepalm: Marriage is literally a remedy for concupiscence.And getting burnt by impure passions has the consequence for getting burnt by Hellfire for eternity.
The "burnt" St. Paul uses, ("better to marry than to be burnt") means to burn with sɛҳuąƖ passion.
That's the whole point doofus! It's not a sin if you're married! Are you serious?
I disagree."Unwitting woman"
The remedy for any sin is prayer.
Elisting an unwitting woman as a remedy for a man's sin (concupiscence, lust, burning with sɛҳuąƖ passion) is wrong.
"Burnt" refers to marrying to avoid fornication (of the both of them) and burning in hell.
I disagree.You know woman can burn with passion as well? Your assumption is sexist against men and women.
The remedy for any sin is prayer.
Elisting an unwitting woman as a remedy for a man's sin (concupiscence, lust, burning with sɛҳuąƖ passion) is wrong.
"Burnt" refers to marrying to avoid fornication (of the both of them) and burning in hell.
Ok i didn't see this before i respond above.
The Greek word St. Paul uses literally means "to burn with passion". I don't think we necessarily disagree here. It is better to marry than to commit sins of impurity
And you couldn't be more wrongAnd marriage is a remedy for concupiscenceOkay, so you're just anti-men :facepalm:I've tried.
"Unwitting", as if a woman wouldn't know what one of the ends of marriage is: a remedy for concupiscence
Again, marriage makes it not a sin. That's the point! Concupiscence isn't a sin either. Neither is "burning with sɛҳuąƖ passion". That can most certainly be involuntary, and almost overwhelming. You cannot be serious :facepalm:
The Greek word St. Paul uses literally means "to burn with passion". I don't think we necessarily disagree here. It is better to marry than to commit sins of impurity
Talk about feminism. So a man with a strong libido is terrible for a woman. YikesA "man with a strong libido" does not equal a "man burning with lust".
"Unwitting woman"The Bible section you quote is not referring to actions between spouses. It is referring to the unmarried.
Oh how sad the state of Trad feminists. Imagine believing that lawful activity with a spouse is sinful. How prudish can you get.
You know woman can burn with passion as well? Your assumption is sexist against men and women.:jester::facepalm:
3 (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=4&l=3-#x)For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that you should abstain from fornication; 4 (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=4&l=4-#x)That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour: 5 (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=4&l=5-#x)Not in the passion of lust, like the Gentiles that know not GodExactly.
Putting aside higher motives, in practice one is not likely to meet a gal and get married in 5 minutes so one needs to learn how to deal with the reality of being a sɛҳuąƖ being, and the attendant urges, whether one likes it or not.
It's obviously a sensitive topic and nearly impossible to discuss profitably in groups with mixed maturity levels.It's become clear to me that this is true, although the topic doesn't seem complicated to me....
I've tried.Marriage is a remedy for concupiscence. It's pretty simple really
Maybe this will explain it better to you than I have been able: https://catholicgentleman.com/2023/10/marriage-will-not-cure-your-lust/
Marriage is a remedy for concupiscence. It's pretty simple reallyYou are wrong. I can't help you anymore. I tried. Maybe someone else can. Sorry.
It's become clear to me that this is true, although the topic doesn't seem complicated to me....One complication is that not every sɛҳuąƖ urge has, properly speaking, lust as its root. It's not uncommon that one has an underlying problem, perhaps loneliness, a desire for union or completeness, that manifests as a sɛҳuąƖ urge. When prayer, fasting, and avoiding temptation doesn't solve the issue, it's time to look deeper into oneself for the cause.
You are wrong. I can't help you anymore. I tried. Maybe someone else can. Sorry.:facepalm:
Marriages have this good also, that carnal or youthful incontinence, although it be faulty, is brought unto an honest use in the begetting of children, in order that out of the evil of lust the marriage union may bring to pass some good. Next, in that the lust of the flesh is repressed, and rages in a way more modestly, being tempered by parental affection.
St. Augustine, Of The Good Of Marriage
A third reason has been added, as a consequence of the fall of our first parents. On account of the loss of original innocence the passions began to rise in rebellion against right reason; and man, conscious of his own frailty and unwilling to fight the battles of the flesh, is supplied by marriage with an antidote by which to avoid sins of lust. For fear of fornication, says the Apostle, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband; and a little after, having recommended to married persons a temporary abstinence from the marriage debt, to give themselves to prayer, he adds: Return together again, lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency.
Catechism of the Council of Trent
Reply to Objection 3. From the very fact that marriage is intended as an office or as a remedy it has the aspect of something useful and right; nevertheless both aspects belong to it from the fact that it has these goods by which it fulfills the office and affords a remedy to concupiscence.
Summa, Supp., Q.49, Article 1
Canon 1013
§ 1. The primary end of marriage is the procreation and education of children; the secondary
[end] is mutual support and a remedy for concupiscence.
Code of Canon Law, 1917
:facepalm:Trying to find the disconnect.... It just hit me...
Trying to find the disconnect.... It just hit me...You are the one who labeled "concupiscence" and "burning with sɛҳuąƖ passions" as sins, when they are not:
You went from talking about "man burning with lust" to concupiscence.
I assumed you were using the terms interchangeably, even though concupiscence is not a "man burning with lust".
You sneaky devil. I'm done with you.
Elisting an unwitting woman as a remedy for a man's sin (concupiscence, lust, burning with sɛҳuąƖ passion) is wrong.And that is precisely what marriage is a remedy for. As I have just demonstrated. Who exactly is the sneaky devil? You're done with me because you have no response to what I quoted. You are wrong
Trying to find the disconnect.... It just hit me...Ladislaus was right about the trolls on this forum. You accuse him of being a devil yet you say something good is a sin...
You went from talking about "man burning with lust" to concupiscence. I assumed you were using the terms interchangeably, even though concupiscence is not a "man burning with lust".
You sneaky devil. I'm done with you.
Such idiocy.
The section you refer to in Corinthians does not mean for lustful men to marry.
This is spoken of such as are free, and not of such as, by vow, have given their first faith to God; to whom if they will use proper means to obtain it, God will never refuse the gift of continency.
attention on other duties and be they want to be.
Why is it difficult for some men on here to comprehend the protectiveness parents have regarding their daughters (age 14 -17) from men “burning with lust” or struggling with concupiscence of the flesh? Especially from men those men in their upper 30’s? You seem to be trying to change our minds with each new thread coming along. I understand full well men and women are different in that regard. You seem to be willing to educate the ladies and men who disagree with you on this but can’t you see the apprehension parents have knowing well that you are looking at our daughters in a way that they are not mature enough to handle? The church does not encourage long engagements for a reason.
Why is it difficult for some men on here to comprehend the protectiveness parents have regarding their daughters (age 14 -17) from men “burning with lust” or struggling with concupiscence of the flesh? Especially from men those men in their upper 30’s? You seem to be trying to change our minds with each new thread coming along. I understand full well men and women are different in that regard. You seem to be willing to educate the ladies and men who disagree with you on this but can’t you see the apprehension parents have knowing well that you are looking at our daughters in a way that they are not mature enough to handle? The church does not encourage long engagements for a reason.This is some dramatic stupidity.
Why is it difficult for some men on here to comprehend the protectiveness parents have regarding their daughters (age 14 -17) from men “burning with lust” or struggling with concupiscence of the flesh? Especially from men those men in their upper 30’s? You seem to be trying to change our minds with each new thread coming along. I understand full well men and women are different in that regard. You seem to be willing to educate the ladies and men who disagree with you on this but can’t you see the apprehension parents have knowing well that you are looking at our daughters in a way that they are not mature enough to handle? The church does not encourage long engagements for a reason."Oh no these older established men want to get married and have children with my darling daughter, oh the depravity, oh the lustfully misogynistic old unattractive men, if only I raised my daughters better their mind's would be as mature as their bodies"
"Oh no these older established men want to get married and have children with my darling daughter, oh the depravity, oh the lustfully misogynistic old unattractive men, if only I raised my daughters better their mind's would be as mature as their bodies"Right. And lust wouldn't be more of a thing with YOUNGER MEN???? lol these women on here.
Why do you assume this is about lust and not fertility and basic attraction?
Why don't parents understand that their children will eventually need to leave the nest and get married?
Do you even realise that this problem will also effect your own sons as they grow and struggle to buy a house and provide for a family?
What will you say then to them?
"Oh no these older established men want to get married and have children with my darling daughter, oh the depravity, oh the lustfully misogynistic old unattractive men, if only I raised my daughters better their mind's would be as mature as their bodies"
Why do you assume this is about lust and not fertility and basic attraction?
Why don't parents understand that their children will eventually need to leave the nest and get married?
Do you even realise that this problem will also effect your own sons as they grow and struggle to buy a house and provide for a family?
What will you say then to them?
This is some dramatic stupidity.If you don't acknowledge the fears of women, then you will never get what you want. Your response is extremely immature.
If you don't acknowledge the fears of women, then you will never get what you want. Your response is extremely immature.Stop tone policing
Totally agree.You sir(s) are out of touch and need to get out of the negative internet echo chamber for awhile. If you did you might find that the trad world has weddings happening all over and married men and women who are happy with each other and fitting their lives well within the natural order.
It was a married woman who probably has not talked to her husband about this properly.
Either he is a wimp who lets her do and think what she wants, or she is just prideful that she hasn't even asked him, and even if she did, she would just think what she wants anyway. No respect.
And people wonder why there are so few trad marriages these days, when women like this are allowed on the internet.
Totally agree.If you want the women to be understanding and logical, then you have to also meet women where they are. We live in 2025 that is extremely sɛҳuąƖly charged. Just like women aren't immune to the sins of feminism, men aren't immune to the extremely lustful nature of today's society. We, both sexes, have to be understanding of the fears of the opposite sex.
It was a married woman who probably has not talked to her husband about this properly.
Either he is a wimp who lets her do and think what she wants, or she is just prideful that she hasn't even asked him, and even if she did, she would just think what she wants anyway. No respect.
And people wonder why there are so few trad marriages these days, when women like this are allowed on the internet.
If you don't acknowledge the fears of women,Most of women's fears are not based in reality. If women were given free rein to protect their child from all of her fears, children would never learn to ride bicycles...
You sir(s) are out of touch and need to get out of the negative internet echo chamber for awhile. If you did you might find that the trad world has weddings happening all over and married men and women who are happy with each other and fitting their lives well within the natural order.
If you want the women to be understanding and logical, then you have to also meet women where they are. We live in 2025 that is extremely sɛҳuąƖly charged. Just like women aren't immune to the sins of feminism, men aren't immune to the extremely lustful nature of today's society. We, both sexes, have to be understanding of the fears of the opposite sex.Where a woman is, or where she should be, means having a man in her life telling her what is best.
Most of women's fears are not based in reality. If women were given free rein to protect their child from all of her fears, children would never learn to ride bicycles...Bingo.
Stop tone policingDo you think that is going to stop me from expressing my thoughts? I used to care and be effected by a comment like that. It is not going to work anymore. Nice try though.
If you want the women to be understanding and logical,Feminism has proven that if you give women money, power and authority, they can't be understanding and logical. Can't change human nature.
then you have to also meet women where they are.It's not your job to understand; it's your job to obey.
Most of women's fears are not based in reality. If women were given free rein to protect their child from all of her fears, children would never learn to ride bicycles...That may be so, but if you tell her she is stupid for having what a man thinks is an illogical emotion, then she will not listen to you or trust you. Men have seemed to forget that they are suppose to be strong through an emotional storm. They are not suppose to try and stop it.
Bingo.I see and you, probably a man, understand female nature.
The women who actually understand female nature are not on here posting feminism nonsense like gray and boru
I see and you, probably a man, understand female nature.Yes definitely.
Do you think that is going to stop me from expressing my thoughts? I used to care and be effected by a comment like that. It is not going to work anymore. Nice try though.That's not a good thing.
That may be so, but if you tell her she is stupid for having what a man thinks is an illogical emotion, then she will not listen to you or trust you. Men have seemed to forget that they are suppose to be strong through an emotional storm. They are not suppose to try and stop it.Women aren't stupid for having emotions. They are stupid for thinking that their emotions matter. This is why society is failing. Over-reliance and over-emphasis on emotions.
Do you think that is going to stop me from expressing my thoughts? I used to care and be effected by a comment like that. It is not going to work anymore. Nice try though.This is feminizim in action. The comment was to stop tone policing, which is a valid request, because tone policing is wrong and uncharitable. Instead of recognizing this, you doubled-down and think that your self-expression is more important than your obligations to charity. You've just elevated your emotions over your faith. You put your own needs first.
"Oh no these older established men want to get married and have children with my darling daughter, oh the depravity, oh the lustfully misogynistic old unattractive men, if only I raised my daughters better their mind's would be as mature as their bodies"
Why do you assume this is about lust and not fertility and basic attraction? Because men on here are upset with women not acknowledging their needs (concupiscence of the flesh).
Why don't parents understand that their children will eventually need to leave the nest and get married? We do know this, obviously, we are married ourselves. We just don’t like the idea of men in their mid thirties looking over our 14 year old girls.
Do you even realise that this problem will also effect your own sons as they grow and struggle to buy a house and provide for a family? Trailer park homes and apartments are a ok with us.
What will you say then to them? No dating until you have a job to support a wife and baby. We don’t expect six figures, just the will to work and provide for their family. God will help them. We will help them as well if they need it.
Women aren't stupid for having emotions. They are stupid for thinking that their emotions matter. This is why society is failing. Over-reliance and over-emphasis on emotions.So you men want a beauty less society with no negative or positive emotions?
Catholic theology teaches us that emotions can be dangerous. We are tempted by emotions. We are supposed to mistrust emotions.
To get back to a catholic society, emotions need to be re-regulated to where they belong - in the home. Not in society. Not in world affairs. These must be governed by reason, which is why men are supposed to govern.
When society is governed by reason, then emotions can flourish and women can be safe because there are guardrails in place. A feminized society has no guardrails because emotions run amok.
This is feminizim in action. The comment was to stop tone policing, which is a valid request, because tone policing is wrong and uncharitable. Instead of recognizing this, you doubled-down and think that your self-expression is more important than your obligations to charity. You've just elevated your emotions over your faith. You put your own needs first.I see men are allowed to put their emotions first and women have to listen because of obedience.
Faith > emotions
Charity > emotions
Your neighbor > emotions
Feminism = emotions > (anything and everything).
I can understand you as a man coming to this conclusion, but you are not correct here, at least about me. I may be emotional about this, but I cannot get over the idea of a man in his mid thirties wanting to be with my teenage daughter. My husband feels the same way. Age gap after a girl is20 is fine, even if the man is 20 plus years older. The men who are upset over this opinion are not helping me change my mind, that’s for sure. There is a man though who disagrees with me that I would be more willing to discuss ideas with as he seems more even tempered and I would prefer my daughter marry him at age 18, even if he is in his low thirties.
Mainly the reason some mothers want their daughters marrying younger men is because they see a man more easy to manipulate.
To the poster just above, it is about men caring about a superior and better marriage where the age difference is greater.
If you keep reducing it down to the flesh, I feel sorry for you.
My husband feels the same way.You're husband is a modernist, then.
I can understand you as a man coming to this conclusion, but you are not correct here, at least about me. I may be emotional about this, but I cannot get over the idea of a man in his mid thirties wanting to be with my teenage daughter. My husband feels the same way. Age gap after a girl is20 is fine, even if the man is 20 plus years older. The men who are upset over this opinion are not helping me change my mind, that’s for sure. There is a man though who disagrees with me that I would be more willing to discuss ideas with as he seems more even tempered and I would prefer my daughter marry him at age 18, even if he is in his low thirties.Women are the ones who started talking about 14 year olds. The original discussion was 18 year old adults.
I see men are allowed to put their emotions first and women have to listen because of obedience.There's no need to be snarky.
I can understand you as a man coming to this conclusion, but you are not correct here, at least about me. I may be emotional about this, but I cannot get over the idea of a man in his mid thirties wanting to be with my teenage daughter. My husband feels the same way. Age gap after a girl is20 is fine, even if the man is 20 plus years older. The men who are upset over this opinion are not helping me change my mind, that’s for sure. There is a man though who disagrees with me that I would be more willing to discuss ideas with as he seems more even tempered and I would prefer my daughter marry him at age 18, even if he is in his low thirties.Its strange and would be more amusing, if it wasn't so tragic, that you seem blissfully unaware of how subjective you are being.
The men would do a whole lot better if they taught men how to lead. Leading comes first then obedience, it doesn't work the other way around. I don't think any woman could obey a man into being a good leader.I think you are missing the most hilarious irony here is that all the different men posting on this thread ARE trying to lead. By stating the Truth.
I see men are allowed to put their emotions first and women have to listen because of obedience.Not sure what this even means. Your reply was to a message that was based on reason, not emotion.
The men would do a whole lot better if they taught men how to lead. Leading comes first then obedience, it doesn't work the other way around. I don't think any woman could obey a man into being a good leader.Men know how to lead. Women have been brainwashed not to follow. Feminization has made women ROAR. You go, girl. Speak your truth. :facepalm:
There's no need to be snarky.God didn't give you authority over me. The only one who has authority over me in this forum is the moderator. Let's put things in a proper perspective. If Matthew says I am out of line, I will listen to him.
What I will unashamedly mansplain to you now is that as a woman your weak mind is not able to discern when a man is being emotional, or just being just. You will get it wrong.
You also need to remember the hierarchy that God created and it is not proper for you to correct men.Unless they are your sons.
Leading comes first then obedience,This is the most anti-catholic thing i've ever read. Women, and men, have to obey, as a matter of religion. Even if superiors are unjust, the duty to obey remains. Obedience isn't conditional. Unless you don't care about heaven.
God didn't give you authority over me. The only one who has authority over me in this forum is the moderator. Let's put things in a proper perspective. If Matthew says I am out of line, I will listen to him.I never said all men have authority over you.
Why is it difficult for some men on here to comprehend the protectiveness parents have regarding their daughters (age 14 -17) from men “burning with lust” or struggling with concupiscence of the flesh? Especially from men those men in their upper 30’s? You seem to be trying to change our minds with each new thread coming along. I understand full well men and women are different in that regard. You seem to be willing to educate the ladies and men who disagree with you on this but can’t you see the apprehension parents have knowing well that you are looking at our daughters in a way that they are not mature enough to handle? The church does not encourage long engagements for a reason.A woman was expressing her thought on the matter and the men instead of trying to understand her point of view got all upset because they felt she wasn't undestanding them. The men accuse the women of being overly emotional, too protective, and prideful. The men didn't even address the concern. I stepped in with my comments to point out the miscommunication and then all I get is how unlady like and disobedient I am. :facepalm:
This is the most anti-catholic thing i've ever read. Women, and men, have to obey, as a matter of religion. Even if superiors are unjust, the duty to obey remains. Obedience isn't conditional. Unless you don't care about heaven.If you don't have someone telling you what to do then you can't obey. I obey the Catholic church, pre vatican 2, I obey my husband, I obey my priest, I obey the moderator of this forum.
A woman was expressing her thought on the matter andthe men instead of trying to understand her point of view got all upset because you felt she wasn't undestanding you. The men accuse the women of being overly emotiona, too protective, and prideful. The men didn't even address the concern. I stepped in with my comments to point out the miscommunication and then all I get is how unlady like and disobedient I am. :facepalm:The only people talking about 14-17 yr olds are women. The topic was 18-22 year old ADULT WOMEN being open to slightly older men. Discussion of 14-17 yr olds is off-topic and manipulative.
If you don't have someone telling you what to do then you can't obey. I obey the Catholic church, pre vatican 2, I obey my husband, I obey my priest, I obey the moderator of this forum.You're always asking how society can be better. Then you put limits on who you will obey. You just epitomized the problem and you don’t even realize it.
If you Anonymous posters are going to twist my words to shut me down that is your perogitive it is a free forum.
If you don't have someone telling you what to do then you can't obey. I obey the Catholic church, pre vatican 2, I obey my husband, I obey my priest, I obey the moderator of this forum.Yeah then men have same small parameters to lead and help that you do to obey.
If you Anonymous posters are going to twist my words to shut me down that is your perogitive it is a free forum.
A woman was expressing her thought on the matter and the men instead of trying to understand her point of view got all upset because they felt she wasn't undestanding them. The men accuse the women of being overly emotional, too protective, and prideful. The men didn't even address the concern. I stepped in with my comments to point out the miscommunication and then all I get is how unlady like and disobedient I am. :facepalm:Has it occurred to you that they may be right? Regardless of your feelings?
If you don't have someone telling you what to do then you can't obey. I obey the Catholic church, pre vatican 2, I obey my husband, I obey my priest, I obey the moderator of this forum.What that guy had a problem with is that you think its a free for all outside of those authorities you listed.
If you Anonymous posters are going to twist my words to shut me down that is your perogitive it is a free forum.
You're always asking how society can be better. Then you put limits on who you will obey. You just epitomized the problem and you don’t even realize it.You are funny. I don't even know you are a man because this is an anonymous post.
If you Anonymous posters are going to twist my words to shut me down that is your perogitive it is a free forum.If you had any self/reflection, you’d shut yourself down. You’re spazzing out because you’re being corrected. Feminists typically can’t handle this.
If you don't acknowledge the fears of women, then you will never get what you want. Your response is extremely immature.I was told to stop tone policing.
Catholic women are fearful of men who are hyper focused on the age gap between a woman and a man in marriage.:facepalm: Women are the ones who are hyper focused on it, calling older men perverts.
:facepalm: Women are the ones who are hyper focused on it, calling older men perverts.Can you quote that? And I have never called older men perverts.
The only people talking about 14-17 yr olds are women. The topic was 18-22 year old ADULT WOMEN being open to slightly older men. Discussion of 14-17 yr olds is off-topic and manipulative.Are you new here? There have been multiple threads on here discussing the readiness of women ages 14-17 for marriage. Not off topic in a thread about age gap.
I think you are missing the most hilarious irony here is that all the different men posting on this thread ARE trying to lead. By stating the Truth.Lol, Truth? It’s an opinion that an age gap is desirable or undesirable. Opinion does not equal truth.
Are you new here? There have been multiple threads on here discussing the readiness of women ages 14-17 for marriage. Not off topic in a thread about age gap.In this day and age, no one is ready to marry before 17 (and even then, it's a stretch, but i've known it to work out). The maturity gap between a 14 yr old and a 17 year old is large.
Are you new here? There have been multiple threads on here discussing the readiness of women ages 14-17 for marriage. Not off topic in a thread about age gap.Yes, that was not also creepy, but led many former members of CI to leave.
Yes, that was not also creepy, but led many former members of CI to leave.Yeah I was pretty disturbed by it. A terrible look for trads. Right now it says 1 member and 31 guests viewing this topic. People are watching.
If you don't acknowledge the fears of women, then you will never get what you want. Your response is extremely immature.The fears of women are irrational and based on how they feel. If he's tall and handsome he's sweet and caring. If he's ugly he's a creep and a weirdo.
A gentleman’s wealth invariably governs the comeliness of the bride he secures.I think his face is more important.
I can understand you as a man coming to this conclusion, but you are not correct here, at least about me. I may be emotional about this, but I cannot get over the idea of a man in his mid thirties wanting to be with my teenage daughter. My husband feels the same way. Age gap after a girl is20 is fine, even if the man is 20 plus years older. The men who are upset over this opinion are not helping me change my mind, that’s for sure. There is a man though who disagrees with me that I would be more willing to discuss ideas with as he seems more even tempered and I would prefer my daughter marry him at age 18, even if he is in his low thirties.How do you 'feel' about a man in this 20s being interested in your teenage daughter?
The fears of women are irrational and based on how they feel. If he's tall and handsome he's sweet and caring. If he's ugly he's a creep and a weirdo.The idea that you think women are that shallow shows that you have no understanding of women.
I never said all men have authority over you.Unfortunately most woman do not understand this. So many girls are loud, rude, disrespectful and wonder why no man wants to marry them. Feminism has been the reason why.
You need to understand that it's not like outside of your husband it's some kind of free for all.
you are lower by your very nature than every man. And must respect every man in a way that is different than you treat women.
Individualism, especially in the West has corrputed our sense of social hierarchy.
Authority is not the same as hierarchy. Though authority is born out of hierarchy.
The only people talking about 14-17 yr olds are women. The topic was 18-22 year old ADULT WOMEN being open to slightly older men. Discussion of 14-17 yr olds is off-topic and manipulative.The first post literally talks about elvis and a 14yr old girl. People at the time where fine with it but now it's "grooming".
The only people talking about 14-17 yr olds are women. The topic was 18-22 year old ADULT WOMEN being open to slightly older men. Discussion of 14-17 yr olds is off-topic and manipulative.Are you American? American tend to care more about the 18yr old nonsense. There is no difference between 17 and 18. The law of the Church says 14 is the youngest a woman can get married, that means that 14 is fine. Stop being a Puritan.
Yeah I was pretty disturbed by it. A terrible look for trads. Right now it says 1 member and 31 guests viewing this topic. People are watching.Oh yes it's so terrible that the law of the Church states that a woman can be married as young as 14.
And I sure miss the ladies that left.
Yeah I was pretty disturbed by it. A terrible look for trads. Right now it says 1 member and 31 guests viewing this topic. People are watching.So some feminists left because some men wanted to talk about the problems they have with a highly feminist and deranged society that stigmatizes a healthy and normal age gap that was common place throughout history?
And I sure miss the ladies that left.
The idea that you think women are that shallow shows that you have no understanding of women.Reality, by watching what women do and say not just how they tell you want they do and say.
Who taught you that?
Are you American? American tend to care more about the 18yr old nonsense. There is no difference between 17 and 18. The law of the Church says 14 is the youngest a woman can get married, that means that 14 is fine. Stop being a Puritan.14 is allowable. Doesn’t mean it’s fine or appropriate. 17/18 is light years more mature than 14.
Reality, by watching what women do and say not just how they tell you want they do and say.Are these women on the internet or at your chapel?
14 is allowable. Doesn’t mean it’s fine or appropriate. 17/18 is light years more mature than 14.The fact that's it's allowable means it's fine and appropriate, you are speaking in emotional contradictions.
The fact that's it's allowable means it's fine and appropriate, you are speaking in emotional contradictions.Allowable does mean the same as appropriate. :facepalm: And fine typically means normal and acceptable. Allowable is not the same thing as normal, acceptable.
Allowable does mean the same as appropriate. :facepalm: And fine typically means normal and acceptable. Allowable is not the same thing as normal, acceptable.Fine does not mean normal/acceptable. But even changing the words you are wrong. It's only not 'fine' in modern society because of feminists who can't compete with the younger gals. It was certainly fine and acceptable in days gone by.
The Church allows people to only go to confession once a year, before stepping in and forcing them.
Going to confession only once a year is NOT fine, nor is it appropriate for those trying to save their souls.
Fine does not mean normal/acceptable. But even changing the words you are wrong. It's only not 'fine' in modern society because of feminists who can't compete with the younger gals. It was certainly fine and acceptable in days gone by.I’m curious to know- how many of the dads here on CathInfo would be “fine” with a man in his 30’s chatting up his 14 year old daughter after Mass with the intention of marrying her when she is 14 or 15.
I’m curious to know- how many of the dads here on CathInfo would be “fine” with a man in his 30’s chatting up his 14 year old daughter after Mass with the intention of marrying her when she is 14 or 15.
A man who is interested will ask the parents for courtship, using the term chatting up is dishonest. Should a man no 'talk' to younger girls at all?
You like to blame it on the women, but let’s be real, I highly doubt any father here on CathInfo would entertain it and for good reason. Are they all feminists too?
Potentially based off their reasoning, if you are assuming 'chatting up' alone that's different from a casual conversation around others.
It’s absurd. We live in different times. Girls at 14 years of age today are not like they used to be back in the day. They lack maturity. Just because it was permitted doesn’t mean it was ideal. It was mostly done of necessity due to poverty. They aren’t even done growing at 14. They are literally still a child.
Feminism urgh, they aren't literally a child but a young adult. You know the Church used to consider 12 to be the youngest age for marriage but that's another issue because there is a BIG difference between 12vs14
Do you know why people are immature nowdays? It's because people like yourself treat them like children instead of raising them as adults.
How do you 'feel' about a man in this 20s being interested in your teenage daughter?Pink text poster could you answer this?
Pink text poster could you answer this?The question was how would I feel about a man in his 20’s courting a teenage daughter of mine. Answer: if my daughter was 14-15, definitely no. If she was 16 and I knew the man and his family, ok, but only with supervision would I allow him to court her. She could start making wedding plan her last year of high school. That’s just my personal opinion and I certainly wouldn’t judge another for a more conservative perspective.
The question was how would I feel about a man in his 20’s courting a teenage daughter of mine. Answer: if my daughter was 14-15, definitely no. If she was 16 and I knew the man and his family, ok, but only with supervision would I allow him to court her. She could start making wedding plan her last year of high school. That’s just my personal opinion and I certainly wouldn’t judge another for a more conservative perspective.Ok your answer is quite 'normal', I guess you think there is a big difference between 20s vs 30s, even though I think a 30s man is better equipped to be a father and husband. Also I think there should be supervision in courtship regardless of age because a man and woman who are not married should never be left alone together.
Ok your answer is quite 'normal', I guess you think there is a big difference between 20s vs 30s, even though I think a 30s man is better equipped to be a father and husband. Also I think there should be supervision in courtship regardless of age because a man and woman who are not married should never be left alone together.I think you sound like a well intentioned man and I would venture to say that I would approve of someone like you. In real world situations there are always exceptions but I still wouldn’t be comfortable for my daughter dating any man, including young ones, before age 17.
I think you sound like a well intentioned man and I would venture to say that I would approve of someone like you. In real world situations there are always exceptions but I still wouldn’t be comfortable for my daughter dating any man, including young ones, before age 17.Yes I understand where you are coming from, since the Church does indeed clearly teach, that for under 18s parental consent is REQUIRED for marriage. There are certainly girls who are um 'well developed' by even 14 (to the point you would assume they were older based on their looks), but in other cases like a family member of mine, she did not reach menarche until 13.
Yes I understand where you are coming from, since the Church does indeed clearly teach, that for under 18s parental consent is REQUIRED for marriage. There are certainly girls who are um 'well developed' by even 14 (to the point you would assume they were older based on their looks), but in other cases like a family member of mine, she did not reach menarche until 13.Since we are talking generalizations, I would agree with you about age 18 being ideal for a woman. For men, maybe mid 20’s because of the way men are built but 30’s would be ok if I knew the man (even if he was poor but a good worker and could hold down a job). The big thing is, willing to work hard to provide for his family. And like I said earlier, my husband and I would always be willing to financially help our financially struggling children with no strings attached. My grandparents did this for my parents who were very, very poor when they first married at ages 19 and 18. By the time they passed away they handed down a sizable estate for each of their 5 children. So God does help those who love Him. Money is not what it’s all about in this life and parents need to teach their daughters to be frugal and giving.
If you don't mind, what ages do you think is ideal for marriage for both man and woman? I personally agree with Aristotle for about 18 for most women, with exceptions being case by case, but for men I do not agree with him on 37 for the man (but I do understand the big advantage 37 has for a man in terms of finance, life exp and maturity) but around 25-27 because I think most girls do not find older guys (too much older or rather old looking) attractive. There are certainly some men who look much younger than their age say early 20s while being late 20s and this may give him more appeal with the younger ladies but most men do not age like this (especially if they do not take care of themselves). I am not a parent so I don't have personal bias e.g "Daddy's princess" for not letting my daughter marry, but some parents are like this, they can't accept they have a young woman and not a little girl even if she will always be their little girl, and this can lead to disastrous consequences if they rebel due to not being treated seriously.
Since we are talking generalizations, I would agree with you about age 18 being ideal for a woman. For men, maybe mid 20’s because of the way men are built but 30’s would be ok if I knew the man (even if he was poor but a good worker and could hold down a job). The big thing is, willing to work hard to provide for his family. And like I said earlier, my husband and I would always be willing to financially help our financially struggling children with no strings attached. My grandparents did this for my parents who were very, very poor when they first married at ages 19 and 18. By the time they passed away they handed down a sizable estate for each of their 5 children. So God does help those who love Him. Money is not what it’s all about in this life and parents need to teach their daughters to be frugal and giving.
Aristotle is not God; of course people can disagree with him.
So you disagree with Aristotle.
Aristotle is not God; of course people can disagree with him.Not to mention he was speaking of the times he was living in.
Wasn't Aristotle 37 when he recommended 37 for men?
So you disagree with Aristotle.
lol, the naivety of women.
Aristotle is not God; of course people can disagree with him.
Wasn't Aristotle 37 when he recommended 37 for men?Takes a woman to try to make things personal with one of the greatest philsophers in human history.
Not to mention he was speaking of the times he was living in.And even greater one most likely.
I wonder what age gap he would recommend these days.
Takes a woman to try to make things personal with one of the greatest philsophers in human history.Correct i was wrong, he was 61.
And no, probably not. He was probably older.
I just think its so funny when a woman thinks she knows better than aristotle.When answering this particular man’s question, I did not claim that I knew better than Aristotle. I simply answered his question about my personal opinion which you are degrading by making assumptions about my disposition . Aristotle isn’t infallible and he doesn’t live in our times. Not to mention, I said an exception would be made if my husband and I knew the man in his 30’s. But to be sure, we definitely wouldn’t consider a condescending man such as yourself if it was made evident to us.
When answering this particular man’s question, I did not claim that I knew better than Aristotle. I simply answered his question about my personal opinion which you are degrading by making assumptions about my disposition . Aristotle isn’t infallible and he doesn’t live in our times. Not to mention, I said an exception would be made if my husband and I knew the man in his 30’s. But to be sure, we definitely wouldn’t consider a condescending man such as yourself if it was made evident to us.
You’re probably right. And I would defer to my husband’s decision.
Rather than get defensive, try to be more humble and deferential.
Accept the consequences of the words you utter.
You obviously were degrading Aristotle. And your "exception" was insincere.
You have an exaggerated sense of your own self importance in this decision because you speak as if you really are the one with the main and final say. Your husband has probably allowed you too much liberty for far too long, and you think this is normal. "Normal" by our perverse societies standards, and even among trads. But not normal by what is right and just.
Do you mean this guy?
So you disagree with Aristotle.
lol, the naivety of women.
“As to the exposure of children, let there be a law that no deformed child shall live. However, let no child be exposed because of excess population, but when couples have too many children, let abortions be procured before sense and life have begun.”Sorry, folks, I am note deferring to Aristotle for any marriage/family considerations.
Do you mean this guy? Sorry, folks, I am note deferring to Aristotle for any marriage/family considerations.*not
Do you mean this guy? Sorry, folks, I am note deferring to Aristotle for any marriage/family considerations.
Sheesh...can we get any more uncharitable here, folks?
Only someone pig ignorant of their faith or just outright guilty of the sin of pride would say something so utterly stupid as what you just said.
Sheesh...can we get any more uncharitable here, folks?
Sheesh...can we get any more uncharitable here, folks?Lol. Rather than focus on the the insult to one of the greatest philsophers of all time by some WOMAN, she focuses on how "uncharitable" the just indignation in reaction to that is.
"Worldsaway and Everlast honestly crack me up with how little civility they manage to show around here.See ya
As for Aristotle, he really has no bearing on a sacramental marriage or the raising of children. Do we seriously care about his opinions on marital ages from thousands of years ago, in a completely different world? So much has changed since then. We can take pieces of his thinking when they’re useful, sure—but he was still just a man, and a flawed one like the rest of us.
At this point, the whole topic has run its course. I’m not sure what the original poster expected to get out of it. From what I can see, nobody’s changed their mind, and the conversation has pretty much dissolved into everyone taking shots at each other."
This is my last post on the this topic- feel free to answer or not- it's a moot point.
"Worldsaway and Everlast honestly crack me up with how little civility they manage to show around here.
As for Aristotle, he really has no bearing on a sacramental marriage or the raising of children. Do we seriously care about his opinions on marital ages from thousands of years ago, in a completely different world? So much has changed since then. We can take pieces of his thinking when they’re useful, sure—but he was still just a man, and a flawed one like the rest of us.
At this point, the whole topic has run its course. I’m not sure what the original poster expected to get out of it. From what I can see, nobody’s changed their mind, and the conversation has pretty much dissolved into everyone taking shots at each other."
This is my last post on the this topic- feel free to answer or not- it's a moot point.
I would genuinely like to hear what actual seasoned fathers on CathInfo have to say about it. Fathers with girls in the 12-18 year age range, but really any father with girls, even girls that have already left the coop. I’ve heard enough from unmarried or newly married men on the subject. I hesitate to make yet another thread on it but it sure would be nice if it wasn’t anonymous. The anonymous section just kills it.
Married men with daughters, would you entertain a man in his 30’s asking to court your 14 year old daughter? What about 16?
It is a pertinent conversation, if only it could be approached without accusations and insults.
I would genuinely like to hear what actual seasoned fathers on CathInfo have to say about it. Fathers with girls in the 12-18 year age range, but really any father with girls, even girls that have already left the coop. I’ve heard enough from unmarried or newly married men on the subject. I hesitate to make yet another thread on it but it sure would be nice if it wasn’t anonymous. The anonymous section just kills it.
Married men with daughters, would you entertain a man in his 30’s asking to court your 14 year old daughter? What about 16?
It is a pertinent conversation, if only it could be approached without accusations and insults.
I would genuinely like to hear what actual seasoned fathers on CathInfo have to say about it. Fathers with girls in the 12-18 year age range, but really any father with girls, even girls that have already left the coop. I’ve heard enough from unmarried or newly married men on the subject. I hesitate to make yet another thread on it but it sure would be nice if it wasn’t anonymous. The anonymous section just kills it.I'm married with 1 boy, and a girl on the way.
Married men with daughters, would you entertain a man in his 30’s asking to court your 14 year old daughter? What about 16?
It is a pertinent conversation, if only it could be approached without accusations and insults.
Sheesh...can we get any more uncharitable here, folks?:confused: Yes. You must be new here. ;) :cowboy:
I would genuinely like to hear what actual seasoned fathers on CathInfo have to say about it. Fathers with girls in the 12-18 year age range, but really any father with girls, even girls that have already left the coop. I’ve heard enough from unmarried or newly married men on the subject. I hesitate to make yet another thread on it but it sure would be nice if it wasn’t anonymous. The anonymous section just kills it.
Married men with daughters, would you entertain a man in his 30’s asking to court your 14 year old daughter? What about 16?
It is a pertinent conversation, if only it could be approached without accusations and insults.
"Worldsaway and Everlast honestly crack me up with how little civility they manage to show around here.My most recent post on this thread was Nov. 3. I think I managed to remain fairly civil during that conversation given the idiocy I was up against. And if your're not referring to that conversation, I don't know what you're talking about. You'll know when I make a post because my username will be visible
As for Aristotle, he really has no bearing on a sacramental marriage or the raising of children. Do we seriously care about his opinions on marital ages from thousands of years ago, in a completely different world? So much has changed since then. We can take pieces of his thinking when they’re useful, sure—but he was still just a man, and a flawed one like the rest of us.
At this point, the whole topic has run its course. I’m not sure what the original poster expected to get out of it. From what I can see, nobody’s changed their mind, and the conversation has pretty much dissolved into everyone taking shots at each other."
This is my last post on the this topic- feel free to answer or not- it's a moot point.
What opposition to age gaps? People will consider the age gap in a real situation. Do you have a real situation you are talking about?
Nowhere in human history do we see the normalization of the opposition to age gaps outside of the late 20th century and feminism.
Aristotle is just chosen as being representative of the wisdom of all ages.
St. Thomas Aquinas uses him as the framework for his entire summa.
So to run him down like that shows how totally ruined your mind is by the sins of the modern age.
Please get back in the kitchen and off the internet.
Your husband and family need you doing more productive things than this.
No I really am because these are questions to grapple with. My oldest is going on 10 and starting to notice boys. My husband and I have had quite a few discussions lately about this topic and other topics considering girls coming of age because our children are ALL girls.
You're not "genuine" and you're not interested. If all the married men on the forum came out together like a ton of bricks in favor of the historical norm you would still find some way around it.
Why wont you just admit that? Be honest. It's the anonymous section :)
What opposition to age gaps? People will consider the age gap in a real situation. Do you have a real situation you are talking about?Literally every society before the twentieth society and outside the US especially lived a more communal, life where they cared for their elderly.
Was Aristotle tempted by women like men are today?
Aristotle was talking about ideals based on the understanding that at 18 and 37 the peak of their genders would come at the equivalent time. Was he only basing this on child rearing? if yes then what would society do with all the women who are alive way past the death of their husband. If he died at 80, she would only be 61 and would probably live another 20 years without him. Would that then truly be an ideal having a population of women who would have to be cared for by the rest of society? When we talk about these things we sometimes do need to pay attention to the whole picture. Thoughts?
No I really am because these are questions to grapple with. My oldest is going on 10 and starting to notice boys. My husband and I have had quite a few discussions lately about this topic and other topics considering girls coming of age because our children are ALL girls.Ok then let's see.
It makes sense to visit with other experienced Catholics about it. Like Matthew said, they didn’t start seriously thinking about the whole “finishing” aspect with their girls until the time got closer. When you’re in the thick of it you see things with a more broad and complete perspective.
Literally every society before the twentieth society and outside the US especially lived a more communal, life where they cared for their elderly.Yes and we don't live in those times. Stop trying to live by an ideal that can't and doesn't exist in the 21st century.
Troll
Only someone pig ignorant of their faith or just outright guilty of the sin of pride would say something so utterly stupid as what you just said.
I see nothing wrong with what she said, Aristotle is not God and hence can be wrong.
Rather than get defensive, try to be more humble and deferential.
Accept the consequences of the words you utter.
You obviously were degrading Aristotle. And your "exception" was insincere.
You have an exaggerated sense of your own self importance in this decision because you speak as if you really are the one with the main and final say. Your husband has probably allowed you too much liberty for far too long, and you think this is normal. "Normal" by our perverse societies standards, and even among trads. But not normal by what is right and just.
Your response is very rash and out of line. They quoted Aristotle and said they disagree with him. Are you another croix account?
Only someone pig ignorant of their faith or just outright guilty of the sin of pride would say something so utterly stupid as what you just said.
Talk about projection.
Ah yes. When you have no arguments left break out the "you're not being charitable" line.
Maybe the lack of charity started with the stupid remark? A lack of charity against the Truth?
Maybe you should practice a little humility?
"Worldsaway and Everlast honestly crack me up with how little civility they manage to show around here.Ah but do you know what hasn't changed for thousands of years? Human nature.
As for Aristotle, he really has no bearing on a sacramental marriage or the raising of children. Do we seriously care about his opinions on marital ages from thousands of years ago, in a completely different world? So much has changed since then. We can take pieces of his thinking when they’re useful, sure—but he was still just a man, and a flawed one like the rest of us.
At this point, the whole topic has run its course. I’m not sure what the original poster expected to get out of it. From what I can see, nobody’s changed their mind, and the conversation has pretty much dissolved into everyone taking shots at each other."
This is my last post on the this topic- feel free to answer or not- it's a moot point.
Thanks for your eloquent answer Mathew.
As for honorable courtship at 14 or 16, that would totally distract a girl from what she needs to be learning, studying, and doing during her "finishing off" period before she comes of age. But the finishing off period is something I never thought about until a few years ago.
Matthew if you don't mind answering. How do you control/limit your childrens online/screen time? Something I am thinking of in regards to my future children.
My girls are still too sheltered at that age. They aren't "out in the world" yet. They don't know the birds & bees yet. Also, their homeschool workload gets pretty serious around age 15 or 16. We're talking college classes, advanced AP classes, etc.
In our particular family (due to genetics, etc.) we are very high IQ, so my wife and I decided to have some decently high standards for our children's homeschool education.
In modern day America, the culture and country in which we live, it is EXPECTED for a person to complete high school. That is one thing that has changed from the Middle Ages.
I'm not saying they have to go to college (that is the next step many people take -- they want the girl to not just have a HS diploma, but a college degree as well "just in case")
But I think having a high school diploma isn't too much to ask. The young man can have some patience. She'll still have some fertility left at 18, come on now. (I'm being facetious here, but actually pregnancy under the age of 18 isn't even ideal from a biological standpoint. And for Trad Catholics, marriage = likely pregnancy).
As for honorable courtship at 14 or 16, that would totally distract a girl from what she needs to be learning, studying, and doing during her "finishing off" period before she comes of age. But the finishing off period is something I never thought about until a few years ago.
Try to consider the parents point of view. You have children. You are responsible for them. You want them to be happy. You love them. You want to teach them the important things you know about the world, so they don't have to learn things the hard way. HOW DO YOU DO THAT IF THEY COULD BE GONE AT 16?
Just for starters, MANY topics you can't introduce until you've cleared the prerequisite course, "Birds & Bees 101". And do you REALLY want to take a totally innocent girl and introduce things to them they REALLY don't need to think or worry about?
I'm not going to introduce deep adult topics too early just so they can grow up a few years early. That's not necessary at all.
I don't just throw my kids into the deep end of knowledge, or the world, and hope they swim. I allow them to be kids when they're kids. (except I do teach them to work and practice self-mortification -- doing what you don't want to do -- from an early age)
I insist they learn all the basics, including knowing how to cook, clean, etc. Both boys and girls. But I allow them time to play, have fun, and be kids. I'm preparing them for a REALISTIC future -- which, let's be honest, will be mostly work and certainly not all fun & games.
But no, I don't teach my daughters to have a GenZ-like attitude towards age. As homeschoolers, my kids aren't obsessed with limiting all socializing to a narrow age range plus 2 years and minus 2 years from their own age. That's not realistic at all. Just look at any office or workplace. Or convent, monastery, etc. Nowhere in the real world are you sectioned off with 30 or 50 people born in the same year as you. Public school is artificial as hell, designed to create mindless drones for corporate offices, and destructive in every way.
I'm all for preparing my children with the proper information at the proper age. But until they have to go study/work/etc. out there in the world, they don't need to know all the gritty details about men and how the world works.
Maybe the answer would be different for some public school girls whose innocence was taken away years earlier -- both in terms of knowledge and experience -- but neither of those things apply to my Trad, homeschooled daughters.
. My oldest is going on 10 and starting to notice boys.What does it mean to 'notice'?
You said you only started thinking about this a few years ago. Is this because they were too young to seriously think about it or because the topic didn't occur to you?
Quote from: Änσnymσus (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=77291.msg1006049#msg1006049) 11/14/2025, 8:50:37 PM
Matthew if you don't mind answering. How do you control/limit your childrens online/screen time? Something I am thinking of in regards to my future children.
. But I've learned a lot through raw experience, I'll tell you that much!I would mind hearing more about this (perhaps in a different thread) as I do wish to homeschool when I get married.
But my oldest, a boy, I thought I would have more time once he was "old enough" -- say at age 16. But to my shock, he was basically "gone" at 16. He was either doing SERIOUS school classes, gone to college classes, or working a job (full time when school was out). And then right after high school he actually went to college. I feel like I got gypped out of 2 years of "finishing" time I thought I would have.Since girls are usually 2 or so years ahead of boys in development, do you think your daughters may be gone quicker than you think?
Ah but do you know what hasn't changed for thousands of years? Human nature.
What does it mean to 'notice'?She’s aware of their presence in a way she wasn’t before. Before they were just another kid to play with. Now she’s suddenly shy around them. Wants to be seen, but no longer in a rough and tumble type of way (at homeschool co-op the kids run around and play before and after class).
Many trad girls are finding this out now. The hard way. All they needed was good, open minded fathers to tell them to drop their frivolous standards (not the good ones obviously), and accept that they are not going to get everything they want. The wanted their dads to take an interest. And now we have single women all over the resistance who, either are not going to get married at all or marry badly.The one's that are okay dropping the standards are yep.. you guessed it, danger zone women getting to that age. What a cohencidence. And then they marry the one guy who has been orbiting the past 10 years. lol
this is the trad equivalent of "Hoe phase to trad wife" thing we hear bandied around on social media. Trad equivalent in that the "hoes" herself out to worldly ideas, and then later, when its too late, decides she is "going to settle". Only to find that the only men interested in her are the weaker variety of men.
If their fathers had only explained to them that men are attracted to docile women, not prideful witches who think their "education" is a flex, then they might have had a happy life.
Why? Because, as I explained and did admit, there is a maturity problem with young men now. There is also an economic issue of affording a house.I don't recall YOU saying this.
She’s aware of their presence in a way she wasn’t before. Before they were just another kid to play with. Now she’s suddenly shy around them. Wants to be seen, but no longer in a rough and tumble type of way (at homeschool co-op the kids run around and play before and after class).Aw how cute, anyway I think people can see even from the bold line that you still were underestimating how quickly children develop, especially girls.
Today while getting ready for homeschool co-op instead of wearing a basic skirt and blouse, she chose a jumper with floral embellishments, and really put herself together quite lovely. Her sisters giggled and said that it’s because a certain boy might be there and the poor girls face turned all shades of red.
This area of child rearing is all new to us (my husband and I) hence the discussions of late. Obviously she is a long ways away from courtship. I was not expecting to have to talk to my 9 year old about love, courtship, marriage and all of that until much later. She has been asking questions about marrying and who to marry, etc. Our girls are all very innocent. Her curiosity is natural, not manufactured or helped along by media. We don’t have TV programming so I know they’re not watching weird shows that teach them how to be “boy crazy” and they don’t keep private audience with friends. All literature is closely inspected before they read so they are very sheltered.
I was raised much differently than we are raising our girls. My husband as well. Neither us were raised Catholic. We really want to do things right. Raise up good girls so that they will be deserving of good men and have the best shot at gaining heaven with their future spouses. Our girls already know that we hope they will stay with us until they marry or enter the convent. Our hope is that they find a suitable spouse and marry young.
The one's that are okay dropping the standards are yep.. you guessed it, danger zone women getting to that age. What a cohencidence. And then they marry the one guy who has been orbiting the past 10 years. lolDo you think the girls should drop their standards if it means race mixing? I think a lot of people don't realise that it's better for the white girls to marry a much older white man than a young non-white.
I shouldn't laugh, but that's the cold hard truth.
Do you think the girls should drop their standards if it means race mixing? I think a lot of people don't realise that it's better for the white girls to marry a much older white man than a young non-white.I didn't know race mixing among trad girls was an issue. :laugh1: (I don't care about other seculars or N.O.'s)
Quote from: Änσnymσus (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=77291.msg1006074#msg1006074) 11/15/2025, 3:51:04 AM
Since girls are usually 2 or so years ahead of boys in development, do you think your daughters may be gone quicker than you think?
She’s aware of their presence in a way she wasn’t before. Before they were just another kid to play with. Now she’s suddenly shy around them. Wants to be seen, but no longer in a rough and tumble type of way (at homeschool co-op the kids run around and play before and after class).I wonder if this response is wholly her own or partially instigated by playground chatter. My girls have never done this, but they also have never done co-op and their chosen extracurricular activities are typically ~85% female.
Today while getting ready for homeschool co-op instead of wearing a basic skirt and blouse, she chose a jumper with floral embellishments, and really put herself together quite lovely. Her sisters giggled and said that it’s because a certain boy might be there and the poor girls face turned all shades of red.
I wonder if this response is wholly her own or partially instigated by playground chatter. My girls have never done this, but they also have never done co-op and their chosen extracurricular activities are typically ~85% female.Maybe it has to do with temperament. When I was seven I remember vividly wanting to kiss the cheek of the boy sitting in front of me. Whatever that attraction was scared me so much I don't think I wanted to kiss another guy until I was 19.
Whatever that attraction was scared me so much I don't think I wanted to kiss another guy until I was 19.:laugh1:
I wonder if this response is wholly her own or partially instigated by playground chatter. My girls have never done this, but they also have never done co-op and their chosen extracurricular activities are typically ~85% female.I guess it could be a possibility but I don’t think so. The girls are outnumbered in this co-op by about 3 to 1. Several of the families had all boys and no girls. We have found that imbalance rather frustrating, but the co-op has been worthwhile educationally so we continue.
Agreed, and this is the perfect response to the prideful rejection of literally all of human widsom since our first parents.You sound disgruntled, are you an unmarried older man?
Nobody is saying that most marriages need to be age gaps.
Whats new is the rejection of the age gap.
We are witnessing the almost organized gaslighting by the trad feminists on this forum to try convince normal people that it is somehow bad to allow your teenage girl to marry an older guy, cos "times have changed".
You know something, times have changed, and if that means anything, WE NEED MORE AGE GAP MARRIAGES, not whatever the normal amount was in previous eras. Why? Because, as I explained and did admit, there is a maturity problem with young men now. There is also an economic issue of affording a house. So if people keep forcing the "must marry within 5-10 years older and no more" nonsense, then their girls may not find anyone. And this won't be realized until it is too late.
Many trad girls are finding this out now. The hard way. All they needed was good, open minded fathers to tell them to drop their frivolous standards (not the good ones obviously), and accept that they are not going to get everything they want. The wanted their dads to take an interest. And now we have single women all over the resistance who, either are not going to get married at all or marry badly.
this is the trad equivalent of "Hoe phase to trad wife" thing we hear bandied around on social media. Trad equivalent in that the "hoes" herself out to worldly ideas, and then later, when its too late, decides she is "going to settle". Only to find that the only men interested in her are the weaker variety of men.
If their fathers had only explained to them that men are attracted to docile women, not prideful witches who think their "education" is a flex, then they might have had a happy life.
Oh well, yawl will find out for sure at your judgment!
And some of the younger girls think having boyfriends is ok.... this is an sspx btw but I personally would be less interested in any woman who has already had a boyfriend before me. I just don't the idea of being 2nd to my own wife to another man, even if they haven't kissed. I am disappointing but not surprised some think that secular bf/gf dating is ok.boyfriend, or someone they courted?
boyfriend, or someone they courted?Not sure what you mean. There is an sspx girl with a bf, they are similar age but he is in the process of converting.
Not sure what you mean. There is an sspx girl with a bf, they are similar age but he is in the process of converting.ah okay. I see.
As for me, I don't mind if a girl has courted previously with a chaperone, but i do mind if they had a secular bf/gf relationship.
When I talk to my friends about what their future boyfriend or husband should look like, they never say something out of this world or illogical. It's mostly some mens wrong impression of women or their excuse to never try when they say women have high standards.This women thinks her standards are 'normal' and 'rational'.
For example This man is 💫ideal💫 to me : 3 years older or my age (must be around my age and no more than 3 year age gab betweenus), 5cms taller, same socioeconomic level as my family, have a job (any job at all), be attractive (because yes I also need to be simulated if we are to have s)
These are my standards that I could think of that are rational , to be in a relationship with a man. I don't think they are too high and even if they are I cant go any lower because otherwise I dont think I would want to be in that relationship and would just be unnecessary resentment between us. And no one wants or deserves that.
I don't want a less attractive guy as I already have my stuff together and if I'm sleeping with a guy he should be as attractive to me as I'm attractive to him.
I'm willing to not be in a relationship as I have everything I need from my parents and my job and if I'm ever in any length of s..ual relationship with a man he should be attractive and stimulating for me because why would I ever gorce myself to have s with a man I'm not attracted to.
I think a lot of people don’t realize just how small the pool can get sometimes. You absolutely have the right to be into whoever you’re into, and I totally agree that you shouldn’t pursue someone you’re not genuinely interested in.
For example, I’m a man whose type tends to be taller women, but I recognize that’s an uphill battle, so I’ll usually compromise on that or other parts of my type to find a better partner overall.
That said, hypothetically...
Say you live in a city like Portland, which has the 25th largest metro area with around 2.5 million people.
- Roughly 1.25 million of those are men.
- About 321,000 are between 20–29. If you’re 26, that narrows it to roughly 140,000 people.
- If you’re looking for someone of similar socioeconomic status (assuming middle class), that cuts it roughly in half to 70,000.
- You mentioned height, assuming you mean 5′8″ and up, about 65% of men qualify, bringing it down to 45,000.
- About 45% of men are already in relationships, leaving around 20,000. (That number could be lower if you’re a bit older.)
- If you’re selective with the face card and say you find 30% of men attractive, that’s 6,600.
- Remove another 30% for being out of shape or otherwise unattractive, leaving ~4,400.
- If politics matter, around 40% of men identify as conservative (more if white), which brings the number to just under 2,000.
And this still doesn’t account for things like bad personalities, race, unresolved trauma, lack of chemistry in and out the bedroom, religious differences, hygiene, relationship rediness, or mutual interest, and so on...all of which could easily bring that number below 1,000 men in a decently sized metro area.
To someone who is perceiving a 4-5 year age gap as alight...you are literally looking for 1% of men
These numbers aren’t meant to be exact, as I know some of these can fold into each other, but it's to illustrate how quickly preferences can cut at the dating pool.
To be clear, I fully support having standards, but I also wanted to show why some people point out how selective dating can be especially when bringing in in physical attraction (which might be even lower, given how many men don’t take care of themselves).
If politics matter, around 40% of men identify as conservative (more if white), which brings the number to just under 2,000.
This also means you now have to search through 1.25m people to find these 2k guys. Don't worry, it's just 1/1000. If you meet the equivalent of an entire high school class at a large school, you could meet one person! But then again, maybe they're single, or maybe they say the wrong thing over text, or maybe the fucking weather is acting up and you just feel some type of way.
But ya, this is a totally sane way to go about dating.
In theory, most of them you won't run into, at least when actively looking around as obviously a 45 yr old married man or a 85 year old man are included in the 1.25 but not who she should be chasing...but I hear you. I also think there's no sense in her folding on standards if she has them, just acknowledging them and moving the best way possible to give her a chance of finding the guy accordingly is important.
If she was out at a bar, doing intramural sports, or a part of book club where men are also around its more like 1/330. That's what she would have to sift through.
For reference, you have the same odds of winning >50$ on a scratch ticket.
But to meet this guy outside, have him walk up to you, assuming mutual attraction and get off onto the right foot...it'll just take some time
If she was out at a bar, doing intramural sports, or a part of book club where men are also around its more like 1/330. That's what she would have to sift through.
That 1/330 is also wanted by 10 other girls, and those 10 other girls are also texting two other 1/330 at the same time. Then, what happens all three of those 1/330 men go on a single date with these women and decided none of them are interested in being in a relationship with them in reality, as the only thing the women were capable of was creating their precious list and picking him, like they saw on TV. These women are immature and either not ready for a relationship or consciously not willing to enter one. That's why the fertility rate and marriage rate have dropped. That's why everyone is single.
Yeah I was that guy haha, I'm aware. I blame societal conditioning more than anything else, and don't think it's worth getting mad about really.
Also FWIW she may be into guy 1/330, where as another woman may be into 4/330, her type is not everyone's type ,but I do agree that most of these men are probably relatively universally attractive.
I do think if people physically saw this represented at a bar for example it would really shift things. Like if it was women took initiative regularly, the visual of people gathering around this one person would be wild. I saw it when I was younger when there were two women camping out in this guys bedroom, while he was with another woman in a different area of the house.
Some perspective from secular peopleThe only thing that actually matters here was if she thought he was "attractive" as she says after the other nonsense. 'rules' get thrown out if the lady likes you.
This women thinks her standards are 'normal' and 'rational'.
But in reality she is brainwashed.
Non-existent age gap standards= feminisn
Taller = normal but in reality should not make a difference
Socioe status = problematic due to how the enemy has destroyed society and given women working 'right'
To put this into perspective
Hopefully these two online comments by secular people help others here understand the actual reality of finding someone who meets your female 'standards'.
Really visualise the last 2 comments
Basically women want men that are a mix of traditonal things exactly where they want them and progressive things exactly when they want them, while they can act as traditional women when they want, and act as progressive women when they want.
Basically women want men that are a mix of traditonal things exactly where they want them and progressive things exactly when they want them, while they can act as traditional women when they want, and act as progressive women when they want.Yes, that's why even trad girls want a attractive extroverted provider who is a similar age to them yet won't be submissive and obedient and feminine :facepalm:.
For consideration, some of the men who might be having this conversation are in the 21 to 28 age group. If they want an age gap like Aristotle suggested then they are looking at the 2 year olds to 9 years olds. I know men talk in theories with no ill will, but women look at practicalities. I am just saying all this because I want people to understand the frustrations from both sides.Aristotle obviously wasn't suggesting a strict ~17 year age gap across the board.
There was once a thread called something like “Why are so many trads weird?”:laugh2:
In that thread, a woman recounted that while in the basement with her husband and 1 year-old daughter for coffee after Mass, they were approached by a man resembling Mr. Peanut (Monocle, top hat, cane, and 3-piece suit), who introduced himself and proceeded to ask the couple for their daughter’s hand in marriage (ie., arranged). It was not well-received.
I guess I am anomaly. I just assumed that even though women have lists, they really rely on their intuition (emotion, but the useful part) to pick a spouse. By my own standards my husband didn't meet my list, I wanted someone older, he is 2 years younger. I was interested in Asian men, he was white. We have been together 30 years and have a strong marriage. (No I am not in charge, just because people make bad assumptions, it doesn't mean they are true.)No man has any desire to force an age gap. The point is, to counter the pickyness and hyper-unrealistic standards of modern women, which has filtered down to Trads. And no, women aren’t using their intuition or their Faith in making relationship decisions. If they were, there would be no problem. Many Trad women are using worldly measures to pick spouses. And because they are so picky, they pass up men they shouldnt have or they end up settling with men they are unhappy with or they dont get married at all. This hurts women more than men but it also hurts society at large. And that’s the purpose of modern propaganda. To destroy good families. Or to prevent them from happening at all.
To the person who is so worried about finding someone, I really think the demons are using your worry against you. I am sure there are women, who feel that they will never meet the standards of a Traditional Catholic man.
My only advice is to pray for your chosen spouse (even if you don't know who that is yet) and TRUST God to provide.
For consideration, some of the men who might be having this conversation are in the 21 to 28 age group. If they want an age gap like Aristotle suggested then they are looking at the 2 year olds to 9 years olds. I know men talk in theories with no ill will, but women look at practicalities. I am just saying all this because I want people to understand the frustrations from both sides.
I guess I am anomaly. I just assumed that even though women have lists, they really rely on their intuition (emotion, but the useful part) to pick a spouse. By my own standards my husband didn't meet my list, I wanted someone older, he is 2 years younger. I was interested in Asian men, he was white. We have been together 30 years and have a strong marriage. (No I am not in charge, just because people make bad assumptions, it doesn't mean they are true.)All the girls who show interest in me either at Church or in the secular world are always fat.... This is unacceptable to me, please ladies take better care of your health. Also I think women are supposed to show to the men that they are interested (unofficial) then the man can show he is interested (officially) otherwise you can rejection after rejection.
To the person who is so worried about finding someone, I really think the demons are using your worry against you. I am sure there are women, who feel that they will never meet the standards of a Traditional Catholic man.
My only advice is to pray for your chosen spouse (even if you don't know who that is yet) and TRUST God to provide.
For consideration, some of the men who might be having this conversation are in the 21 to 28 age group. If they want an age gap like Aristotle suggested then they are looking at the 2 year olds to 9 years olds. I know men talk in theories with no ill will, but women look at practicalities. I am just saying all this because I want people to understand the frustrations from both sides.
You sound disgruntled, are you an unmarried older man?
There is always meeting women and being told they had no 'chemistry' or they didn't feel a 'spark'.
My chapel has some older people 30+ that aren't married, both men and women. I don't know if they will ever get married, sure the women has it harder in theory, but due to how people perceive age gaps it also makes it difficult for the men to find someone. And some of the younger girls think having boyfriends is ok.... this is an sspx btw but I personally would be less interested in any woman who has already had a boyfriend before me. I just don't the idea of being 2nd to my own wife to another man, even if they haven't kissed. I am disappointing but not surprised some think that secular bf/gf dating is ok.
No man has any desire to force an age gap. The point is, to counter the pickyness and hyper-unrealistic standards of modern women, which has filtered down to Trads. And no, women aren’t using their intuition or their Faith in making relationship decisions. If they were, there would be no problem. Many Trad women are using worldly measures to pick spouses. And because they are so picky, they pass up men they shouldnt have or they end up settling with men they are unhappy with or they dont get married at all. This hurts women more than men but it also hurts society at large. And that’s the purpose of modern propaganda. To destroy good families. Or to prevent them from happening at all.Based
I didn't say anything about 'passionate' kissing.
Passionate kissing is a mortal sin.
Chemistry is for 15 year old girls. Though being attractive enough is a thing.
I think you're kind of proving why there is a maturity issue with most men in their twenties.
No man has any desire to force an age gap. The point is, to counter the pickyness and hyper-unrealistic standards of modern women, which has filtered down to Trads. And no, women aren’t using their intuition or their Faith in making relationship decisions. If they were, there would be no problem. Many Trad women are using worldly measures to pick spouses. And because they are so picky, they pass up men they shouldnt have or they end up settling with men they are unhappy with or they dont get married at all. This hurts women more than men but it also hurts society at large. And that’s the purpose of modern propaganda. To destroy good families. Or to prevent them from happening at all.This is true, but we all are completely responsible for whether we buy into modern propaganda or not. It may make the women act improperly that is on them and their authorities (dad, priest, spouse) to correct. I have a question though are the men being courageous or has the propaganda worked on them to make them feel hopeless?
This is true, but we all are completely responsible for whether we buy into modern propaganda or not. It may make the women act improperly that is on them and their authorities (dad, priest, spouse) to correct. I have a question though are the men being courageous or has the propaganda worked on them to make them feel hopeless?Modern women have these things called --icks-- which is just another term for being OCD and picky. That's a spiritual problem.
Women today are stupidly impulsive. If there’s no chemistry in the first 15 minutes, they lose interest.In 2025, the only ‘chemistry’ 15 year old girls should be having is studying for that upcoming exam in science class!
In 2025, the only ‘chemistry’ 15 year old girls should be having is studying for that upcoming exam in science class!Nobody is talking about 15 year old girls, but adult women 21-35.
Women today are stupidly impulsive. If there’s no chemistry in the first 15 minutes, they lose interest. Talk to any married couple over 40 years old. 9 times out of 10, the woman wasn’t interested at first but went on a few dates anyway. Then they clicked. Nowadays, women expect to have lifelong chemistry in 15 minutes …”just like the movies…”. The immaturity level is off the charts.Yeah this is true, even my priest says that married couples have said something similar.
This is true, but we all are completely responsible for whether we buy into modern propaganda or not. It may make the women act improperly that is on them and their authorities (dad, priest, spouse) to correct. I have a question though are the men being courageous or has the propaganda worked on them to make them feel hopeless?The men can't really do anything because the women don't listen and don't care.
Modern women have these things called --icks-- which is just another term for being OCD and picky. That's a spiritual problem.I am not blaming equally. I am saying if you are not getting what you want or are able to accept what God gives you, then the problem is you. That works for both sexes. Our main purpose in life is union with God. You do that my accepting the world God gave you. I guess aiming for the high ideals is not a thing we do anymore.::)
Has nothing whatsoever to do with men. Though you love to blame everyone equally, which is delusional. Life is not equal.
The men can't really do anything because the women don't listen and don't care.Sounds to me you have already given up. That is the propaganda that men have been given. "Why even try, you are only going to fail."
The men can't really do anything because the women don't listen and don't care.There's a lot of talk in these threads about men being the leaders, which I don't disagree with btw, but things like the above statement tell me that you have no understanding of leadership.
Sounds to me you have already given up. That is the propaganda that men have been given. "Why even try, you are only going to fail."Women have to save their own souls. It's not any man's job to save a random stranger. If a woman won't listen to church morality, or her priest, or her parent's, she's not going to listen to a random stranger. You're delusional.
I am not blaming equally. I am saying if you are not getting what you want or are able to accept what God gives you, then the problem is you. That works for both sexes. Our main purpose in life is union with God. You do that my accepting the world God gave you. I guess aiming for the high ideals is not a thing we do anymore.::)This makes zero sense.
There's a lot of talk in these threads about men being the leaders, which I don't disagree with btw, but things like the above statement tell me that you have no understanding of leadership.It's a man's job to lead those who are in his charge. Outside of this, you can't lead those who don't care.
There have been a number of great leaders throughout history. Study them. One of the first things that you'll learn is that they did not blame the people who they were supposed to lead, as that will get you NOWHERE.
It's a man's job to lead those who are in his charge. Outside of this, you can't lead those who don't care.Then you don't know the first damn thing about leadership. Not surprising as people, including a lot of traddieland, have no skills in this area. Maybe get off the anon forums and learn from those who do.
Then you don't know the first damn thing about leadership. Not surprising as people, including a lot of traddieland, have no skills in this area. Maybe get off the anon forums and learn from those who do.Women barely follow their husbands, but you think a random woman is going to follow the leadership of a random man. :facepalm:
Women have to save their own souls. It's not any man's job to save a random stranger. If a woman won't listen to church morality, or her priest, or her parent's, she's not going to listen to a random stranger. You're delusional.You are correct. You have to save your own soul.
I am not blaming equally. I am saying if you are not getting what you want or are able to accept what God gives you, then the problem is you.This has nothing to do with not accepting God's will. Are you really that close-minded to not understand the problems that society faces when women shun marriage and children? Have you looked at Japan, who is about a decade ahead of us?
This has nothing to do with not accepting God's will. Are you really that close-minded to not understand the problems that society faces when women shun marriage and children? Have you looked at Japan, who is about a decade ahead of us?Yeah and the COVID injection slowly makes people infertile and that altered DNA is passed down through offspring. This is the only way to reduce population as war is simply ineffective.
Feminization = women not having children = demographic apocalpyse. Society will collapse under the weight of a lack of young people to do anything. Which is why the elites are going to use AI to replace humans. They already know what's coming.
This has nothing to do with not accepting God's will. Are you really that close-minded to not understand the problems that society faces when women shun marriage and children? Have you looked at Japan, who is about a decade ahead of us?This looks like a melancholic worrying about the future. You can't control the future and God is allowing it for a future greater good. All things you said might be true but it doesn't change the fact that you have to live through them with Trust in God.
Feminization = women not having children = demographic apocalpyse. Society will collapse under the weight of a lack of young people to do anything. Which is why the elites are going to use AI to replace humans. They already know what's coming.
This looks like a melancholic worrying about the future. You can't control the future and God is allowing it for a future greater good. All things you said might be true but it doesn't change the fact that you have to live through them with Trust in God.It’s not worrying about the future. It’s about seeing the consequences of actions.
It is not about my mind being closed. I am a woman and I have to raise a family and bring comfort to my neighbor. I don't have time to think about all the worries you listed above. I just have to Trust God. (I know I keep saying that, but it is what I am working on and hopefully will be better at soon.)
It’s not worrying about the future. It’s about seeing the consequences of actions.I did not have the tone of lashing out. Stop trying to add emotion that isn't mine. Please explain to me how knowing the above, changes how I live my current Catholic life? How would one prepare differently because they know?
I get that you do t have time to think about such things, but that’s no reason to disparage those who do. It’s immature of you to downplay events which are imminent. This is not something that might happen in 50 years. It w.i.l.l. happen in the next 10-15. It will affect you and your family. No need to lash out at those who are trying to help and warn. :facepalm:
I did not have the tone of lashing out. Stop trying to add emotion that isn't mine. Please explain to me how knowing the above, changes how I live my current Catholic life? How would one prepare differently because they know?Everything is not about you.
Everything is not about you.Never said it was. No male vs female issue here. It is world vs God. You seem to be focused on the world. Look you are basically proving my point anyways. You seem uncomfortable with what I am saying, so then you lash out at me personally. Let me rephrase the question you didn't answer.
The consequences of feminism will affect us all, the entire society, that's the point. Don't minimize this effect and bad-mouth men by saying "just accept God's will". This goes far beyond a male vs female problem. But you seem incapable of grasping this, as you continue to propel the male vs female gender war.
Never said it was. No male vs female issue here. It is world vs God. You seem to be focused on the world. Look you are basically proving my point anyways. You seem uncomfortable with what I am saying, so then you lash out at me personally. Let me rephrase the question you didn't answer.You're changing the topic. Not interested.
Please explain to me how knowing the above, changes how one lives their current Catholic life? How would one prepare differently because they know?
Never said it was. No male vs female issue here. It is world vs God. You seem to be focused on the world. Look you are basically proving my point anyways. You seem uncomfortable with what I am saying, so then you lash out at me personally. Let me rephrase the question you didn't answer.:confused: I'll spell it out for you:
Please explain to me how knowing the above, changes how one lives their current Catholic life? How would one prepare differently because they know?
:confused: I'll spell it out for you::facepalm:
- A lack of marriages are partially due to women being overly-picky.
- A lack of marriages is a societal problem, with very bad consequences, for the Church and society.
- Age-gaps are an example of being overly-picky.
- Realizing that age-gap pickiness is a problem, helps to counter the false-narrative, which helps the Church.
Admitting there is a problem, is the first step to fixing it. As a woman, if you don't admit this is a problem, then you will be unable to help other women see the problem.
This problem is bigger than you. It's about helping society, not just your own, personal catholic life.
:facepalm:
:confused: I'll spell it out for you:This is what I would have said, but I gave up and put the :facepalm: emoji because I knew that whatever I said people were going to twist into a bad emotion and I was frustrated.
- A lack of marriages are partially due to women being overly-picky.
Let's be real men are picky to. The women needs to have never been touched by another man and attractive, perfect weight. Nothing is ever said about her chacter.
- A lack of marriages is a societal problem, with very bad consequences, for the Church and chapter.
I don't disagree with this.
- Age-gaps are an example of being overly-picky.
Maybe, but I really would like a direct quote from me or anyone else on this forum who has said they will not accept an age gap of 12 years for them or their daughter.
- Realizing that age-gap pickiness is a problem, helps to counter the false-narrative, which helps the Church
This is not the only concern. A good Catholic women is more important than the age gap.
Admitting there is a problem, is the first step to fixing it. As a woman, if you don't admit this is a problem, then you will be unable to help other women see the problem.
I try to help women to the best of my ability. It is not fair to automatically assume that I do not do this.
This problem is bigger than you. It's about helping society, not just your own, personal catholic life.
The problem is bigger than all of us. Hence we need to focus on God's will.
I'm not the guys you have been talking to but this is not a response.See post at 943pm. And if you think we are cooked because women won't change, then doesn't that follow that women have more influence than men. I think men have more influence. I think God will back men who stand for Truth. It saddens me that some men don't seem to think this way.
He made the effort to think of a good answer. Structured it well. Explain himself clearly, and all you can do is make fun of it.
Women complain men don't lead, then they do lead by thinking and explaining, and they get this brash pride thrown back in their face.
We are so cooked.
This is what I would have said, but I gave up and put the :facepalm: emoji because I knew that whatever I said people were going to twist into a bad emotion and I was frustrated.
Let's be real men are picky to. The women needs to have never been touched by another man and attractive, perfect weight. Nothing is ever said about her chacter.Every woman is born with her youth and virginity/chastity. It has always been expected that a woman keeps herself for her husband. This is so vital that men instinctively know this. You are strawmanning again. It's not perfect weight, just don't be fat. Her character is always mentioned. Be feminine, be obedient.
Yep. Women aren’t really capable of thinking big-picture and their brainwashing has them interpret such comments from men as either mansplaining or complaining about something you can’t control.
Did this make you feel better to say?
But it IS men’s job to control these problems. Women have the luxury of avoiding these issues?
The language you use confuses me. Is authority about control or leadership? Are those concepts the same thing?
But modern women have been programmed to compete with men, instead of support them, thus when men try to point out problems, women either ignore, minimize or argue.
I don't understand your generalizations and I don't think you are being fair. Women are not only ever doing the wrong thing. What does support look like to you?
Yes, we are cooked.
Which seems like a hopeless statement. And two people are thinking it. How many more agree?
Every woman is born with her youth and virginity/chastity. It has always been expected that a woman keeps herself for her husband. This is so vital that men instinctively know this. You are strawmanning again. It's not perfect weight, just don't be fat. Her character is always mentioned. Be feminine, be obedient.So you are allowed to have a list and if I challenge it, I am strawmanning. If a women has a list, she is too picky. Why the double standard?
My 2 cents, gray. These boys are just that, boys. They're boys that, for some reason, are hell bent on refusing to learn to embrace the problems of life. They refuse to grow up and learn to be men. They'd rather create litanies of doom and despair than spend even one second looking at what good God has done in their life. The choice is theirs. You're not going to argue or discuss them into growing up.
Sometimes, you have to give up on people, not because you don’t care but because they don’t
So you are allowed to have a list and if I challenge it, I am strawmanning. If a women has a list, she is too picky. Why the double standard?No ladies are intentionally ignoring the problem and blaming men. It's the women who dress immodestly not the men, it's the women who have ridiculous standards not the men, it's the women who think age gaps are bad not the men.
So you are allowed to have a list and if I challenge it, I am strawmanning. If a women has a list, she is too picky. Why the double standard?The man's list is realistic with things like weight something that can be changed. But The women's list are far stricter, based on their emotions, influenced by feminism, and on things that can't be changed.
My 2 cents, gray. These boys are just that, boys. They're boys that, for some reason, are hell bent on refusing to learn to embrace the problems of life. They refuse to grow up and learn to be men. They'd rather create litanies of doom and despair than spend even one second looking at what good God has done in their life. The choice is theirs. You're not going to argue or discuss them into growing up.Thank you for your two cents. I do enjoy these discussions. I am not upset or anything. At this point these are just words on a screen and i am hopeful that if it doesn't effect the people i am talking to, which i have no idea how many different voices there are, that maybe someone gets something out of the discussions.
Sometimes, you have to give up on people, not because you don’t care but because they don’t
The man's list is realistic with things like weight something that can be changed. But The women's list are far stricter, based on their emotions, influenced by feminism, and on things that can't be changed.So you are not happy with the people who show you interest. Here is how I see it, you must be a sweet and understanding man. Most women who are fat don't like how they look, you must not make them feel bad about themselves and they feel safe to show interest in you. That says something good about yourself. I think the problem might come in that pretty girls want a more confident rough guy, which by nature you might not be. If you really want to attract thinner girls you might have to lose your sweet caring side and become more of a rebel. I don't know why it works that way it just does. (If I got it wrong, I apologize. There is only so much you can know from simple words in a forum.)
The men have some standards, some men have high standards (and if they don't also meet those high standards that's on them)
But the woman have impossible standards. A fat woman only wanting a slim or muscular guy, an ugly woman only wanting a handsome man, a young woman only wanting a young man.
Out of all the girls that show clear interest in me, they are always overweight, every single time, and i am not fat.
That says something good about yourself. I think the problem might come in that pretty girls want a more confident rough guy, which by nature you might not be. If you really want to attract thinner girls you might have to lose your sweet caring side and become more of a rebel. I don't know why it works that way it just does. (If I got it wrong, I apologize. There is only so much you can know from simple words in a forum.)I think the issue is is that I'm somewhat attractive where a 6/8 girl should consider me on their level depending on if I'm there type. But girls want a man who is greater than them.
The thing is weight does change and a fat girl might just lose the weight, if a guy she likes pays her attention. Maybe look for how she might look if she was thinner.
So you are not happy with the people who show you interest. Here is how I see it, you must be a sweet and understanding man. Most women who are fat don't like how they look, you must not make them feel bad about themselves and they feel safe to show interest in you. That says something good about yourself. I think the problem might come in that pretty girls want a more confident rough guy, which by nature you might not be. If you really want to attract thinner girls you might have to lose your sweet caring side and become more of a rebel. I don't know why it works that way it just does. (If I got it wrong, I apologize. There is only so much you can know from simple words in a forum.)Also fat girls more often than not do not lose weight but gain more. A lady who recently got married was large beforehand but now she has really exploded in mass. I feel so bad for the husband.
The thing is weight does change and a fat girl might just lose the weight, if a guy she likes pays her attention. Maybe look for how she might look if she was thinner.
See post at 943pm. And if you think we are cooked because women won't change, then doesn't that follow that women have more influence than men. I think men have more influence. I think God will back men who stand for Truth. It saddens me that some men don't seem to think this way.
And I have noted that for men :facepalm: this means they are making fun of me. I was not making fun of the poster. I was frustrated. Please do not think you know my intent.
I guess I am anomaly. I just assumed that even though women have lists, they really rely on their intuition (emotion, but the useful part) to pick a spouse. By my own standards my husband didn't meet my list, I wanted someone older, he is 2 years younger. I was interested in Asian men, he was white. We have been together 30 years and have a strong marriage. (No I am not in charge, just because people make bad assumptions, it doesn't mean they are true.)A woman's intuition is based on how she feels about someone, which is also based on physical appearance.
To the person who is so worried about finding someone, I really think the demons are using your worry against you. I am sure there are women, who feel that they will never meet the standards of a Traditional Catholic man.
My only advice is to pray for your chosen spouse (even if you don't know who that is yet) and TRUST God to provide.
For consideration, some of the men who might be having this conversation are in the 21 to 28 age group. If they want an age gap like Aristotle suggested then they are looking at the 2 year olds to 9 years olds. I know men talk in theories with no ill will, but women look at practicalities. I am just saying all this because I want people to understand the frustrations from both sides.
Also fat girls more often than not do not lose weight but gain more. A lady who recently got married was large beforehand but now she has really exploded in mass. I feel so bad for the husband.I also don't know of fat young women that lost weight as they got older, unless they were ill. Why would anyone want to marry someone who at the get go is unable to refuse a second helping of dessert? Why would any woman choose a man who at the get go is unable to refuse an extra "drink for the road"? Both show very poor examples of self discipline
A woman's intuition is based on how she feels about someone, which is also based on physical appearance.I think you have confused me with other people. I have a son in the seminary and my youngest is 9. I had 5 children after age 30.
It's very common to think better of people who are physically attractive. It's normal to excuse the bad things/mistakes they do but for less attractive people it's either neutral or you are more likely to attribute negative aspects due to their appearance.
Also am I the only one that finds it incongruous that gray has been married for 30 years? I could have sworn she was younger with young children, perhaps I was mistaken here?
I think the issue is is that I'm somewhat attractive where a 6/8 girl should consider me on their level depending on if I'm there type. But girls want a man who is greater than them.Thank you for the civil response. I am not sure about a girl wanting a guy who is greater than them. I think this thought is pushed on the internet.
Also it's not Catholic to be a rebel, depending on the sense. And I do have a rough side I just keep to myself mainly because it's prudent. And considering my strong belief I can be considered a "rebel' since I don't fully follow either the sspx, resistance or sedes.
If the slim girls are attracted to me they don't show it. Girls really need to work on their unofficial signalling to men.
Also fat girls more often than not do not lose weight but gain more. A lady who recently got married was large beforehand but now she has really exploded in mass. I feel so bad for the husband.You know stress hormones do do a number on women. The fatness of our society, can also be caused by an overly stressed society.
You have one job as a woman. Be humble. And lady like. It's not hard. You are being asked to change in to the simple way women should be. Namely to take their proper place in society. Both men have to lead and the women step back.Are you older than me? Are you a man or a women? What difficulty have I created?
Not double down, not create difficultly.
You accept somethings, but then you remind me of a child that really takes enormous energy to correct and then demands more energy be put into them! And it's not even our job to correct you, its your husbands and your fathers.
The ":facepalm:" does come across as insulting. Don't do it again.
Like I said the man you spoke to took leadership and you basically showed no respect for it. If he were my son or brother, I would encourage him. Tell him well done. You just proved why so many men just give up.
You know stress hormones do do a number on women. The fatness of our society, can also be caused by an overly stressed society.These hormonally stressed women seem perfectly capable of losing weight after divorce when they are looking a for new man. For Catholics though as divorce is not an option, there are some women who have lost the need to make an effort to please their husband.
And women are much more effected because they are more emotional beings. Someone mentioned the bigger picture and I really think this needs to be taken into account.
These hormonally stressed women seem perfectly capable of losing weight after divorce when they are looking a for new man. For Catholics though as divorce is not an option, there are some women who have lost the need to make an effort to please their husband.Yeah it's called mistaking kindness for weakness. It's like an angry man who is only explosive with his loved ones not other people. Because his loved ones put up with him, which unfortunately makes him treat them with disrespect. It's like the jews who stood against Christ. Had our Lord beaten them down with violence they would have bent the neck nut because He was loving, kind and patient they tried to take advantage of Him. A person does not attack someone they perceive to be bigger and stronger than them unless they are irrational.
Hormones is not an excuse. Women who use hormones as an excuse for their rageful impatience within their families are capable of keeping this in check when others are around them
Yep. Women aren’t really capable of thinking big-picture and their brainwashing has them interpret such comments from men as either mansplaining or complaining about something you can’t control.
Response: Did this make you feel better to say?
These hormonally stressed women seem perfectly capable of losing weight after divorce when they are looking a for new man. For Catholics though as divorce is not an option, there are some women who have lost the need to make an effort to please their husband.You are right, but things are just not simply black and white.
Hormones is not an excuse. Women who use hormones as an excuse for their rageful impatience within their families are capable of keeping this in check when others are around them
Yeah it's called mistaking kindness for weakness. It's like an angry man who is only explosive with his loved ones not other people. Because his loved ones put up with him, which unfortunately makes him treat them with disrespect. It's like the jews who stood against Christ. Had our Lord beaten them down with violence they would have bent the neck nut because He was loving, kind and patient they tried to take advantage of Him. A person does not attack someone they perceive to be bigger and stronger than them unless they are irrational.Yes it is very true that kind people get the short end of the stick. We just have to persevere and remember that all our sufferings, yours, mine, and everyone on CathInfo doesn't add up to much in comparison to what Our Lord suffered for us.
Should prudence be used in speaking truth?
It's not about feeling better, it's about saying the truth. Men and women are not equal; this is a feminist lie.
Should prudence be used in speaking truth?Prudence for what? For stating an obvious fact? Is prudence required if I say that a cat is bigger than a mouse?
Men and women are NOT equals, most people on CathInfo believe that.
Should prudence be used in speaking truth?Only a feminist is offended by the idea that men and women aren't equal. No prudence required.
Men and women are NOT equals, most people on CathInfo believe that.
Only a feminist is offended by the idea that men and women aren't equal. No prudence required.How truth is delivered matters. I am not an unreasonable person and I have asked questions and said things without being mean or derogatory to the people who disagree with me. Is it wrong for me to expect the same kindness? When I find out something is offensive, I stop using it. I have told you men over and over that calling me or anyone on hear feminist is quite offensive. Yes we are all influenced by Feminism, but can't we just start being kind to each other.
Prudence is a virtue which is meant govern actions related to morality. Nowadays, this word has been corrupted to mean it should govern actions according to the emotions of others. Prudence has nothing to do with emotions. This is just more feminist propaganda.
It's not about feeling better, it's about saying the truth. Men and women are not equal; this is a feminist lie.This post called no one a feminist. No prudence required.
It's not about feeling better, it's about saying the truth. Men and women are not equal; this is a feminist lie.
How truth is delivered matters. I am not an unreasonable person and I have asked questions and said things without being mean or derogatory to the people who disagree with me. Is it wrong for me to expect the same kindness? When I find out something is offensive, I stop using it. I have told you men over and over that calling me or anyone on hear feminist is quite offensive. Yes we are all influenced by Feminism, but can't we just start being kind to each other.If you're that offended by words on a screen, you shouldn't be on the internet. If you want to continue to be offended, that's your decision.
Are you older than me? Are you a man or a women? What difficulty have I created?
If you really feel this way and want to make a real affect on me then maybe you should not castigate me in public, instead send a private message, but you decided to have the conversation publicly where no one knows who you are. I find this extremely hypocritical.
I also do not think the message in question showed leadership. Please reference the post and describe all the leadership skills in it. Thank you.
You know maybe try a different approach when talking to men.Coming from a coward who can't even admit who they are. And now you are saying it is my husband's fault. And you wonder why women no longer respect men.
Try apologising more (it shows you are aware that your intelligence and judgment is less than a man - and you are humble enough to see that)
And then also ask instead of tell.
Really though, it's your husbands fault for letting you carry on like this.
If you're that offended by words on a screen, you shouldn't be on the internet. If you want to continue to be offended, that's your decision.I actually don't care if you use the word feminism or feminist any more because all it seems to mean to the one's who use it is that I am a women who lives in 2025.
I actually don't care if you use the word feminism or feminist any more because all it seems to mean to the one's who use it is that I am a women who lives in 2025.Most women are feminists today. If you're not going to self-reflect, and try to improve (as our Faiths calls us to do) that's your decision.
Most women are feminists today. If you're not going to self-reflect, and try to improve (as our Faiths calls us to do) that's your decision.This thread is getting silly. This is guerilla warfare. I am going to go discuss something more interestin.
My 2 cents, gray. These boys are just that, boys. They're boys that, for some reason, are hell bent on refusing to learn to embrace the problems of life. They refuse to grow up and learn to be men. They'd rather create litanies of doom and despair than spend even one second looking at what good God has done in their life. The choice is theirs. You're not going to argue or discuss them into growing up.100% agree. This is also the reason they aren’t attracting a higher caliber of women. Doom, gloom, despair, continual blame and overall negativity is not something any woman wants in general let alone a potential spouse.
Sometimes, you have to give up on people, not because you don’t care but because they don’t
100% agree. This is also the reason they aren’t attracting a higher caliber of women. Doom, gloom, despair, continual blame and overall negativity is not something any woman wants in general let alone a potential spouse.This is gαy bullshit. Most people do not respond well to getting rejected over and over. A man will stop being gloomy when he gets accepted. It's not rocket science.
My 2 cents, gray. These boys are just that, boys. They're boys that, for some reason, are hell bent on refusing to learn to embrace the problems of life. They refuse to grow up and learn to be men. They'd rather create litanies of doom and despair than spend even one second looking at what good God has done in their life. The choice is theirs. You're not going to argue or discuss them into growing up.Boomer response. Men need to grow up. Women can do no wrong. This is why we are where we are. Boomers allowed feminism to run amok, while they were too busy with work, golf, sports and hobbies. Feminism took off with the millennial women. Guess who are the parents of millennials? Boomers.
Sometimes, you have to give up on people, not because you don’t care but because they don’t
Boomer response. Men need to grow up. Women can do no wrong. This is why we are where we are. Boomers allowed feminism to run amok, while they were too busy with work, golf, sports and hobbies. Feminism took off with the millennial women. Guess who are the parents of millennials? Boomers.It really is. Saying men need to grow instead of pointing out the problems in society is such a joke. It's incredibly Jєωιѕн. It's really the boomers who need to grow up. Accept that they fucked up society and kept ignoring the problems they allowed. Now the younger gens call them out and they call it "litanies of doom and despair". Wow I wonder why it's doom and despair. Maybe it's because most people literally cannot afford a place to live? Because most woman are umarriagable? It's certainly despairing for the young to see their future ripped away from them by their elders. It's like that image of Chronos eating his own children. That's the boomers. They can sit and enjoy themselves because they already got the most basic necessities in life, a shelter and family, so no wonder they call it doom and despair, because from their perspective it is. But they have no empathy to understand that that doom and despair is REAL. It's a real problem and pretending it doesn't exist is not what it means to be a man, it's women and children who ignore problems not men. Yet they say we need to grow up. It's like shitting and pissing all over the floor instead of the toilet and telling your children to clean it up, and when they rightfully call you out you tell them to grow up.